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  Aug. 28, 2008 9:01 p.m. SVreX UltraDork

  I haven't disappeared. Just deep soul searching trying to figure out how to say something of meaning.

  I realize the question I was asked was, "Why Christianity?" (as opposed to other religions). Wrapped up in that question for me is the question, "Why believe in God?". They are intrinsically tied together, and I simply can't separate them. I spent a lot of time as an Atheist, and it is difficult to not hear, "Why Christianity, as opposed to Atheism, which makes so much more sense?". Forgive me if I get off base- I'll try not to get preachy.

  I'm not going to make a long speech. No one would read it anyway, and I'm not sure I can summarize 20 years of study. I'll just offer a couple of tidbits- bullet points. Call them food for thought.

  I've come to believe the vast majority of people who claim to be Christians are probably not. I'm not judging them (that's someone else's job), I am simply exercising discernment. Unfortunately, this large group of people who are cultural christians (born into a particular faith, practicing particular traditions, but no real understanding of Christianity) give a VASTLY incorrect view of what Christianity is to non-believers, and I think people are right to disapprove of it.
  

  Christianity has been mis-represented by cultural christians, and a lot of people have the wrong idea- they've bought the lie.

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  Aug. 28, 2008 9:09 p.m. SVreX UltraDork

  Mr Joshua:

  I think I partly addressed your point on what a pain Christians are in my above post. I think you also implied an inherent hypocrisy which you find distasteful.

  All I can say to this is that I agree.
  

  I was once told that before I go into a situation, I would be wise to define the limits of my own hypocrisy. I try to do this most of the time, and find myself more tolerant of other's hypocrisies when I do.

  Knowing you personally, it is difficult for me to accept that a mind as intricate, unique, beautiful, and creative as yours was the result of random chance.

• 

  Aug. 28, 2008 9:20 p.m. Canute New Reader

  jamscal wrote:

  Salanis wrote:

  jamscal wrote:

  I think our last pope said that Christianity isn't the only way into heaven, so at least us Catholics have caught up with the times. :)

  Isn't that kind of counter to the core tenets of Christianity? How exactly does it work that Jesus is the only way into heaven and Jesus is not the only way into heaven?

  ^^^Example of how you'll never please everyone :)

  I'm not up on the exact theology, but they recognize that everyone is not going to have access to proper training :) yet can still be good people...i.e. that Christ is present where good is present.

  The criticism of religion in this thread, however valid some of it is, ignores the complexity, beauty and depth of Christianity, and reads like what I "learned" as a freshman in college, where angry criticism of religion, esp. Catholicism, has been popular for some time now.

  Case in point, the stem cell and abortion debates. It's not two shiny happy persons who know nothing of medicine or women making a pronouncement and snickering at the resulting carnage.

  That is the prevailing view, it seems.

  It is rather a bunch of church scholars concerned about the sanctity of human life. Overall, and with a view that there is something larger than prolonging the inevitable (for all of us) at all costs.

  Yes, it is based on the Catechism, but there are complex reasons (well reasoned) for their views.

  -James

  That is just insulting and condescending. "Oh, you little people aren't indoctrinated enough to an opinion." So the rest of society has to wait for the High Priests to get their heads around the fact that we're not Neolithic goat herders any more to "be allowed" to move forward? Then when they have decided what to allow and tell us so from on high, then it's okay?

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  Aug. 28, 2008 10:00 p.m. JohnSSC New Reader

  Wow!

  This is some thread!

  Just a few comments...

  I think the most interesting part of this discussion is that most folks here (SVreX excepted, for sure) did not choose their religion - they were born into it. Most of the posters who are monists/deists/atheists at some point chose to do so.

  I think this is the crux of the issue. When one chooses something, they make that decision based on a set of preferences that are both inborn (things that are inherited preferences so to speak from our ancestors) and then there are the preferences from the things we pick up along the way through books, music, education, relationships, whatever.

  Now, bear with me here, with our religion being more or less conferred upon us in much the same fashion as our nationality (through birth), the notion of being a Christian (or whatever) in reality becomes how one defines oneself more than it becomes how one defines a religious world view. Sure, if you are asked you would answer brightly: "I am a Christian!" It is not as if you started out with a tabula rasa of sorts and evaluated different religions - Christianity is simply what you know. You have never had the desire to "be" something else.

  You therefore spend your time coming up with reasons to remain Christian or maintain the status quo rather than question Christianity. It is, after all what you know; who you are. It is the community you belong to. Why would you want to separate yourself from "your community" by leaving it to become something else? By becoming something else, are you not saying that somehow you are not only dis-satisfied with your community but also with yourself? Personally I do not believe that would be the case as I would view it as a person being introspective and seeking the truth or at least what is for them the truth - knowing that they could find themselves somewhat alienated from their peers this is a rather brave undertaking indeed!

  I think for most people, "defending the faith" is more an act of "defending my place in the community" than anything else.

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  Aug. 28, 2008 10:22 p.m. SVreX UltraDork

  What do I see different about Christianity than other religions?
  

  It is the only faith I am aware of that is not ultimately based on my works. I can't do enough, or pray enough, or fast enough, or be holy enough to please God. And Christianity doesn't suggest I can. It suggests that only God can do it for me.

  It is not about making anyone or anything a deity. It is about having a relationship with a living God.

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  Aug. 28, 2008 10:25 p.m. SVreX UltraDork

  Here's a thought- Who is Jesus?

  He claimed to be God. That's a pretty big claim- I didn't know how to respond to that.

  There are only 3 conclusions:

  Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or he was who He said he was- God incarnate.

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  Aug. 28, 2008 10:27 p.m. SVreX UltraDork

  Many of you seem offended when Christians proselytize. I would suggest that you consider it a compliment. It evidences that they care about you, and are trying to practice what they believe deeply. To most, it is the most uncomfortable thing to do in the world. But it is a basic tenant of their belief, and to not do so would show that they are hypocrites and do not really care. Just smile.

  If I saw a child standing in the street and truly believed the oncoming truck was going to hit them, I would run into traffic and grab them, regardless of how well I knew them, or whether they wanted me to help.

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  Aug. 28, 2008 10:39 p.m. SVreX UltraDork

  That should give quite a bit of ammo! Time for me to crash- I'll be back in a couple of days.

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  Aug. 28, 2008 11:39 p.m. GregTivo New Reader

  SVreX wrote:

  Here's a thought- Who is Jesus?

  He claimed to be God. That's a pretty big claim- I didn't know how to respond to that.

  There are only 3 conclusions:

  Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or he was who He said he was- God incarnate.

  I take it you've read the original aramaic scribed directly from someone who listened to him preach?

  Or are you trusting the translation of an interpretation of a translation of the copy of a translated version of the original author interpreting the oral history passed on 3 generations after the death of Mr. Christ like the rest of us?

  Now, if your argument is that God directed the hand of each of these authors so we know exactly what Jesus did or did not claim so these stories are 100% accurate, I'll accept that, as long as I know that's what you're claiming.

  Just clarifying.

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  Aug. 28, 2008 11:55 p.m. GregTivo New Reader

  SVreX wrote:

  Many of you seem offended when Christians proselytize. I would suggest that you consider it a compliment. It evidences that they care about you, and are trying to practice what they believe deeply. To most, it is the most uncomfortable thing to do in the world. But it is a basic tenant of their belief, and to not do so would show that they are hypocrites and do not really care. Just smile.

  If I saw a child standing in the street and truly believed the oncoming truck was going to hit them, I would run into traffic and grab them, regardless of how well I knew them, or whether they wanted me to help.

  I'm not offended at all when proselytizing Christians warn me that I'm going to hell. I'm offended when they yell at me from street corners and then invade my personal space to tell me I'm going to hell.

  Also, I'm glad you'd jump in front of a bus to save a child, however, my eternal soul is not about to be run over by a bus. It may or may not burn in hell for all eternity, which neither of us can be 100% sure of (btw, I'm putting all my money on "not"), so there are limits to how far you can go to try and save me. You may ask me if I'd like to talk about God, but if I say no, realize that "No means no" and respect my wishes. There may be times I might enjoy a lively debate, especially if we get to start quoting the Bible (which I hope to brush up on soon enough), so fear not that your message won't get heard. Just treat me as you'd like to be treated if I wanted to talk to you about something you didn't want to talk about (let's say politics or the science of feather dusting)

  Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you and that solves most of the world's problems.

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  Aug. 28, 2008 11:55 p.m. GregTivo New Reader

  SVreX wrote:

  That should give quite a bit of ammo! Time for me to crash- I'll be back in a couple of days.

  See you in a couple days. :)

• 

  Aug. 29, 2008 7:24 a.m. jamscal HalfDork

  Canute wrote:

  jamscal wrote:

  Salanis wrote:

  jamscal wrote:

  I think our last pope said that Christianity isn't the only way into heaven, so at least us Catholics have caught up with the times. :)

  Isn't that kind of counter to the core tenets of Christianity? How exactly does it work that Jesus is the only way into heaven and Jesus is not the only way into heaven?

  ^^^Example of how you'll never please everyone :)

  I'm not up on the exact theology, but they recognize that everyone is not going to have access to proper training :) yet can still be good people...i.e. that Christ is present where good is present.

  The criticism of religion in this thread, however valid some of it is, ignores the complexity, beauty and depth of Christianity, and reads like what I "learned" as a freshman in college, where angry criticism of religion, esp. Catholicism, has been popular for some time now.

  Case in point, the stem cell and abortion debates. It's not two shiny happy persons who know nothing of medicine or women making a pronouncement and snickering at the resulting carnage.

  That is the prevailing view, it seems.

  It is rather a bunch of church scholars concerned about the sanctity of human life. Overall, and with a view that there is something larger than prolonging the inevitable (for all of us) at all costs.

  Yes, it is based on the Catechism, but there are complex reasons (well reasoned) for their views.

  -James

  That is just insulting and condescending. "Oh, you little people aren't indoctrinated enough to an opinion." So the rest of society has to wait for the High Priests to get their heads around the fact that we're not Neolithic goat herders any more to "be allowed" to move forward? Then when they have decided what to allow and tell us so from on high, then it's okay?

  I disagree. First of all, I had a smile where I said you little people don't have enough training :) :) :)

  Second of all. Here's my opinion about the church telling us things from on high:

  I have a religion with which I agree, even if I don't follow every tenet, don't agree with some, or don't understand some.

  I do believe they consider all sorts of moral, ethical and legal issues, and are in general very well educated. They consider them based on a faith I agree with.

  I thus defer some judgement to them on issues I don't have enough information on, or don't directly affect my life, etc..

  An analogy (probably a bad one) would be consulting a lawyer. You don't know him very well, you may not like his every move, but you are paying him for knowledge and judgement you don't possess, and further, you are putting your faith in him.

  And yes, it may turn out you made a bad choice, but we humans have a limited time to choose, or not.

  Re: Spreading the faith. I think the best way is to be a good person, with a positive attitude, and let that be your advertisement.

  I get freaked out by some of these uber-Christians too. :)

  -James

• 

  Aug. 29, 2008 9:15 a.m. GameboyRMH Dork

  Canute wrote: My argument against creation is that our flawed bodies were supposed to be patterned on a perfect being. Take my appendix (please!) It is unnecessary for our survival. A perfect being would not have one, so why do we? It does not compute :).

  Other examples of things in nature which DO NOT suggest creation by a benevolent god, IMO:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagas_disease

  Summary: A disease where parasites basically infest your whole body, slowly consuming you and replacing your organ's tissues with scar tissue until something important craps out and you die. The kicker? The method of infection. A bug bites you and poops on you, its poop containing the parasite. When you scratch, poop is smeared into the bite wound, infecting you, so you live out the remainder of your days knowing you infected yourself with this and it could have been avoided if you just didn't carelessly scratch yourself. Spreads by blood transfusion also.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botfly

  Botfly maggots are straight out of a sci-fi/horror movie.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scolopendra_gigantea

  Centipedes are straight out of a sci-fi/horror movie.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candiru

  Enough said.

• 

  Aug. 29, 2008 9:41 a.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

  I started life as a Christian, basically because my mom is. She's a staunch Southern Baptist, as is everyone on her side of the family. At one time, she took my brothers and I to a Mehodist church because that was the closest thing to our house and I understand that caused a lot of friction on her side of the family. At any rate, my brothers and I went to church every Sunday.

  I have a distant uncle on her side who is a preacher, I do not recall the denomination. I do know that he runs a church somewhere in Maine. His son (my cousin) made sure to corner me on the first visit they ever made to us to make sure that I had received Jesus as my personal savior. I was maybe 7, he was maybe 9. I was already going to church with my mom, I saw no harm in doing what he asked. One year later they came back through town and he wanted to take me through the whole thing AGAIN. Then my distant uncle preacher did the same thing on the same visit. No, that's not code for some weird sex thing.
  

  Anyway, I remember wondering just how many times they were going to make me accept Jesus etc. At the time just thought they were forgetful. I now realize that there was a vast difference of opinion on that side of my family as to the true path to salvation; they wanted me to split away from my mom's faith and follow theirs. That got me to thinking about all the different types of Christianity and made me begin to question a lot of it in my preteen years.

  About the time I became a teenager, I started reading a lot of science fiction. It's always intrigued me and it was interesting to see other views on religion and deities than just what I was taught in church. (My dad says that is what made me an atheist; actually, many SF stories are based in religious themes and support same.) This led me to science itself and I began to see the wonderful interconnectedness of life and also to understand the effects of just plain old random chance. The churches told me 'don't question or you will burn in hell' and science told me 'always question, you'll learn something'.

  Being a hardheaded realist (I didn't really see that then but I do now), I found that I simply could not accept that there were limits imposed on what we could learn by a jealous God. I discovered that some zealots had even claimed that launching spaceships to further our knowledge of the cosmos was a sure path to damnation for all of humanity. When spaceships were lanuched and we didn't all go up in a breath of fire from a vengeful deity, to me that was pretty plain that the zealots were wrong.

  I could not leave this warring in myself, religion vs. hard science, I had to go one way or the other or drive myself nuts. So I went with the side which had the most evidence to support it and also promised the greatest knowledge rewards.

  I gotta go back to work, there's more but I'll post it later.

• 

  Aug. 29, 2008 9:49 a.m. belteshazzar Dork

  SVreX wrote:

  I've come to believe the vast majority of people who claim to be Christians are probably not. I'm not judging them (that's someone else's job), I am simply exercising discernment. Unfortunately, this large group of people who are cultural christians (born into a particular faith, practicing particular traditions, but no real understanding of Christianity) give a VASTLY incorrect view of what Christianity is to non-believers, and I think people are right to disapprove of it.
  

  Christianity has been mis-represented by cultural christians, and a lot of people have the wrong idea- they've bought the lie.

  qft.

  c.s. lewis said it.

  "many people have been exposed to just enough Christianity to inoculate them against the real thing. ."

• 

  Aug. 29, 2008 10:35 a.m. aircooled Dork

  GregTivo wrote: ...Also, I'm glad you'd jump in front of a bus to save a child, however, my eternal soul is not about to be run over by a bus...

  I think the anology may be more akin to:

  They are tackling a person on a sidewalk because of an anvil they see falling from the sky.

  Not a lot of people appreciate being bowled over to protect them from Wile E Coyote attacks... some of us are not quite that big of Road Runner fans (unless they have a Hemi of course...)

• 

  Aug. 29, 2008 10:42 a.m. Duke Dork

  belteshazzar wrote:

  SVreX wrote:

  I've come to believe the vast majority of people who claim to be Christians are probably not.

  qft.

  c.s. lewis said it.

  "many people have been exposed to just enough Christianity to inoculate them against the real thing. ."

  And many Muslims say that Muslim extremists aren't real Muslims, etc. etc. etc. I've heard it a million times. But I bet the vast majority of all religious people consider themselves "real" what ever it is they are. I'm sure there are some cynical manipulators who realize they are being false and are in it for their own reasons... but I'm fairly sure that most do not fall into that category.

• 

  Aug. 29, 2008 11:13 a.m. Salanis Dork

  SVreX wrote:

  What do I see different about Christianity than other religions?
  

  It is the only faith I am aware of that is not ultimately based on my works. I can't do enough, or pray enough, or fast enough, or be holy enough to please God. And Christianity doesn't suggest I can. It suggests that only God can do it for me.

  It is not about making anyone or anything a deity. It is about having a relationship with a living God.

  Let me see if I understand you. I am not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm trying to clarify and see if my understanding of your position is correct. It sounds like you're saying you chose to be Christian because:

  You believe there is a God. You believe there is only one God, that God is personal, and that we are separate beings from it. You believe that we are inherently flawed and that there is no way for us to redeem ourselves through our own actions because everyone is always too busy berkeleying little things up, and so the only way to be redeemed is through external intervention.

  Okay, here are the parts I'm going to make a bit of a leap about:

  It sounds like your interest in Christianity is not that much about Jesus Christ as an incarnated savior. Is it safe to say that, you might have chosen another similar monotheistic religion (Judaism, Islam, etc.), but gravitated towards Christianity because it covered the core tenets of your belief, and you were culturally familiar enough with it to have an intuitive grasp of most of it. And that you do not think other, similar, religions are wrong if they agree with the core of your belief (external deity; flawed humans), but you do not understand them enough to say that they are right, which you are able to say about Christianity.

  Is that pretty close?

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  Aug. 29, 2008 11:24 a.m. Salanis Dork

  SVreX wrote:

  Here's a thought- Who is Jesus?

  He claimed to be God. That's a pretty big claim- I didn't know how to respond to that.

  There are only 3 conclusions:

  Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or he was who He said he was- God incarnate.

  There is a fourth option, which is the Monist/quasi-Buddhist one.

  If you believe that we are all unified with the cosmic-all-whatever that is commonly referred to as "God", than he was an incarnation of God... but only different from the rest of us in his degree that he understood and lived that connection.

  Jesus would then be "the Christ" in much the same way that Siddhartha Gautama was "the Buddha". Siddhartha recognized his own Buddha nature, and tried to open others to understand that they were all part of the same greater divinity.

  There is the other option mentioned, which is that he was just misquoted or taken out of context over succeeding generations.

  I read a passage from an interesting version of the Bible a while back. This version had footnotes with literal interpretations of earlier text that it had been translated from. The famous passage referring to Jesus as the "only begotten son of God" had an interesting footnote. The literal interpretation of that was "unique son of God". Woah! Subtle, but very different.

• 

  Aug. 29, 2008 11:40 a.m. Duke Dork

  I'm honestly not just busting your chops here. We're trying to understand, and while I realize that you're putting your faith out for inspection and that takes effort, your posts didn't explain much. You owe us nothing, but you owe it to yourself to have a crystal clear understanding of your choices.

  SVreX wrote:

  There are only 3 conclusions:

  Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or he was who He said he was- God incarnate.

  Examining history and evidence, probability overwhelmingly indicates that Jesus was some combination of the first two (at least on the subject of his divinity). After all, how many actual, proven children of god have there been in recorded history? Zero. How many liars and lunatics? A very large number.

  So why choose Door #3?

  This is not to say that Jesus was lying or insane on all subjects. Of course, many of the basic ideas he tried to spread are sound and reasonable. I'm merely referring to the subject of divinity here.

  SVreX wrote:

  If I saw a child standing in the street and truly believed the oncoming truck was going to hit them, I would run into traffic and grab them, regardless of how well I knew them, or whether they wanted me to help.

  I've heard this argument in numerous forms, and it doesn't hold water. The fundamental difference is this: Only you can see the truck, and there is zero guarantee that you're not hallucinating. If it were a real truck and others were just not looking, that's one thing - if you called their attention to it, ALL would see the truck, and agree the child needed to be saved.

  But it's NOT a real truck (or cliff, or wave, or whatever analogy). You've got no way to insist that it is. So the rest of us just see a kid crossing the street or playing on a nice lawn.

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  Aug. 29, 2008 12:13 p.m. Salanis Dork

  Duke wrote:

  Examining history and evidence, probability overwhelmingly indicates that Jesus was some combination of the first two (at least on the subject of his divinity). After all, how many actual, proven children of god have there been in recorded history? Zero. How many liars and lunatics? A very large number.

  So why choose Door #3?

  I saw a book a while back, I should have picked it up to read it, but I skimmed it and got the gist of the premise. Basically what the book was looking at was how all of the miracles attributed to Jesus have their origins from Greco-Roman and/or Egyptyian mythology. It looked at the history of how these myths were folded into the story of Jesus in order to sell the new religion to the intellectual elite they were trying to convert.

  For example:

  Virgin born, son of God: How many virgins did Zeus, et al., come to earth and shag in order to produce super-babies?

  Water into wine: strait up Dionysius.

  Dying in the winter for the sins of the world, descending into the underworld, rising into heaven three days later: is incredibly common in lots of mythologies. I believe Ra is one of the prime examples of this.

  Far more likely that other attributed more grandiosity to him than he did to himself.

  I say, "Follow the SHOE!"

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  Aug. 29, 2008 12:22 p.m. GlennS HalfDork

  NO THE GOURD, FOLLOW THE GOURD!

  http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/brian-17.htm

• 

  Aug. 29, 2008 12:27 p.m. Duke Dork

  I thought you meant follow this Gord. I could get behind that.

• 

  Aug. 29, 2008 1:21 p.m. fastEddie Dork

  I've been silent so far but think it's time to chime in a bit here while SVreX takes a breather.

  My beliefs appear to be almost identical to SVreX's - that is you can't work your way to heaven, the only way there is through the simple acceptance of Christ's death on the cross for your sins (no, it can't be THAT simple can it? Yes it can and is; why is it so hard to accept?) and nothing else, not child or adult baptism or good works or anything else will get you in thru those pearly gates. I also believe faith without works is dead but that still won’t change your salvation thru Christ once accepted. I believe Jesus Christ was and is the one true Son of God and not a liar or a lunatic and that he lived a perfect sinless life here on earth for about 33 years before dying on a cross for my sins.

  I also believe that the Bible in its current state is the inerrant Word of God. Yes it has been through translations and evolutions of languages over the centuries and there is lots of muddled history over parts being added or removed over the years (mostly by the Vatican whom I question to call “Christian” anymore – see my abbreviated list of Christian tenants above) but it all comes down to the single main difference between religion and science – FAITH.
  

  In my opinion it takes much more intestinal fortitude, personal strength, confidence or whatever you want to call it to believe something without evidence and act/live accordingly upon it than it does to only believe once you see the evidence (doubting Thomas anyone?). I’m not saying there is anything wrong with science or hard evidence but I think we all could use to be a bit more humble when it comes to science and what we call absolute and remember that we have only been at this a few thousand years and who’s to say we simply haven’t tested our scientific laws enough to find out they aren’t as firm as we thought they were? Remember the universe is Billions and Billions of years old versus our couple thousand years of scientific study, right?! ;-) Kidding aside and ignoring how it got started for the moment, when you look at the entire universe and how complex and huge it all is compared to little old us, I can’t help but think we don’t know jack in the grand scheme of things and likely won’t even if we have another couple of thousand of years but this is just my small humble opinion.

  Another reason I have hesitated to speak up in this discussion is because, honestly, I’m a pretty weak Christian and will be the first to ashamedly admit I don’t spend nearly enough time reading my Bible, praying or simply thinking about why I believe what I believe. This I think is a downside to being raised in a Christian home – you tend to take things for granted (some call this brainwashing) but even after you have consciously made a decision for yourself regarding your faith it is still easy to fall back into routine or think I know enough, etc. and not keep reading and learning. So with that in mind, thanks guys for asking questions and forcing me to think. I’m not saying I’ll have an answer or response to everything but if nothing else your questions are making me think and ultimately making me stronger in my faith.

• 

  Aug. 29, 2008 1:32 p.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

  ^^ A perfect example of the understanding and acceptance possible.

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