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Login to post Forums » Off-topic discussion » Bridge Loan to the Future, Take 2

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Dec. 3, 2008 9:02 a.m. 16vCorey SuperDork

DILYSI Dave wrote:

Nashco wrote:

What is all this nonsense about jets? Am I the only one who sees this as the potential for one of the greatest Cannonball run contests ever? Winner gets $$$25 billion!!! If we're going to be loaning out money to companies we can at least get a good show for our dollar. This could be the greatest reality show/documentary ever!

A ZR1, A Ford GT, and a Viper GTS line up in downtown Detroit. GO!

I love this idea.

Sell that E36 M3 on Pay Per View and they wouldn't need the bailout.
Dec. 3, 2008 9:54 a.m. CrackMonkey Reader

I'd love to see Chrysler downsize and focus on a few niche markets... Jeep for SUVs. Ditch the sport-cutes and roll out a smaller, back-to-basics Wrangler (the JK is enormous and bloated). Keep the GC and Wrangler, for a total of three vehicles. Viper for high end sports cars. Maybe add a Viper-branded sport sedan to compete with the BMW Ms and M-B AMGs? Kill Dodge (or Chrysler, which ever has the least appeal). The other stays around and does mini-vans, cars, and a sport-cute to compete with the CRV/RAV4 Kill off some dealers and the remaining ones sell/service all three brands.

GM - not sure what to do with them. Way too big, bloated, etc. Branding is a mess - Pontiac is supposed to be the sporty brand, but all the "SS" variants and the Corvette belong to Chevy.

Ford - the only one of the Big 2.5 that might be able to continue on without major re-branding and line-up changes. Bring over the euro Focus and the new Fiesta.
Dec. 3, 2008 11:03 a.m. John Brown SuperDork

billy3esq wrote:

In reply to GregTivo:

I think you mean Chapter 11. Chapter 13 is for individuals. Otherwise, you're right on. They'd still have to figure out how to design cars people want to buy, but that shouldn't be that difficult. They are a car company, after all.

The issue at hand has less to do with what will happen to the pensions and the unions, the Big3 could easily stuff those pigs. The REAL issue is the countless suppliers that will fail if the Big3 file Ch11. Currently the ALL of the automotive manufacturers buy as much if not more of their cars from second sourced companies like Lear, DANA and 3M as well as thousands of others. If GM goes down the supplier network goes down, if the supplier network goes down the world economy will fail nearly immediately because these suppliers are interlinked globally.
Dec. 3, 2008 8:59 p.m. GregTivo Reader

John Brown wrote:

billy3esq wrote:

In reply to GregTivo:

I think you mean Chapter 11. Chapter 13 is for individuals. Otherwise, you're right on. They'd still have to figure out how to design cars people want to buy, but that shouldn't be that difficult. They are a car company, after all.

The issue at hand has less to do with what will happen to the pensions and the unions, the Big3 could easily stuff those pigs. The REAL issue is the countless suppliers that will fail if the Big3 file Ch11. Currently the ALL of the automotive manufacturers buy as much if not more of their cars from second sourced companies like Lear, DANA and 3M as well as thousands of others. If GM goes down the supplier network goes down, if the supplier network goes down the world economy will fail nearly immediately because these suppliers are interlinked globally.

you don't stop operating in Chapter 11, you just prove to your creditors that either you can or can't become viable again through reorganization. Some suppliers will fail while GM reduces its purchases, but it won't be nearly the catastrophe everyone predicts, especially if the suppliers are smart and have diversified to supply other companies too. I don't think there is any help for anyone that put all their eggs in one GM basket.
Dec. 4, 2008 6:38 a.m. Clay Reader

I agree. I worked for a subcontractor that did 90% of their work for GM/Ford and boy am I glad I quit when I did. I saw this coming when they were making nothing but SUV's. They will probably survive, they'll just have to shift their focus to other industries (or other companies).
Dec. 4, 2008 6:52 a.m. Jensenman SuperDork

About the new Wrangler: yeah it's big and bloated compared to the earlier version and power locks/windows just look weird in them. I still feel a little odd when I get a key with a remote, I don't immediately recognize it as a JK key.

BUT!

The 4 door Wrangler sells like crazy (at least down here). It far outsells the 2 door version. They sell to soccer moms who don't want to drive a minivan or a HUMMER but still want all the convenience features. Jeep expanded their market for the Wrangler dramatically when they pimped out the JK 4 door, so I can't really fault them for that.

They still kept the 2 door for the diehards and that one can be ordered pretty well stripped (cloth top, 1/2 door with zip out windows, manual tranny, windup windows, etc).

For the rest of Chrysler's lineup, the Commander was and is still a joke. It overlaps the Aspen and Durango but is uglier. IMHO, the Grand Cherokee should be the top of the line Jeep. I would E36 M3can the Compass so quick it ain't funny. The Patriot overlaps it bigtime pricewise, has more interior room and at least is attractive in a boxy sort of way. The Liberty has come to the end of the line, time to let it go.
Dec. 4, 2008 8:16 a.m. DILYSI Dave SuperDork

Yep - The 4 Door Wrangle was a great move. I think it was 83% of all JK's are 4 Door. And it's not just soccer moms. They are stout off road. I've got a buddy with a 4 door Rubicon on 37's. It's badass.
Dec. 4, 2008 8:25 a.m. ignorant SuperDork

tons of 4 door 2wd wranglers down here, what a great product for the market.

The vehicle just needs better engine trans for more MPG for me to jump at a new one.
Dec. 4, 2008 8:41 a.m. Xceler8x HalfDork

That 4-dr Wrangler is what the Hummer should've been when you think about it. The 2WD versions are the perfect poseur mobiles. Throw some semi-wet dirt clods at it and you've got some instant off-road cred! 8)
Dec. 4, 2008 8:46 a.m. Jensenman SuperDork

Funny you should mention the JK is what the HUMMER should have been.

GM was all set to release the H4 in 2010. It's roughly JK sized and IIRC does not share a platform with any other GM truck. I think it uses the I-5 Colorado engine, though.
Dec. 4, 2008 8:52 a.m. DILYSI Dave SuperDork

Xceler8x wrote:

That 4-dr Wrangler is what the Hummer should've been when you think about it. The 2WD versions are the perfect poseur mobiles. Throw some semi-wet dirt clods at it and you've got some instant off-road cred! 8)

I don't "get" 2WD Wranglers, but people buy them. In my mind, any Jeep has so many comprimises to the Gods of Offroad, that if you give up the off roading, all you're left with is compromises. But whatever - people do buy them.

The H4 sorta looked like a JK, but it's nowhere near the off roader. GM insists on putting independent suspension on their trucks, and an independent just doesn't perform as well as a live axle. Rides better on the street, but doesn't compare off road. See also, above comment about compromises.
Dec. 4, 2008 8:56 a.m. Wally SuperDork

From another site: Chrysler CEO might drive to DC, ideally in a 1970 Dodge Challenger R/T evading the Highway Patrol in every state with the help of a blind black dj
Dec. 4, 2008 9:01 a.m. ignorant SuperDork

DILYSI Dave wrote:

Xceler8x wrote:

That 4-dr Wrangler is what the Hummer should've been when you think about it. The 2WD versions are the perfect poseur mobiles. Throw some semi-wet dirt clods at it and you've got some instant off-road cred! 8)

I don't "get" 2WD Wranglers, but people buy them. In my mind, any Jeep has so many comprimises to the Gods of Offroad, that if you give up the off roading, all you're left with is compromises. But whatever - people do buy them.

there is historical precedent as well.

DJ series both postal and non postal.

http://offroaders.com/tech/jeep/Jeep-DJ.htm

nothing could ever be as "poseur" as the surrey gala... love that pepto bismol color.

Don't get me wrong though.. I love it..
Dec. 4, 2008 9:45 a.m. John Brown SuperDork

I thought that surrey was a CJ Tuxedo Park not a DJ. I now realize that I am wrong!

I had a later (68 ish) Tuxedo Park on 325/60r15 Mud Terrains that was a hoot to drive.
Dec. 4, 2008 7:00 p.m. ignorant SuperDork

tuxedo park was the swanky 4wd version and quite desirable tor collectors today. Surrey's were DJ;s
Dec. 5, 2008 8:02 a.m. pete240z HalfDork

so they all cruised up in hybrids?
Dec. 5, 2008 4:51 p.m. Opus HalfDork

CrackMonkey wrote:

Ford - the only one of the Big 2.5 that might be able to continue on without major re-branding and line-up changes. Bring over the euro Focus and the new Fiesta.

At the LA Auto show, the fiesta is on its way (sort of). Had one on display with no badges anywhere (badges, we dont need no stinkin badges)

To me, it looked like a slightly smaller focus. No where near what is called the fiesta in Europe now.
Dec. 7, 2008 3:17 p.m. noisycricket Reader

Wally wrote:

From another site: Chrysler CEO might drive to DC, ideally in a 1970 Dodge Challenger R/T evading the Highway Patrol in every state with the help of a blind black dj

FARK is not just "another site"!

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