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Aug. 4, 2011 7:18 p.m. petegossett SuperDork

I was elected to the board of our small(pop-1400) town and appointed as our water commissioner this year. Being so small, we do not have a town engineer. Rather, our maintenance supervisor get specs and requirements from his vendors.

We have a current project to run new water lines to an existing apartment complex. According to the vendors(2nd-hand, through our maintenance sup) 3"-line is required based on volume. However, he is stating 3" lines and fittings are more expensive than "4, due to them being non-standard.

Now, I won't say I distrust our maintenance guy, but he has a history of padding his budget, then ensuring he spends every last penny(often on frivolous items). So my question to the pros: Do his claims hold water?(pun intended!)
Aug. 4, 2011 7:58 p.m. guibo None

Belive him. I am the engineering manager at a much larger system. In the underground muicipal water world, 3" is a odd size with limied availiblity of some items. There are 3" HDPE and PVC products availible, but you would have to increase the size to 4" for a tapping sleeve and some other fittings will have to be fabricated rather than be purchased off the shelf.

I could go on, but keeping it brief for any other readers of this post.

Jefferson
Aug. 4, 2011 7:59 p.m. Duke SuperDork

I'm not a civil engineer, but I know a few. I'll see if I can turn up any info for you. It does sound plausible to me from my limited knowledge.
Aug. 4, 2011 8:06 p.m. pigeon Dork

Shouldn't be that hard to have him get a quote for the necessary materials in 3" and 4", right? BTW, congrats on your election.
Aug. 4, 2011 8:25 p.m. Stealthtercel HalfDork

I presume (without a shred of actual knowledge or anything) that if 4" is the industry standard, then most if not all of the existing town is 4". If so, presumably there's spares on hand for that dimension, which should be an additional cost reduction over time.

Just curious: Would you get pressure weirdnesses in the system if you had multiple pipe diameters?
Aug. 4, 2011 8:26 p.m. stuart in mn SuperDork

I'm an engineer who designs water treatment plants, although I'm an electrical so I do all the motor controls and such and don't have a lot of knowledge on the plumbing stuff. That said, I imagine Guibo is correct - 3" is kind of an odd size for pipe.

It is interesting that your city doesn't use an engineer; in Minnesota by law that sort of thing generally requires stamped plans. Smaller towns that don't have a city engineer on staff generally set up a contract with a consulting firm like mine to handle those kinds of projects.
Aug. 4, 2011 8:50 p.m. petegossett SuperDork

Thanks for the input!

The problem is we haven't broke ground yet, but his estimates have gone from "a couple thousand", to $5000, then $8000, and now $12k. When he does produce a written PO, it's just a catalog/item number and a brief description - and honestly, he could say he needs 10 of an item or 2, and none of us would know any better.

Sometimes his actions border on blatant insubordination, but the reality is he does a good job - he's just used to calling all the shots, and with shrinking budgets we really need to scrutinize everything.

We have used an engineer for larger projects on occasion, but this is small and(from what I've been told) we do not need one for this.
Aug. 4, 2011 9:13 p.m. DoctorBlade Dork

Pete, it might be amusing to watch the fireworks if you did make him consult an engineer.
Aug. 4, 2011 10:33 p.m. NGTD Dork

I used to work in natural gas distribution. 3" is an oddball and costs extra. 4" gives you almost twice the flow and is cheaper.
Aug. 4, 2011 10:52 p.m. peter Reader

Could you just over-build it and go with 4" pipe to save money, or is that a no-no?
Aug. 5, 2011 5:40 a.m. foxtrapper SuperDork

I rather suspect something has been lost or garbled in the communication. Somewhere back in the conversations, I believe it was described that 3" was the minim size that would work. From that someone else pursued that 3" line as the recommended size.
Aug. 5, 2011 5:59 a.m. fasted58 Dork

Wouldn't a plan or piping line drawings be in order here, if the apartment complex doesn't already have a set... or you should request them. I could see a few extra fittings and material but 10 vs 2 pcs would be a bit much. Request a set of plans... option A, option B etc.
Aug. 5, 2011 11:08 a.m. petegossett SuperDork

No drawings exist. The apartments were built over 30-years ago, the plumber who did the work died several years back, and it seems no one was very concerned with the quality of his work or materials at the time.

I've thought about having a set of drawings done, but that would have to be hired out. As it is, we do not have any money budgeted for this project, so that becomes another expense we really can't afford.

I was told some of these fittings cost hundreds of dollars, so that could obviously throw us way over budget too.
Aug. 5, 2011 11:21 a.m. Schmidlap HalfDork

Is any kind of third-pary inspection needed to be done on the pipes after completion, like by the town building inspector maybe? When that is going on it wouldn't be too hard to go down there and review everything with the inspector under the guise of 'learning about water systems so you can be the best darned water commissioner ever!' Make a quick list of all the major fittings and things you see used.
Aug. 5, 2011 11:53 a.m. Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork

I don't know a thing about muni water systems but I do know when I find myself facing a job that I know nothing about and am not qualified to do...

I get 5 estimates from legitimate contractors who have experience with the task and scale of the job. I then throw out the lowest and highest and take the average of the remaining three.

That is how much it costs. +/- 15% and then budget the fee for an inspection company to monitor the progress and quality of the work. CYA, always.
Aug. 5, 2011 11:59 a.m. petegossett SuperDork

Our maintenance supervisor is also our building inspector. But thats ok, our Mayor is also the only realtor in town. Gotta love small towns... :D

I'm not sure if we could get any bids, since this is such a small project. We've had difficulty even getting bids for a new roof for the village office, or some restoration work on our downtown builds the village now owns.