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Osterkraut wrote:Nothing like trust in one's fellow teachers.
Factoid: teachers in Florida can't strike.
It's not that. Teachers, atleast the ones i know, take their jobs very seriously. They don't want guns in the school period, teachers, parents, students, cops....
Alot are already forced to deal with armed cops in schools and they hate that as well.
I'm unsure the problem that a concealed weapon would have with the learning enviroment. If fact, if teachers were afforded the normal right to concealed carry, you'd never know.
Then again, the only time a pistol prevented me from learning is when the LEO at my highschool got a new SIG.
Different enviroment, perhaps, but all but one of my favorite teachers in high school were pro-CCW.
Redhornet wrote:"We have a lock-down situation,..." A lock-down situation? Really. It's only 110 students, how many of them are likely to get into some trouble no one knows about? Also, aren't these kids in different classes/subjects, it's not like all or even half of them are in one class together at the same time.
"...we have cameras, but the question we had to answer is, 'What if somebody gets in? What are we going to do?" Who?!?! Who the berkeley is going to "get in" and what the berkeley do you think they would do, in some podunk, nowhere texas town?!?! If there's only 110 students, there's what, maybe 1000 people total in that town? Who the berkeley is going to break into a school in the middle of the day and what could there possibly be in that school anyone would want?!?!
"It's just common sense." Oh, that's what it is, right, gotcha, common sense. You're right, it's absolutely neccessary we let teachers arm themselves and take over security responsibilities too, just in case. Until, of course, said armed teacher misinterperates some innocuous action from a child or other person, pulls out the weapon, shoots and kills/wounds said child/person, then anyone within a 10 mile radius is getting sued and the whole thing winds up back in the Supreme Court.
Now I'm all for firearm ownership by the citizens of this country. But letting our teachers carry weapons is a complete affront to the teaching profession. Teachers and the education system as a whole, need to focus on doing their primary responsibility, teaching. And I don't want to hear any "...if classrooms aren't secure then teachers can't to their job..." bs. If a school is so dangerous that people are worried about shootings, then arming the teachers isn't going to solve the problem, period.
So what about the shooting in the last couple of years in that podunk school in Pennsylvania?
DILYSI Dave wrote:Redhornet wrote:"We have a lock-down situation,..." A lock-down situation? Really. It's only 110 students, how many of them are likely to get into some trouble no one knows about? Also, aren't these kids in different classes/subjects, it's not like all or even half of them are in one class together at the same time.
"...we have cameras, but the question we had to answer is, 'What if somebody gets in? What are we going to do?" Who?!?! Who the berkeley is going to "get in" and what the berkeley do you think they would do, in some podunk, nowhere texas town?!?! If there's only 110 students, there's what, maybe 1000 people total in that town? Who the berkeley is going to break into a school in the middle of the day and what could there possibly be in that school anyone would want?!?!
"It's just common sense." Oh, that's what it is, right, gotcha, common sense. You're right, it's absolutely neccessary we let teachers arm themselves and take over security responsibilities too, just in case. Until, of course, said armed teacher misinterperates some innocuous action from a child or other person, pulls out the weapon, shoots and kills/wounds said child/person, then anyone within a 10 mile radius is getting sued and the whole thing winds up back in the Supreme Court.
Now I'm all for firearm ownership by the citizens of this country. But letting our teachers carry weapons is a complete affront to the teaching profession. Teachers and the education system as a whole, need to focus on doing their primary responsibility, teaching. And I don't want to hear any "...if classrooms aren't secure then teachers can't to their job..." bs. If a school is so dangerous that people are worried about shootings, then arming the teachers isn't going to solve the problem, period.
So what about the shooting in the last couple of years in that podunk school in Pennsylvania?
An Amish school, if I remember correctly.
Reduced population simply spreads out the crazy.
When I was in school the bus drivers were often off-duty police officers that carried side-arms in full view. My PU had a gun rack with a shotgun in it in the parking lot. Lots of people hunted all AM then went to school with a firearm in the car.
I guess I don't see the new angle here that makes this newsworthy. I have a CCP in PA and if I want to walk into a school with pistol there isn't anything stopping me. Same for any teacher that has a permit. School "policy" does not trump state law. It might be a reason they fire you - but you are not obligated to tell them you are carrying... hence the "concealed" part.
walterj wrote:When I was in school the bus drivers were often off-duty police officers that carried side-arms in full view. My PU had a gun rack with a shotgun in it in the parking lot. Lots of people hunted all AM then went to school with a firearm in the car.
I guess I don't see the new angle here that makes this newsworthy. I have a CCP in PA and if I want to walk into a school with pistol there isn't anything stopping me. Same for any teacher that has a permit. School "policy" does not trump state law. It might be a reason they fire you - but you are not obligated to tell them you are carrying... hence the "concealed" part.
There is a defense for it, but you better prove to the judge that it was there for a legal purpose..
Title 18 § 912 Possession of weapon on school property. (a) Definition.Notwithstanding the definition of "weapon" in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime), "weapon" for purposes of this section shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nunchuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury. (b) Offense defined.A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publiclyfunded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school. (c) Defense.It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.
Its a gray area, and you can get a misdemeanor if you get a cranky judge
read pg 3 here http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/PA%20firearms2006_Dec.pdf
you could be up the creek fast.
"any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury."
Seems to me that could be all sorts of things. Better get the baseball bats out of the gym.
Tim Baxter wrote:"any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury."
Seems to me that could be all sorts of things. Better get the baseball bats out of the gym.
Wanna see a magic trick?
If a cop shoots someone, they will probably still be allowed to remain on duty while there is an internal affairs investigation. If internal affairs discovers that they shot a person who was pulling their cell phone out of their back pocket they'll probably say, "well, I can see how you might have mistaken that for a gun," and give them a stern lecture.
If a teacher draws on a student who pulls out a blade and threatens another student, they will probably be put on suspension while a giant investigation is started and the community yells and screams at the horrible teacher. If that teacher fires because it's the only way to save someone's life, they'll probably never get a teaching job in that county again.
ignorant wrote:There is a defense for it, but you better prove to the judge that it was there for a legal purpose..
... or is possessed for other lawful purpose.Its a gray area, and you can get a misdemeanor if you get a cranky judge
It isn't gray at all. If you have a concealed carry permit that is legal and current you can't be charged for having the weapon concealed on your person and so you will not be in front of a judge in the 1st place. I have plenty of occasion to be in a school when attending my kids extra-curricular activities and while I don't make a habit of carrying most of the time (school or not) I have no qualms about doing it whatsoever. That is why I have the permit in the 1st place - so that I can carry a weapon legally in the state of PA.
PA state police says said:In addition to any federal restrictions regarding weapons on school property, Pennsylvania has its own law concerning this problem. Under 18 PA C.S. § 912, a person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree (M-1) if he possess a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly funded educations institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school. A person convicted of an M-1 may be sentenced to a maximum of 5 years in prison. The term “weapon” in this section includes but is not limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nunchuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.read pg 3
Never utter the words, "I can't be charged" I got a few(3) cousins who are cops and a stance like that with a firearm on school grounds will get everything thrown at you.
If you do not have a CCP then you are in violation even in the mall... You are not committing an M-1 violation if you posess a legal permit.
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2008/05/concealed-carry-in-pennsylvani.html <--- this guy is a pro gun lawyer and says.. carrying in a school is a grey area.
want to be the precedent?
btw. I win at the internets.
In all honesty... I rarely carry at all and if I felt the need to carry because of fear for my safety or that of my family - I either wouldn't go there or barring choice I'd carry it anyway and take my chances with legal ramifications.
The license is "supposed" to be the right way to do this for responsible non-criminal types but like most things today... you often need an attorney regardless so I guess "right" is determined by whatever my needs happen to be.
ignorant wrote:btw. I win at the internets.
You are merely a character in my dream, here for my entertainment.
It would be quite unforturnale for you to meet someone like my cousin joe in a school while carrying. He is ardently pro gun but does ultimate fighting for fun, so he is trained to push until the opposite party taps out.
walterj wrote:If you do not have a CCP then you are in violation even in the mall... You are not committing an M-1 violation if you posess a legal permit.
If caught!
Remember, Open carry IS legal ....in Ohio anyway.
So many people think guns are evil and illegal.
There are some local ordinances that try to ban open carry. But none that can be enforced.
RE: Ignorant
I'm not sure where you were going with that... it would be unfortunate for me to meet many people in all manner of situations. BTW, when committing an act of e-thuggery it is more appropriate to state that you yourself are a combat marine, ultimate fighter, etc... also, when trying to win an e-battle is helpful if you liken me to Hitler and use a lot of numbers with several decimal points... for example:
"That sounds like something Hitler would say. I 93.8854% sure that he used that same argument and if he were alive when I was in the Special Forces I'd have shown him a thing or two about ......"
I was just saying my cousin is a tool and likes to hassle people. So if you were caught in a grey area he'd chrage you with all kinds of stupid stuff. I guess thats what you get when you grow up in Jersey... HA
walterj wrote:RE: IgnorantI'm not sure where you were going with that... it would be unfortunate for me to meet many people in all manner of situations. BTW, when committing an act of e-thuggery it is more appropriate to state that you yourself are a combat marine, ultimate fighter, etc... also, when trying to win an e-battle is helpful if you liken me to Hitler and use a lot of numbers with several decimal points... for example:
"That sounds like something Hitler would say. I 93.8854% sure that he used that same argument and if he were alive when I was in the Special Forces I'd have shown him a thing or two about ......"
Ah, it's about time Hitler appeared in this thread...
(Inserting Hitler into threads is a specialty of mine)
In Texas, where this story originated, schools are one of the places that are off limits by default, even to permit holders. Ironically, you can carry in the state capitol, but not at a school.
On a related note, when I was in college, there were several people who got busted for having guns in the car when they intended to go hunting after school. Typically this happened on the Friday that deer or dove season opened, and it was usually somebody who had the gun in full view in a rack in the back window of a pickup.
Tim Baxter wrote: Seems to me that could be all sorts of things. Better get the baseball bats out of the gym.
Sports teams are technically gangs...
ignorant wrote:I'll tell you something as the husband of a teacher, the son in law of a teacher, and the brother in law to about 20 teachers. almost to a man/woman, none of them will go to work if teachers are allowed to carry guns. They'll just stop teaching immediately. I have a feeling that if this happened in a large school district that you'd have strikes everywhere.
As the husband of a teacher, the son of two teachers, and being a teacher myself, I can say that ALL of us would continue to work if teachers are allowed to carry guns.
In fact, all of us do teach WITH TEACHERS HAVING GUNS. In fact, sometimes we're the ones carrying them. Even more terrifiying to some, we have the students handle the guns and even shoot the guns.
confirmed with my wife and her mom last night..
possessing a firearm sends the wrong image for school age children. They do not believe it fosters a positive learning environment.
