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Login to post Forums » Off-topic discussion » Business opportunity for an engineer or small manufacturer

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Jan. 19, 2010 6:38 p.m. SVreX PowerDork

I need a metering system to inject measured amounts of fuel additive into a diesel tank as fuel is added to maintain a proper concentration- an additizer.

I've got a potentially large instant market to buy a bunch of these things. It would be a very good little cottage industry.

Sounds like a modified Megasquirt, a metering valve, a small tank, and a couple of injectors wrapped in a pretty package to me.

I need a design quickly, 10 working units in hand in 30 days. Buy a lot more later. If you can't arrange manufacturing, I can.

If you are interested, (and can produce) pm me. I've got price points, specifics, etc.

Yeah, I'm kind of a "type A" personality! But cuddly, too!
Jan. 20, 2010 6:57 a.m. SVreX PowerDork

Nobody? You're kidding.

With all the enthusiasm and brainpower on this board, and so many of you unemployed, I thought more of you would jump at this.
Jan. 20, 2010 7:06 a.m. 914Driver UltraDork

Maybe I'm over thinking it, aren't you looking for something like the oil tank of a two stroke motorcycle? Fill both, drive. If metering is needed, put a flow meter in-line to keep tabs of the volume passing by.

Dan
Jan. 20, 2010 7:21 a.m. DILYSI Dave UltimaDork

Email sent.
Jan. 20, 2010 7:34 a.m. SVreX PowerDork

Email returned
Jan. 20, 2010 8:21 a.m. petegossett SuperDork

I'm no engineer, but I have an 8800 sq-ft building and plenty of cheap production-experienced labor available, if you get to that point.
Jan. 20, 2010 9:24 a.m. SVreX PowerDork

If an engineer steps up with a design but no manufacturing ability, I'll be at that point.

email sent
Jan. 20, 2010 10:37 a.m. AngryCorvair SuperDork

914Driver wrote:

Maybe I'm over thinking it, aren't you looking for something like the oil tank of a two stroke motorcycle? Fill both, drive. If metering is needed, put a flow meter in-line to keep tabs of the volume passing by.

Dan

right along the line of what i was thinking. is the goal to mix in the tank, ie a stabilizing agent, or is it more important to have the correct ratio of additive to fuel as it is burned, which could be implemented in-line between tank and injectors?

SVreX, you can PM me for no-cost sounding board.
Jan. 20, 2010 10:43 a.m. SVreX PowerDork

Not a stabilizing agent.

Correct burn ratio is the issue.

Could be done in-line, or in the tank.
Jan. 20, 2010 10:48 a.m. SVreX PowerDork

No, wait...that won't work.

Engines recirculate un-used fuel off the fuel rail back into the tanks. We'd be adding more additive to fuel already treated.

Needs to be a ratio to fuel added to tank.
Jan. 20, 2010 10:57 a.m. AngryCorvair SuperDork

SVreX wrote:

No, wait...that won't work.

Engines recirculate un-used fuel off the fuel rail back into the tanks. We'd be adding more additive to fuel already treated.

Needs to be a ratio to fuel added to tank.

good catch on the recirc.

would the users tolerate a piggy-back device that got inserted into the fuel filler prior to the nozzle from the fueling station -- not that i've got any idea how to implement the flow aspect of it. or perhaps i do: a flapper valve in the filler neck, similar to a flow meter in an old-school fuel injection system, where the force of the fuel striking the flapper as it flows down the filler neck causes it to rotate, and there's a "throttle-position" sensor attached to it which is used to regulate the inflow of additive?

or could you calibrate the voltage versus fuel level of the fuel gauge, then use the voltage values before and after refueling to determine the correct amount of additive? this kinda sucks because the same gauge sender is probably used in a whole range of fuel tank sizes.
Jan. 20, 2010 11:42 a.m. Jensenman MegaDork

No engineer, but it seems to me in order to make it as simple as possible for the end user the 'additizer' needs to be in a part of the fuel system which will have no return line. To me, this means between the injection pump and the injectors.

So, a banjo fitting (for lack of a better term) on the injection pump where the lines go, then the aforementioned Megasquirt type setup. It's looking like there is no way around having a separate tank for your additive.
Jan. 20, 2010 11:49 a.m. Schmidlap Reader

Does the additive have the same density as the fuel? If not, they could separate in the fuel tank and all your careful metering could be for nothing.

Bob
Jan. 20, 2010 12:06 p.m. CagleRacing New Reader

Does the additive have an impact on any easily measured properties of the fuel/additive mix? For instance, does the right amount of additive result in a specific range of capacitance? There are plenty of capacitance measuring devices on the market to indicate fluid level where capacitance is constant. You would need to look for changes in capacitance as the additive/fuel ratio was changed -- assuming the relationship exists.

If you have an easy to measure property, then a simple feedback controller could help achieve the desired mixture ratio.

I'd also suggest a patent search. This can prevent you from moving forward with a patent violation and offer opportunities to design around someone else's patent; which is perfectly legal and regularly practiced.
Jan. 20, 2010 12:12 p.m. 4cylndrfury Dork

I can custom cast parts in Aluminum FYI...
Jan. 20, 2010 12:22 p.m. abumason New Reader

Have you looked into modifying a water/methanol injection kit?

Again a separate tank, but might be a start in the right direction.
Jan. 20, 2010 12:50 p.m. AngryCorvair SuperDork

Jensenman wrote:

No engineer, but it seems to me in order to make it as simple as possible for the end user the 'additizer' needs to be in a part of the fuel system which will have no return line. To me, this means between the injection pump and the injectors.

So, a banjo fitting (for lack of a better term) on the injection pump where the lines go, then the aforementioned Megasquirt type setup. It's looking like there is no way around having a separate tank for your additive.

degree not required to be an engineer, J-man. i think you nailed it, because on a diesel there's no throttle, so the metering could be as simple as using a reference to the fuel pressure or injector pulse as the proportional control.

a friend of mine has a patent on a similar device, which uses boost to determine rate of water injection on turbo engines. maybe his system could carry your additizer?
Jan. 20, 2010 12:51 p.m. SVreX PowerDork

All good ideas.

Whose going to build it? I've gotten a couple of emails, but no one has called.

All I've got is a market, and a sense of how it needs to work. I'm not designing it, I'm looking for a design, and a manufacturer. I can find a manufacturer if all I get is a design.
Jan. 20, 2010 1:12 p.m. SVreX PowerDork

piggy back device to the fuel filler- fine.

fuel sender voltage pickup- fine.

proximately sensor installed in tank- fine

Fuel flow meter- fine

Banjo fitting- fine (though there might be a problem with this injecting evenly into cylinders equally after the fuel rail, without recirculating to the tank)

Additive separation no problem. Solubility has been well tested.

Capacitance measuring devices- interesting idea. Not sure if there is a measurable difference.

Custom cast aluminum parts- I think whoever builds this would be wise to use mostly off the shelf components (from a speed of production standpoint), but that's good info to know.

Modified water/ methanol injection system- sure, why not. Wanna build it?

Metering reference to the fuel pressure or injector pulse- fine

Boost rate might work- what about varying boosts on different engines?

You all have great ideas. I need someone to design and build it.
Jan. 20, 2010 10:17 p.m. Tetzuoe Reader

you could even do that insane resistive fuel volume mesurement hackaday detailed, nice and complicated. what volume of additive are we talking here? What accuracy? basically are we trying to design an insulin pump (highly accurate small volume) or a water meth sprayer (high volume low accuracy).
Jan. 20, 2010 11:28 p.m. SVreX PowerDork

1750 ppm. Accuracy could float a little.
Jan. 21, 2010 12:12 a.m. The_Jed Reader

Would there be some way to adapt an oil metering pump from a rotary, or a derivative thereof, to serve your purpose?

I'm not even sure if it's applicable, I don't know much about the inner workings of the pump, it just occurred to me and it seemed like a possibility.
Jan. 21, 2010 12:28 a.m. Reverse_Camber New Reader

In reply to SVreX:

6.6245 ml / Gal. = 1750ppm
Jan. 21, 2010 1:24 a.m. Shaun Reader

SVreX wrote:

1750 ppm. Accuracy could float a little.

"accuracy could float a little". what is "a little"? Any idea on what happens as the ratio changes? Has any testing been done? How long does this assembly need to last? What is your cost objective? What sort of warranty are you going to offer? How corrosive is this additive? do you have spec sheets on the additive?
Jan. 21, 2010 7:47 a.m. Jensenman MegaDork

The 1750 ppm accuracy required says to me high pressure injection downstream of the injection pump. Think of it this way; if the additive is put into the tank it's quite easy to raise the concentration if required. But lowering it is another thing entirely.

Maybe a 'swirl pot' type of setup: the main diesel tank is fed at low pressure into a swirl pot where the additive is, well, added. Then from the swirl pot you pull the fuel for the injection pump. You'd need a non return valve between the main diesel tank and the swirl pot, then have the injector return dump into the swirl pot. Now you can easily control the mix ratio.

The other thing to consider is whether you'd need a system compatible with the new generation of piezoelectric injectors.

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