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NordicSaab
NordicSaab Dork
12/4/18 5:12 p.m.

 

Hey all. Need some help. On 10/20/2018 I was rear ended in my Truck (2017 Toyota Tundra, 1794 Edition, 17K miles, Owned since new). The vehicle that hit me was a F350, with a steel flat bed, and a concrete mixing trailer in tow. It was probably 14000 - 16000 lbs of rolling mass. The driver of the truck that hit me did not provide proof of insurance at the scene. However, it was a labeled commercial vehicle so I was confident they had some insurance.

The damage did not look that bad, but the hitch was tweaked. This was a concern because the hitch is thick steel and ties into the frame at multiple points with grade 10 bolts. The week after the accident I took the truck to the Geico adjuster (My insurance). I went this route because Geico had an office at the Toyota body shop. This body shop is also the same company as the dealership I purchased the truck. They looked at the vehicle and called me a couple days later. The frame was 21mm out on both sides and needed to be replaced. To make it worse, there is a 10 week backorder on Toyota Tundra frames due to a recall on the earlier MY trucks. At this point I am considering options. 

At this point Geico is assessing $15k to repair the truck. The Geico value of the truck is $42K. Initial feedback from Geico is they dont total Tundras because the residual value is so high. Ok, fine, I'll explore options. In parallel, I reach out to the co.pany that hit me and get a copy of their insurance policy. They send me a text of a Progressive commercial policy. 

I owe $38k on the truck. I contact sales manager at the dealership to look at options for trading in/replacing the truck. After several days of study, the sales manager gives me a call.  He says that my truck, because of the damage and subsequent repairs will cause a frame damage repair to be on my trucks record. As a result, my truck once repaired will have a trade in value of $19k. To make it worse, that is the value today. When the new year rolls over to 2020 my truck will be worth even less. So, as a result of the accident I am now $20k upside down. 

At this point I call Geico and express fixing the truck alone will not be an acceptable option because the truck will be worth less than half its initial value after repairs. She says that is a diminished value issue and she does not do anything for diminished value. I point out that their purpose is to make me whole. Repairing a truck that has now lost $20k in value does not make me whole.she said she cant just total a truck. She is not empowered to make that decision. However, she would raise it to her manager.

I also reach out to progressive, the insurance of the person that him me to follow up on their adjuster looking at my vehicle. They take my info and state they will have an adjuster come out. What do I do now? 

 

Other notes:

My Policy: Geico, 50/100 with 10 UM. No gap coverage. $500 Collision deductable.

Truck that hit me: Commercial vehicle, Unknown Progressive policy. Possible additional business liability. 

I already have an attorney involved for the medical aspects of the case because I was rear ended in my miata 6 months ago by an uninsured driver. This accident resulted in x2 herniated discs. Both accidents I was stopped at a light for 15+ seconds before I got hit.

Klayfish
Klayfish PowerDork
12/5/18 6:11 a.m.

You may not like my answer, but it is what it is...

If your frame truly needs replacement (not saying it doesn't, I'd have to see the estimate/photos), it still won't bring the truck to the total loss threshold.  So if either company agrees to total it, that would be a 100% customer service decision, not a dollars and cents one.  Honestly, I wouldn't agree to total it if it were me....at least based on what you've told me so far.

Diminished value is purely subjective.  First and foremost, keep in mind diminished value is about the retail value of the vehicle, NOT the trade in value.  So the dealers' input on trade in value is irrelevant to your DV claim...and it's total bull E36 M3 anyway.  They're just trying to rip you off.  They're trying to tell you that the truck is now worth less than 50% of it's retail value.  Vehicles with actual salvage titles are worth significantly more than that.  So I'd tell the dealer to screw off. 

Your GEICO insurance policy very likely specifically excludes paying diminished value, unless you're in Georgia.  So GEICO probably won't pay it, as they don't owe it.  You can ask Progressive for it, and they'll figure out what they'd want to offer you once repairs are final and complete.  From what you've said so far, I would expect their offer to be in the $2000-$4000 (very top) range.

Most attorneys are utterly c-l-u-e-l-e-s-s when it comes to physical damage things, so they may or may not be able to help you. 

You can push for the truck to be totaled by GEICO, and they'll have to decide if they want to agree to it.  It probably will bring a pretty high salvage sale return, so that could help your argument there.  If they pay you $42k for it and it bring $22k at salvage auction, their net loss is $20k (not quite that simple, but that's the concept).  Your other good argument is the back order on the frame.  If it's 10 weeks out, then the repair itself is probably 3-4 weeks, you're looking at 3+ months of rental.  For GEICO it may not be a big deal because you will only have a limited amount of rental coverage on your policy, so when you're out, you're out.  But if you go with Progressive, they will owe that entire rental length.  At $25/day (not sure what state you're in, they may or may not owe you a comparable rental), you're looking at $1500+ in rental costs on top of repair costs...but that still may not be enough.  Like I said, totaling it would really be a customer service decision.

Let me know if you have any questions.

chuckles
chuckles Dork
12/5/18 6:49 a.m.

Find out what the law says juries are instructed in the determination of damages to a vehicle. In my jurisdiction, it's: "The difference in value immediately before and immediately after the accident, plus loss of use. Repair costs may be considered in making the determination." Loss of use is ordinarily the cost of a comparable rental for the reasonable time for repairs to be made. Sounds as if that could be a substantial claim in this case for reasons beyond your control. Good luck.

NordicSaab
NordicSaab Dork
12/5/18 7:52 a.m.

Thanks for the insight.  

At the moment, I am just pissed off because I had planned to keep this truck for 10 yrs +.  That was the reason for buying new in the first place.  I feel like the truck will never be the same now and I could take a heavy financial hit on residual value. I will see what progressive says and update. 

Duke
Duke MegaDork
12/5/18 8:12 a.m.

I'm not an insurance expert or body shop worker, but I'm going to say that if they replace the frame with a factory-fresh one, it should be just like new.  And if you're riding the depreciation curve for 10+ years anyway, you'll be at the point where the accident history is far less relevant.

Just take lots of pictures of the damage now, and keep them, so that you can show them to a future buyer.  Because I guarantee that what they imagine when they hear "it had a frame replacement because of a rear-end collision" is probably going to be a whole lot worse than what actually happened.

Klayfish
Klayfish PowerDork
12/5/18 8:34 a.m.
NordicSaab said:

Thanks for the insight.  

At the moment, I am just pissed off because I had planned to keep this truck for 10 yrs +.  That was the reason for buying new in the first place.  I feel like the truck will never be the same now and I could take a heavy financial hit on residual value. I will see what progressive says and update. 

Yeah, accidents suck.  For sure.  If the shop is worth their salt, the truck will be 100% good as new. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
12/5/18 8:39 a.m.
Klayfish said:
NordicSaab said:

Thanks for the insight.  

At the moment, I am just pissed off because I had planned to keep this truck for 10 yrs +.  That was the reason for buying new in the first place.  I feel like the truck will never be the same now and I could take a heavy financial hit on residual value. I will see what progressive says and update. 

Yeah, accidents suck.  For sure.  If the shop is worth their salt, the truck will be 100% good as new. 

This. The shop I used when I had the accident in my BRZ was a State Farm preferred shop and put a lifetime warranty on their work. 

If I didn't tell you, you would have never known the car was in an accident. 

NordicSaab
NordicSaab Dork
12/5/18 9:13 a.m.

 

OK, quick update.  

Spoke to Progressive (Other's insurance), they have no plans to inspect the car.  They are accepting liability, but there is only $10K in PD coverage to work with. Their expectation is for Geico to manage process and subrogate.   

Spoke to Geico (My insurance), they are attempting to put together a "Constructive Total Loss" on my vehicle.  The way I comprehended the process is they would evaluate the pre collision value (assuming $42K).  Determine the salvage value (assuming $22K) and add the cost of repairs (Approx $15K). This yields a damage value of $37K which is over the 75% value total threshold.  Said that they will get back to me today.  

mr2s2000elise
mr2s2000elise Reader
12/5/18 9:20 a.m.

Good luck today ! 

Klayfish
Klayfish PowerDork
12/5/18 9:42 a.m.
NordicSaab said:

 

OK, quick update.  

Spoke to Progressive (Other's insurance), they have no plans to inspect the car.  They are accepting liability, but there is only $10K in PD coverage to work with. Their expectation is for Geico to manage process and subrogate.   

Spoke to Geico (My insurance), they are attempting to put together a "Constructive Total Loss" on my vehicle.  The way I comprehended the process is they would evaluate the pre collision value (assuming $42K).  Determine the salvage value (assuming $22K) and add the cost of repairs (Approx $15K). This yields a damage value of $37K which is over the 75% value total threshold.  Said that they will get back to me today.  

Makes sense.  If Progressive didn't have enough coverage, you have little choice but to file with GEICO.  The constructive total loss is exactly what I was describing above.  A constructive total loss has nothing to do with the 75% threshold since repairs aren't near that.  It's about spending less to total it than to repair it.  Their math may look something like this to try to find a way to total it and help you out....

Total loss:

Actual Cash Value = $42,000 + rental $500 = $42,500.  Minus expected salvage return of $22,000 = net payout of $20,500

Repair:

Initial estimate = $15,000 + rental $1000 (your policy limit) + expected supplement (additional hidden damage found) $5000 = net payout of $21,000

Therefore repair cost > total loss cost, plus it's good customer service to get you resolution in a week or two instead of making you wait 4+ months to get your truck back and be without rental coverage.

Hope it works out.  It might take some liberal numbers to make the math work...but it's done all the time.   A car doesn't need to get to 75% or 80% (there isn't one set number BTW) of cash value to total it.  It can be done at 50%, 40% or less if the insurance company wants to.

NordicSaab
NordicSaab Dork
12/5/18 6:53 p.m.

No update today, but the estimate was uploaded to my claim. Estimate is just a hair over $13k. I'm not sure how replacing a frame takes only 13 hours of labor, but, not my issue. 

Will hopefully hear tomorrow. 

OHSCrifle
OHSCrifle GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
12/5/18 7:28 p.m.

This has been educational. Best wishes for a favorable settlement. Were you injured?

NordicSaab
NordicSaab Dork
12/5/18 7:54 p.m.
OHSCrifle said:

This has been educational. Best wishes for a favorable settlement. Were you injured?

I got rear ended in my Miata while stopped 6 months ago. That accident caused x2 herniated discs. 

This accident at least aggravated what happened before. I feel like I am starting over. I had an MRI today, so that will tell what the real damage is. 

Floating Doc
Floating Doc GRM+ Memberand Dork
12/5/18 8:03 p.m.

I am so sorry that you're going through this, especially after getting hit in the Miata the same way.

You weren't hurt this time, I hope. Were you alone?

OHSCrifle
OHSCrifle GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
12/5/18 8:33 p.m.

In reply to NordicSaab :

I’m sorry you’re going through this as well - Seems that you are fortunate you were in a much larger vehicle this time. 

NordicSaab
NordicSaab Dork
12/5/18 8:36 p.m.
Floating Doc said:

I am so sorry that you're going through this, especially after getting hit in the Miata the same way.

You weren't hurt this time, I hope. Were you alone?

I dont know about hurt. I am really sore, but I have a high pain tolerance. The MRI will tell what the extent of the damage is. 

Also, unfortunately, both my kids were in the car with me. Luckaly, my wife and I believe in good car seats and proper installation/use. They were scared, but seem to be OK. 

Floating Doc
Floating Doc GRM+ Memberand Dork
12/5/18 8:44 p.m.

In reply to NordicSaab :

Thank goodness.

Good car seats provide excellent protection, especially when rear ended.

When do you get the MRI results?

NordicSaab
NordicSaab Dork
12/5/18 8:51 p.m.

In reply to Floating Doc :

A couple of days. 

dropstep
dropstep UltraDork
12/5/18 9:10 p.m.

I must say this is one of my biggest fears about having any of my vehicles damaged in an accident. Really sucks that it's such a new vehicle

Floating Doc
Floating Doc GRM+ Memberand Dork
12/5/18 10:22 p.m.

I was hoping to catch up with you on Sunday; don't see you on the entry list.

If the NC isn't ready, but you're still feeling like driving, register for ES and codrive my NB. Number 141.

Klayfish
Klayfish PowerDork
12/6/18 6:10 a.m.
NordicSaab said:

No update today, but the estimate was uploaded to my claim. Estimate is just a hair over $13k. I'm not sure how replacing a frame takes only 13 hours of labor, but, not my issue. 

Will hopefully hear tomorrow. 

It doesn't.  If there's only 13 labor hours, they aren't replacing the frame.  Maybe repairing or some kind of sectioning?

dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/6/18 7:20 a.m.

Sorry to here about all this. The frame replacements we did back in the early 1990’s when I was helping around a local body shop/garage took about 5 man days and this was using used parts with the suspension and most of the hard lines already on the frame. They have to be either sectioning it or doing a back half and either way that is not a full replacement. On another note if it is only 21 mm out on both sides I am suppressed they are not just pulling it and the replacing the horns. I did a couple of those and it was not that bad a fix. Trucks are easy to work on from the cab back. 

Oh and regarding car seats. I think those should be replaced ASAP.  It is my understanding they are a single use item. Check with you insurance on this.  I would even go as far to read all those stickers on the seat to see if this is the case. If it is not covered there I would call/email the manufacturer. If nothing else it is for your piece of mind. 

NordicSaab
NordicSaab Dork
12/6/18 8:55 a.m.

In reply to dean1484 :

Thanks for the thoughts.  Just to cover the car seats, they have already been thrown away.  Geico cut me a check for new ones already; new ones have been purchased.  My wife and I don't sacrifice anything to protect our children.

RE: the frame replacement, I looked at the estimate again.  The part number for the replacement frame is a complete frame.  It is my understanding the Toyota frames are heat treated after construction and per their repair instructions, welding to or attempting to re square is a not an option for more than 10mm.  

Toyota PN - 510010C534 - Diagram

The labor component is what confuses me.  They have a total of 45 labor hours for the entire truck repair and another 10 for paint.  Is assembly/disassembly on these trucks really that quick?       

mr2s2000elise
mr2s2000elise Reader
12/6/18 9:48 a.m.
NordicSaab said:

 

The labor component is what confuses me.  They have a total of 45 labor hours for the entire truck repair and another 10 for paint.  Is assembly/disassembly on these trucks really that quick?       

Yes. I looked up the receipt for my Tacoma frame replacement - and yours seem right in line. 

mr2s2000elise
mr2s2000elise Reader
12/10/18 11:20 a.m.

any updates?

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