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Login to post Forums » Off-topic discussion » Civil Engineering (Rant)

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Sept. 24, 2008 9:54 a.m. PHeller Reader

Currently a Junior in Environmental Geography, with possible double major in International Studies, and a minor in Quantitative Analysis or something similar.

Basically, I love history, diplomacy, Middle-East relations, that kind of thing, but I haven't traveled and don't know any foreign language. I love reading books about this stuff, but you need more than books to get a good job in the field.

I love the idea of getting outside every day, but not working so hard that my back is broken at 45 and making enough money to support a family and have fun hobbies like cars and traveling.

I really like regional, urban, and development planning, and already have a small amount of experience in that field, but want to open my career to more options.

Civil Engineering looks awesome, great paying, good work atmosphere...but the math looks tremendous and it took me 3 tries to pass a basic math course in college. Ugh.

So basically this is a rant.
Sept. 24, 2008 10:02 a.m. nickel_dime HalfDork

Do you also like long walks on the beach, reading by the fire and puppies?
Sept. 24, 2008 10:16 a.m. PHeller Reader

Don't you?
Sept. 24, 2008 10:19 a.m. Twin_Cam Dork

Math=evil. It took me three tries to pass Pre-Calc. And if you become a civil engineer...try to fix the roads in Jersey for me, every time I drive there I get lost.
Sept. 24, 2008 10:33 a.m. petegossett Dork

I'm in a similar situation. I've thought quite often about going back to college for an engineering degree - and probably Civil, for the reasons you've stated.

I also suck at much beyond basic algebra. We weren't required to take algebra in HS(and I was a major slacker way back then). I did take a HS-level algebra course at our junior college about 10-years ago, but completely fell behind after a couple weeks & ended up dropping the course. I can also tell you now, from helping my junior-high & high-school aged kids, that I still just don't get it.

Ironically enough, my college(ITT)did require Boolean Algebra & Trig, both which seemed easy to me.

If I had more time(and something besides dialup available at home)I'd be tempted to do an online college, so at least I could have my wife help me out if I get in a bind.
Sept. 24, 2008 10:46 a.m. PHeller Reader

ahh, I'm not alone. That's refreshing.

I sent some emails to some colleges asking what kind of degree requirements are needed to get into Masters of Civil Engineering programs.

I once heard that just because you have a Engineering Degree does not mean your certified by the state, and that some programs reflected this, in that you could get a Masters in Engineering, and that would add to your qualifications as a State Licensed Engineer, but if you didn't have the licensing, it would allow you more career opportunities in planning and development positions, as opposed to applied design.

I could be wrong.
Sept. 24, 2008 11:00 a.m. Monkeywrench New Reader

I was an engineering major, after a few semesters I had enough. I was never strong at math, I could do it, but I hated it to the point that I just basically "gave up" on it. I'm a science major now and am doing much better. This probally means a pay cut and grad school, but it is much more bearable.

You're going to need a ton of math in engineering. All it really is, is physics. You're first two years (5 year school) are basically spent doing math, the last 3 is physics with a little bit of science thrown in. Don't sweat it. If you're on campus, there are tons of study groups and most schools run tutor centers. If you want it bad enough you can do it.

Rantings...

If you are going to be an engineer, it should be REQUIRED that you spend at least 2 years in the field. Anyone who has ever done any field work can relate.

Also the kids in engineering are different (I always did and still hang out with the "artsy" crowd.. so it might just be me ). The school keeps pushing this "you're a great problem solver, way of the future, blah blah blah" bs on you and it goes to these kids' heads. These kids were great at math and were putting in tremendous efforts to succeed, but that's about all they had going for them. I can't believe some of these kids are going to go out and design bridges, buildings, etc... scary.
Sept. 24, 2008 11:00 a.m. Paul_VR6 New Reader

Generally public work (civil, power electrical, etc) you need to be a licensed Professional Engineer. One mMight have to be for certain gov contract stuff as well. Other then that I don't know any engineers that are PEed.

That all being said if you don't like math and/or it just isn't your thing, don't try and get into engineering it'll just drive you mad before you're three semesters in. I think I ended up with seven semesters of math for my BSEE.
Sept. 24, 2008 11:16 a.m. Ian F Reader

PHeller wrote: I love the idea of getting outside every day, but not working so hard that my back is broken at 45 and making enough money to support a family and have fun hobbies like cars and traveling.

I really like regional, urban, and development planning, and already have a small amount of experience in that field, but want to open my career to more options.

Look into Construction Management.
Sept. 24, 2008 11:18 a.m. Raze New Reader

Georgia Tech has a program right up your alley by the looks of it: http://www.planning.gatech.edu/ take a look, maybe you can find something similar where you live
Sept. 24, 2008 11:26 a.m. ClemSparks UltraDork

I'd like to work for my city or county and I think if I had a civil degree, rather than mechanical...it would be a lot easier for me to get a job with them.

Civil wasn't very exciting to me when it was time to choose degree paths, though...

So...does being a civil engineer mean you have to be nice all the time? As opposed to those unruly engineers...
Sept. 24, 2008 11:59 a.m. katonk New Reader

At the university I graduated from, those who transferred out of the mainstream engineering disciplines usually found happiness in the IT, Industrial Manufacturing Engineering, and Construction Management majors.
Sept. 24, 2008 12:08 p.m. fastEddie Dork

I work for a large General Contractor/Construction Manager in southwest Ohio. We believe in and participate heavily in the co-op programs offered by local colleges (with University of Cincinnati being the largest). We get both CE and CM students and even occasionally some other disciplines.

Coming from a failed ME background at GMI/KU I also believe in co-oping and sliding into CM if the engineering thing doesn't work out for you! Math was my doing in also....
Sept. 24, 2008 1:06 p.m. nderwater New Reader

It's been over eight years now since I my friends and I finished up at Georgia Tech. Most of us have moved from technical/enginnering positions and into management - which is often the only way to keep your salary moving with any real upward trajectory. If I was in your shoes, I'd skip the double major and minor (unless the subjects REALLY interested me), get out of school and into the workforce or grad school (mba).
Sept. 24, 2008 1:54 p.m. Apexcarver SuperDork

I am a Mechanical Engineering student.

I will put it this way, if you balk at my course load for this semester then you shouldn't even think about engineering.

Calculus 2, Physics 2 (electricity and magnetism), Dynamics, Mechanics of Materials.

(I actually should have added one more class this semester, but didn't need to, so didn't)

Here I was kicking myself for getting a 71% on the first of 5 exams in Calc2.

Another thing to note is that in BOTH of the engineering programs I have been exposed to (Ohio State, and MD college park) you are REQUIRED to maintain at least a 3.0 GPA. (that can be a beyotch with the type of classes you must take)

Heres the essence of classes in math and physics you have to take outside of the engineering specific ones for the program im in. (this is for Mech E.) Calculus 1,2,3 and Differential Equations for math. Chemistry 101, 102 Physics 1,2,3 (calculus based physics 1 is mechanics, 2 electricity and mag, 3 sound and light)

It takes EFFORT to do this major. ALOT of effort.
Your friends the business, art, and other majors can go out and party and get drunk. YOU learn the mantra, " I can't, I have to STUDY!" Forget joining a frat, forget getting hammered on a regular basis. If you can swing time to have a GF, she'd better be low maintenance.

My autocross friends tend to notice that I am alot more animated in the summer, its because in the school year I am being ground down by the study grind. There is no pain like being at an autocross and KNOWING "I should really be doing Physics homework" to take some of the fun out.

That said, If it weren't for my working hard to make it so I can have my monthly autocross weekend where i can go without schoolwork for 2 days... ID GO NUTS!

That is in essence what I'm facing, I hope it ends up being worth it!
Sept. 24, 2008 2:15 p.m. Capt Slow New Reader

Don't sweat the math too much. If you can identify a good set of teachers and find a good set of peers to study with (frequently) it goes down pretty easy.

The CE's do get nailed on exams though. If you want to work in industry you are going to need to get you PE (Professional Engineer cert) I don't know if varies by state but in California at least that means taking a set of EIT exams (Brutal by reputation) and then upon graduation you need to understudy a PE for 2 years and the end of which you will be subject to another set of exams.

Understand that I am and Aerospace engineer and, as such, having a PE is not terribly important so I could be full of E36 M3.

In college we had a friendly rivalry with the Civil Engineering department. we would often tease them and insinuate that they were really in the "easy" branch of engineering.
Sept. 24, 2008 2:52 p.m. YaNi New Reader

As a junior ME major I finally figured out that the classes aren't all that difficult, just extremely time consuming, with the right professor. Last year I retook Statics and Calc II with different professors and was shocked with how much more I learned. I learned nothing in Calc II the first time with Prof. Wanjiku who was fresh off the boat from Africa... I also brought those grades up from D's to A's.

I have discovered to look for the part-time professors, anyone with years of real world experience, or at least that knows English as a first language. They are able to provide better explanations and examples than the lackeys that got a doctorate and decided to teach.
Sept. 24, 2008 6:29 p.m. HiTempguy New Reader

Last year I retook Statics and Calc II with different professors and was shocked with how much more I learned.

I had a similiar experience when I took University Calculus in high school. I ended up having two spares, in my final semester of grade 12, so I retook Calculus (originally had a 75%, came out with above 85% and barely had to work at it).

I did my first year of an engineering degree. I now look back (I am in Instrumentation Engineering, a technologist diploma program that can also be applied towards a degree) and realize that I may have just simply needed MORE time to become an engineer. But with the program already taking 4 years, stretching it out past 5 would drive me crazy (I thought I was going a little nuts during the 1st year). If you don't mind the length, having the extra time with lighter course loads may be the advantage you need.

Having said all of that, if you don't like math (even if you don't LOVE math/physics) probably best to stay away from a full-blown engineering degree.
Sept. 24, 2008 7:46 p.m. stuart in mn Dork
One of the weird things about engineering (at least in my experience, I'm an EE) is that once you get out of school, chances are you'll never seen a differential equation or integral again. You need the background to understand various aspects of what you'll be doing in your job, but you end up using computer programs or simulations or guidebooks or cheat sheets to keep track of mathematical things. Plus, a lot of what you do in college is really meant to train you how to solve problems, and that's the base of all engineering - someone has a problem, and you have to figure out how to solve it.

If civil engineering doesn't do it for you, there are other similar lines of work - construction management as was mentioned above, environmental engineering, geotechnical engineer, air quality engineer, soils scientist, or maybe a technology degree (a technology degree is less academic and you usually end up in a more hands on job.) As far as Professional Engineer registration goes, it's important if you're in construction or municipal fields, not so much if you're working in industry. Most civil engineers are registered because they're building roads and bridges and that sort of thing, while mechanical or electrical engineers working for a company that manufactures a product (say, GM or 3M or something like that) rarely are registered.

The rules vary from one state to the next, but in general you take the engineer in training (EIT) exam when you're a senior in school. Then, you graduate and get a job, and after five years you can take the PE exam. Or, you can do like I did and wait until later in your career to get a PE; if you have 20 years experience you can take the PE exam without having taken the EIT back in school. However, I had to go back and re-learn all that stuff I'd forgotten the day after graduation so it was HARD...I wouldn't recommend this route.

When you get a PE license it's only good for the state you're registered in, you have to get licensed in each state where you practice. Fortunately, most states have reciprocity, so for the most part it just involves filling out a bunch of forms and getting recommendations from co-workers, plus coughing up more money (I'm only registered in two states so the fees aren't so bad; my boss on the other hand is registered in 36 states and I don't want to know how much that costs him every year.) Also, most states require that you take continuing education classes to keep your license current, usually 12 hours per year or so.

Things are actually looking pretty good for engineers these days (as long as you're not an automotive engineer in Detroit.) My company has a ton of openings right now, and we're having a hard time finding engineers to fill them. http://www.barr.com/jobs/careers_openings.asp

Edit: "Also the kids in engineering are different (I always did and still hang out with the "artsy" crowd.. so it might just be me )." You may be surprised at how many engineers are involved in artistic endeavors - for instance, I've played in bands all my life, and I've known a lot of other engineers who were talented at music or painting or carpentry or other things like that. One thing that's stuck with me all these years is something one of my professors told us about the three basic steps of good engineering:
1. Make it work.
2. Make it simple.
3. Make it pretty.
Sept. 24, 2008 8:09 p.m. Monkeywrench New Reader

Stuart,

Maybe I never really stuck in it long enough to really get to know a lot of the kids outside my little assigned project group. Everyone's experience differs. The same could be said for any major. Obviously I'm still sour over it.

You work for Barr? You guys are loaded with all those turbines right now, no wonder your short handed. I was shipped out to the midwest for a couple weeks working for you guys on my co-op (conetec). Chances are you've delt with us at one time or another.
Sept. 24, 2008 8:21 p.m. stuart in mn Dork

Monkeywrench wrote: You work for Barr? You guys are loaded with all those turbines right now, no wonder your short handed. I was shipped out to the midwest for a couple weeks working for you guys on my co-op (conetec). Chances are you've delt with us at one time or another.

Yup. I was with a small electrical engineering consulting firm for many years (Barr was one of our steady clients) and they bought us out a year ago, in part because of the amount of work on the wind turbine jobs.
Sept. 24, 2008 11:08 p.m. Jack SuperDork

Stuart is right. I also waited over 25 years from EIT to PE. What a b-buster the PE was after all those years. It's not a bad test, but the prep was killer.

Jack, PE-WA
Sept. 25, 2008 5:07 a.m. foxtrapper SuperDork

So, how about urban planning? Or architecture?

Just about everyone is good at math, they just don't know it. Math is typically taught poorly, so people come to believe they aren't good at it, when in fact they are.
Sept. 25, 2008 7:47 a.m. PHeller Reader

I have actually thought about going for Landscape Architecture as it is offer by a few colleges in PA in graduate programs.

A quick look at Environmental Engineering shows not much math.

Anyone go for Environmental and know what kind of courses are required?
Sept. 25, 2008 8:17 a.m. Wally SuperDork

Math kicked me out of becomeing an ME many moons ago. Stupid numbers.

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