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Login to post Forums » Off-topic discussion » An Engineer that can't do math

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Oct. 13, 2010 8:52 p.m. cxhb HalfDork

FlightService wrote:

As an engineer, I resemble most of these comments and have experienced even more.

I didn't get an A in a math class till college, the professor was a PhD in Math with a BS in ME and a MS in EE. He would explain things in real world terms.

I became an engineer because when I was working on cars I got feed up with the obvious designs from people that have never seen under the hood of a car.

I worked on a project as an undergrad and one of my colleague's room mate was a Masters student in Electrical Engineering. He could figure out how to change the battery in his Accord.

My company won't hire 4.0 graduates because of lack of real world experiences and knowledge.

Why the seemingly random posts about my career/life experiences?

Engineers are given a very broad education. Doing well in school is one thing but doing well in the real world is another. Some engineers border on scientists others border on mechanics/maintenance. Some are in the middle.

If they went to a decent school they should have learned at least this fundamental caveat of engineering.

Your education and background are just "tools" to accomplish your tasks. Nothing replaces good judgement.

THIS. This is the truth... As an engineering student I see people all the time that can solve problems on paper that would take me twice as long and maybe even need a tutor...

I struggle with math at times. But I try. And I keep trying until I get it. The past two weeks I have averaged about 4 hours of sleep a night between physics II, calculus II and applied strengths of materials. It's hard and I love what Im doing. But I love applying things I learn to real world application even more. I think to a degree thats what makes the difference...
Oct. 13, 2010 9:02 p.m. Wayslow Reader

volvoclearinghouse wrote:

cghstang wrote:

I'm an engineer who is mediocre at math and pretty good at lot's of things other than math. I hope you fellas are spelling things wrong on purpose for the sake of ironic humor.

ignorant said:
...ability in his little tow than most...

DrBoost said:
I once had a loooon and spirited discussion

This won is the best
volvoclearinghouse said:

I don't know...every single member of our 24 Hours of Lemons team is an engineer. And we just one first in our class at the fall South race.

In my defense, I hadn't had my coffee yet. Besides, I was claiming we were good engineers, not good grammaticians. :-P

The old standby is " I used to couldn't spell Engineer now I are one" . It's always served me well.
Oct. 13, 2010 9:24 p.m. Apexcarver SuperDork

cxhb wrote:

I struggle with math at times. But I try. And I keep trying until I get it. The past two weeks I have averaged about 4 hours of sleep a night between physics II, calculus II and applied strengths of materials. It's hard and I love what Im doing. But I love applying things I learn to real world application even more. I think to a degree thats what makes the difference...

I was in those shoes just the other year. Differential Equations just about was the end of me (nasty prof).

I am REALLY looking forward to graduating in the spring.

Problem is that I seem to be a masochist and am putting in applications to get a masters degree in Materials Science.
Oct. 13, 2010 11:00 p.m. Knurled HalfDork

MikeSVO wrote:

I hate 'engineer' types! They might be able to solve ANY problem you ask them to solve, but from what I've seen, 9 times out of 10, they can't properly assess the situation and solve the CORRECT problem. They'll fix something, but you'll still have your problem.

Engineers on their own are virtually useless. They're cogs on a gear - they need other non-enginner type to work with to be effective.

I wonder how much of this has to do with the educational curriculum.

Here's an interesting read: http://www.yarchive.net/metal/mit.html
Oct. 13, 2010 11:24 p.m. 96DXCivic SuperDork

I do fairly well in my engineering classes but I try to get involved in the clubs on campus. I am now the team lead of the Formula SAE team at my school. It amazes me sometimes how little grasp on reality some engineering students have. They just past thru classes and never try to learn anything otherside the classroom.
Oct. 14, 2010 12:25 a.m. cxhb HalfDork

Apexcarver wrote:

cxhb wrote:

I struggle with math at times. But I try. And I keep trying until I get it. The past two weeks I have averaged about 4 hours of sleep a night between physics II, calculus II and applied strengths of materials. It's hard and I love what Im doing. But I love applying things I learn to real world application even more. I think to a degree thats what makes the difference...

I was in those shoes just the other year. Differential Equations just about was the end of me (nasty prof).

I am REALLY looking forward to graduating in the spring.

Problem is that I seem to be a masochist and am putting in applications to get a masters degree in Materials Science.

Ah hooray! I'll be in differential equations next semester. Hope I get a good professor... My professor at the moment is one of the best professors I have ever had. He and another I had prior are the only two people who actually put things into perspective, and into ways that are easy for people to understand rather than just throw theorems and proofs at you.
Oct. 14, 2010 12:28 a.m. cxhb HalfDork

96DXCivic wrote:

I do fairly well in my engineering classes but I try to get involved in the clubs on campus. I am now the team lead of the Formula SAE team at my school. It amazes me sometimes how little grasp on reality some engineering students have. They just past thru classes and never try to learn anything otherside the classroom.

I see people like that everyday. Makes me wonder how they will do in a work environment. Im hoping to do the 2011 (more likely 2012) challenge with fellow engineering students to get more students involved in hands on work/thinking/problem solving. I looked into my schools Formula SAE program but they cancelled it and picked up Formula Baja a couple years back... I wasnt really interested.
Oct. 14, 2010 5:58 a.m. aeronca65t Dork

I teach MET (Mechanical Engineering Technology) in a community college here in NJ.

MET programs are a great option for students who prefer more applied engineering (as opposed to Engineering Science). MET has a reduced math component compared to a regular ME program. All our kids take a Prototyping and CIM (CNC) class in our MET lab (basically, a pretty nice machine shop). Also, lots of CAD,a material science class, plus Statics, Physics I and II, etc. The highest math level for two-year MET students is Applied Calc (mostly just algebra / trig).

There are lots of four-year schools with MET programs too. NJIT has a strong program (where most of my guys transfer to). Purdue has an excellent MET program. Students in these programs graduate with a BSMET......as opposed to a BSME for "regular" (engineering science) mechanical engineering programs.

We often suggest that our engineering science students take some of the more hands-on MET classes if they have the time (even though these classes aren't required and won't count towards graduation). I have several engineering science students in my Prototyping class right now. I believe it will make them better engineers.

By the way, I do grade for spelling on lab reports.
Oct. 14, 2010 6:40 a.m. DILYSI Dave SuperDork

BSMET here. Math thru Integral Calculus. Didn't enjoy it. The guys the next year got to enjoy Diff EQ.

It's a really useful degree. There is some bias in the workplace against it, especially on the part of ME's, but I generally just astound them with my performance and that shuts them up pretty good. :)
Oct. 14, 2010 7:06 a.m. volvoclearinghouse Reader

I wish I could have been more involved with hands-on activities at RPI such as the Mini Baja and Mini Indy, but they were EXTREMELY popular programs and mostly filled with upper classmen who knew somebody. I was chief engineer of the college radio station (WRPI) for a year (a strange occupation for an ME who doesn't get along well with electrons) and pretty active in the on-campus student-run auto shop. I have fond memories of rebuilding the Rochester on my Suburban and subsequently doing donuts in the parking lot with the new-found power, and evading campus police in my non-legal BMW 2002. I once built a go-kart out of a scrapped lawn tractor (and got into more trouble with campus police while speed testing it). I believe more engineering and technical schools should field LeMons and Challenge teams.

I did meet students who admitted to having no desire to engage in anything hands-on; one fellow even bluntly told me he was doing engineering because he was good at math and the money was promising. Ha!

I think a part of the problem may be the stigma in academia against working with your hands. There seems to be this idea that you can't be a greasemonkey and be intelligent. I would go so far as to say that seems to be the prevailing attitude in this country as a whole. It used to be a plumber, electrician, or auto mechanic was a respected tradesman who earned an honest living and was skilled in his trade. Now all you hear from the government on down is that everyone's got to go to college and get some liberal arts or business degree. Why? My dad even tried to talk me into getting a Master's in business. I got my MS in Mechanical Engineering. I don't mind business, but its not what I'm good at, its not my passion. And I did a heckuva lot better in engineering grad school than I ever did in undergrad, because the curriculum was more practical (work experience helped a lot, too)
Oct. 14, 2010 7:48 a.m. alfadriver SuperDork

In reply to volvoclearinghouse:

I think this country does a good job at down playing smart people with good degrees from great schools, too. I know my home state of Idaho does.

So your are bad if you are a person who works with your hands, and you are bad if you work with your brain. What does that leave?

One note- on the engineering tech programs- the problem with those is that you end up working FOR engineers. Some of us know a lot, and respect your creativity, sure. Some of us are so arrogant in our education that we don't belive anything anyone tells us unless they got a higher degree from a higher school.

As for those of you getting into engineering because you see a lot of "mistakes" in product X. I sure hope you got into that industry- you quickly find out that many of those "mistakes" are very intentional so that you don't have worse problems. It's fun to fix problems, and it's very fun to be on the leading edge of an issue. I'm working on issues for a rule we know is coming, but you won't see the cars until 2015. It's very cool.

BTW, I'm quite offended by people who discriminate people who have good grades. The assumptions that are commonly made are just as often very wrong as they are barely right. And that person risks surrounding themselves with average engineers...
Oct. 14, 2010 9:49 a.m. HiTempguy HalfDork

alfadriver wrote:

One note- on the engineering tech programs- the problem with those is that you end up working FOR engineers. Some of us know a lot, and respect your creativity, sure. Some of us are so arrogant in our education that we don't belive anything anyone tells us unless they got a higher degree from a higher school.

I'm an engineering tech up here in Canuckland. The biggest problem I have is people who call themselves engineers when they are actually techs. Having done my first year of an engineering degree, there is VIRTUALLY NO COMPARISON between the two. There is a reason I obtained a 4.0gpa while racing for two years, cause they just don't compare!

And yes, lots of you engineering types are arrogant, but I've met a lot of brilliant ones that I wish I could be half as good as.
Oct. 14, 2010 10:32 a.m. jstein77 Dork

MikeSVO wrote:

I hate 'engineer' types! They might be able to solve ANY problem you ask them to solve, but from what I've seen, 9 times out of 10, they can't properly assess the situation and solve the CORRECT problem. They'll fix something, but you'll still have your problem.

Engineers on their own are virtually useless. They're cogs on a gear - they need other non-enginner type to work with to be effective.

This has already been said, but as a mechanical engineer I take those comments as a personal insult. None of them are true about me or any of the other ME's I know.
Oct. 14, 2010 10:45 a.m. Appleseed SuperDork

This makes me feel great. I need to pass a years worth of chemistry. The quizzes consistency kick my ass and I'm not much better on tests. Yet I'm usually the guy explaining this stuff successfully to others. Happened with sub-shell orbitals the other day.

You could be brilliant, but horrible a taking test, and are often viewed as a failure. I've met quite a few people that can fact dump on a test, pass it, and not be able to answer any questions after the exam on what they JUST took a test on.

Grades and knowlege are two different things.
Oct. 14, 2010 11:02 a.m. John Brown SuperDork

ignorant wrote:

volvoclearinghouse wrote:

I don't think many engineering schools require shop class anymore.

I never scored higher than a 'C' in any of my math classes.

I'm there with you about the scores in math. I never did well in engineering until I got to actual engineering classes. RIT still requires the shop class. I taught it for some time.

The guy I originally referenced actually cannot remember numbers. He can't remember addresses, phone numbers, dates, etc. His condition is so rare that he was studied and published in a National Institute of Health journal article. I remember when he discovered this journal article. He had been written up without his knowing and only found it by googling his various issues/diseases. Imagine his shock, horror, disgust, and morbid curiosity.

His brain:

Link to NIH Study...

I don't know how rare it is,, I have a particularly hard time with numbers and it did stop me from pursuing an drafting/engineering degree. If I am NOT trying I can see the answer but if I am actually trying to solve an answer or problem it actually hurts. I will also drop memory chunks on occasion and my doctor tried telling me it was normal. No studies have been done.
Oct. 14, 2010 11:10 a.m. Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork

John Brown wrote: I will also drop memory chunks on occasion and my doctor tried telling me it was normal.

You wake up at Seatac, SFO, LAX. You wake up at O'Hare, Dallas-Fort Worth, BWI. Pacific, mountain, central. Lose an hour, gain an hour. This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. You wake up at Air Harbor International. If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person?
Oct. 14, 2010 1:32 p.m. Nitroracer Dork

Appleseed wrote:

This makes me feel great. I need to pass a years worth of chemistry. The quizzes consistency kick my ass and I'm not much better on tests. Yet I'm usually the guy explaining this stuff successfully to others. Happened with sub-shell orbitals the other day.

You could be brilliant, but horrible a taking test, and are often viewed as a failure. I've met quite a few people that can fact dump on a test, pass it, and not be able to answer any questions after the exam on what they JUST took a test on.

Grades and knowlege are two different things.

Im getting towards the end of an Energy Engineering (ME + Alternative fuels/Efficiency etc) degree and I feel a lot like this guy. Some material I can work on and explain to others quite well, but when it comes time to take the test I don't get the result I was hoping for. Fluid Mechanics is giving me a bunch of trouble at the moment.
Oct. 14, 2010 6:07 p.m. FlightService New Reader

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:

That is exactly how I felt when I went back to school to get my BSME.

His name was Ford.
Oct. 14, 2010 7:23 p.m. ignorant SuperDork

John Brown wrote:

I don't know how rare it is,, I have a particularly hard time with numbers and it did stop me from pursuing an drafting/engineering degree. If I am NOT trying I can see the answer but if I am actually trying to solve an answer or problem it actually hurts. I will also drop memory chunks on occasion and my doctor tried telling me it was normal. No studies have been done.

do you know your right hand from your left? This guy can't even give someone the middle finger reliably... He just can't figure it out... Can't figure out facial recognition that well...

If you read his reddit post you'll know that he is the first person the NIH has ever studied with these crazy problems that hadn't had a stroke...
Oct. 14, 2010 7:34 p.m. ignorant SuperDork

BSMET here.. Never had a problem going toe to toe with the MSME's I used to work with in very design intensive crap.

Now a BSMET vs a BSME means nothing in manufacturing or 95% of engineering jobs, sure somepeople don't want to hire you straight off from school..

I look at it this way, I just got a really good MBA and now those people who wouldn't hire me before due to my degree now work for me cause of my hard work...

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