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Feb. 16, 2009 6:55 a.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

SVreX wrote:

Trans_Maro wrote:

According to some of his followers "Jesus hates fags!

Do you know Christians who have said this?

I know hundreds, if not thousands, of Christians, and have NEVER heard one of them say this. I have, however, heard many ill-informed Christian haters CLAIM that Christians say it.

My suggestion is that none of His followers have ever said it, and if someone has said it, they are not one of His followers.

Well, there is that goofball Westboro Baptist Church out of Kansas whose followers were protesting at military funerals claiming that god killed them on the battlefield in retribution for the US' leniency toward gays.
Feb. 16, 2009 7:04 a.m. Tim Baxter Online Editor

Westboro is just a bunch of shiny happy people. They just happen to be shiny happy people who give Christians a bad name.
Feb. 16, 2009 8:38 a.m. Duke Dork

SVreX wrote:

Trans_Maro wrote:

According to some of his followers "Jesus hates fags!

Do you know Christians who have said this?

I know hundreds, if not thousands, of Christians, and have NEVER heard one of them say this. I have, however, heard many ill-informed Christian haters CLAIM that Christians say it.

My suggestion is that none of His followers have ever said it, and if someone has said it, they are not one of His followers.

The problem with this attitude is that Fred Phelps and his Legion of Shiny Happy Persons think that they are good Christians. Just like Osama and his rabid followers with the C4 underwear think they are good Muslims.

They believe they are right, and more than that, they believe they are divinely right. And are you going to prove that God didn't appear to Fred Phelps in a burning bush and tell ol' Fred that He really does hate fags?

When you're talking about an invisible, immeasurable, non-understandable God that moves in mysterious ways, how can you - with any authority at all - dispute what He may or may not have said to someone else?
Feb. 16, 2009 8:53 a.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

Yeah, that's the amazing thing. Not all those of a religious bent do these things but man some go OVERBOARD. You should hear my Southern Baptist aunt sometimes.
Feb. 16, 2009 8:59 a.m. SVreX UberDork

Bible.

I'm not disputing it. It stands in contradiction to the character of God as He has revealed Himself.

Mr. Phelps is welcome to take it up with the Almighty.

Ultimately, God doesn't CARE what Mr. Phelps (or me, or anyone else) thinks of themself. What matters is what God judges, and He won't contradict what He has already revealed of Himself.

I don't think God is non-understandable. At least not the part of Him that He has revealed.

To believe that God hates fags is to disbelieve that "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son..." (note- this is past tense, in other words, God loved the world in it's fallen state, he chose to love me as a sinner). I do not believe that God appeared to Mr. Phelps (or anyone) and directly contradicted His own revealed word.

But the bigger question is, if we mostly agree that there are crackpots out there posing as Christians, why blame Christians for their misbehavior? The better option would be to study and learn what Christians ARE, so as to be able to identify the crackpots.
Feb. 16, 2009 9:13 a.m. Duke Dork

I'm saying that you only have your interpretation of the Bible to put up against Phelps's interpretation of the Bible.

Now, I don't think you're a crackpot - but to a dispassionate, logic-based observer, the evidence that you are right is precisely the same as the evidence that Phelps is right. It's completely "he said, she said".
Feb. 16, 2009 9:25 a.m. SVreX UberDork

Then read it for yourself and apply a bit of logic.

There is NO translation of the Bible that says God hates fags.
Feb. 16, 2009 9:27 a.m. Duke Dork

I have read the King James version. I remember the bit about men lying with other men being an abomination. Abominations seemed to be Pretty Bad Things in that book. Maybe I was misinterpreting it.
Feb. 16, 2009 9:34 a.m. DILYSI Dave UltimaDork

Duke wrote:

I have read the King James version. I remember the bit about men lying with other men being an abomination. Abominations seemed to be Pretty Bad Things in that book. Maybe I was misinterpreting it.

Disapproval != Hate.
Feb. 16, 2009 9:39 a.m. ignorant PowerDork

SVreX wrote:

Then read it for yourself and apply a bit of logic.

There is NO translation of the Bible that says God hates fags.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/

but the internets cannot be wrong......
Feb. 16, 2009 9:53 a.m. SVreX UberDork

Ignorant:

Are you asking me to address that seriously?
Feb. 16, 2009 9:57 a.m. SVreX UberDork

Duke wrote:

I have read the King James version. I remember the bit about men lying with other men being an abomination. Abominations seemed to be Pretty Bad Things in that book. Maybe I was misinterpreting it.

There is a big difference between the act and the person.

"God hates fags" is a completely different statement than "God hates sin".
Feb. 16, 2009 10:07 a.m. Tim Baxter Online Editor

Oh yeah, well I'll see your interwebs link and raise you one: http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/
Feb. 16, 2009 10:11 a.m. Duke Dork

DILYSI Dave wrote:

Duke wrote:

I have read the King James version. I remember the bit about men lying with other men being an abomination. Abominations seemed to be Pretty Bad Things in that book. Maybe I was misinterpreting it.

Disapproval != Hate.

No, but Hate = Hate:

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Leviticus 20:13

There's quite a lot of "disapproval" there. I disapprove of a lot of things without wanting to kill them to death. Pretty hard to "hate the sin, love the sinner" after the sinners have already been stoned to death.

In fact, homosexuality is viewed as WORSE than incest, since incest only calls for the perpetrators to be cut off from society, not to be killed. So in other words, have sex with your sister, get exiled, but touch your best friend's peepee, and get stoned to death.

Please do explain how this is mere "disapproval".
Feb. 16, 2009 10:15 a.m. SVreX UberDork

Duke:

You are trying to apply Old Testament law to Christians.

There were no Christians when the Old Testament was written, as Christ had not been born.

Christians are not under the law. They are under grace.

The law illustrates how difficult it is to "save ourselves", and how deep the grace is.

It is not a rulebook for do's and don'ts.
Feb. 16, 2009 10:20 a.m. Duke Dork

The New Testament and the Old Testament are packaged together in one book that says "Holy Bible" on the cover. If you want to cherrypick your parts, then you should reject everything in the Old Testament.

Which is not commonly done among Christians that I have met.
Feb. 16, 2009 10:21 a.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

'Kill them to death'.

Seriously, I understand what you are saying. There are as many interpretations of the Bible as there are people who read it and unfortunately many times people wil use it to justify their personal prejudices.

Not all Christians are that way but that is small consolation to a gay guy who gets his butt beaten by someone who says 'God hates fags and Leviticus 20:13 says I can do this yet still go to heaven'.
Feb. 16, 2009 10:52 a.m. aircooled Dork

To summarize:

To a non-Christian, there is no real way for anyone to say a "moderate" Christian is more Christian than a "wacko" Christian. And realistically, no way for a Christian to do that either.

Why? The same reason you cannot argue religious and non-religious (or one religion to another), faith! In any faith based system, there is no way to PROVE anything, that's the whole point. You might say there is the bible, yes, but even main stream Christianity has declared many exceptions to what it says (e.g. Old Testament stuff), so even that cannot be held as "canon".
Feb. 16, 2009 12:54 p.m. Autolex Reader

how about this...

everyone believe what they want to believe in and BE BERKELEYING NICE TO EACH OTHER!
Feb. 16, 2009 1:05 p.m. Duke Dork

I'm fine with that... too many on the other side of the fence aren't.
Feb. 16, 2009 1:30 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

SVreX wrote:

Ignorant:

Are you asking me to address that seriously?

no dude it was a joke..
Feb. 16, 2009 1:51 p.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

Autolex wrote:

how about this...

everyone believe what they want to believe in and BE BERKELEYING NICE TO EACH OTHER!

It's worked for me so far.
Feb. 16, 2009 2:17 p.m. John Brown MegaDork

A Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Chinese traditionalist, Buddhist, African traditionalist, Sikhist, Juchist, Spiritist, Jew, Baha'ist (?), Jainism, Shinto, Cao Dai, Zoroastrianist, Tenrikyon, Paganist, Unitarian, Rastafarian and Scientologist walk into a repair facility... The guy working at the couter screams "Praise GRIP!"
Feb. 16, 2009 2:38 p.m. Toyman01 New Reader

I don't usually get into these discussions but you guys seem to want to know...

A few verses with my personal interpretation(subject to being wrong because I am human):

"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you."

If I stone someone for their sins then I will be stoned for my sins.

"Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this-- not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way."

It is not our place to judge others, nor should we be against them in any way.

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

If I do not judge you for sinning I will not be judged for sinning. If I forgive you, I will be forgiven by the Lord.

He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.

The Lord will be the Judge

"God will judge both the righteous man and the wicked man,"

The Lord is the only Judge.

Mr Phleps was mistaken. The Lord is the only Judge. It is not a Christians place to Judge or condemn anyone. To be a Christian is to try to live your life as Jesus lived his. Teach those who want to listen(want being the operative word), be kind to all no matter whether you agree with the way they live their lives or not.(all being the operative word)

To use the Bible as a weapon to punish the "sinners" is to be no better than satan. It is done by people who want to control others. That is not what Jesus taught.

You can not pick and choose the verses you want to believe. The Bible needs to be taken as a whole. Until you know and understand all of it as the Lord does, you have no right to believe you are any better than the "gay" guy next to you on the buss or the "whore" down the street. You also have no right to judge them or anyone.
Feb. 16, 2009 2:53 p.m. John Brown MegaDork

I will be condemned to pay out the ass at a dealership for eternity?

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