Do rich people pay taxes?

I say stick with income tax.  A simple polynomial function can spit out what you owe.  All you need to put in is income and dependents.

In reply to ProDarwin :The objection to income tax is,  what’s income?  Does this count? what if——?  

No question about buying things. The rule is simple. If you want something you have to pay for it including a tax.  

dculberson said:

77,000 pages and $1,000/hour lawyers. Tax pages go up, lawyer fees go up. Can't explain that.

Sure you can, the pages are to confuse and hide things. Can’t have,  Bob gets a special break because he paid for my election.  

Heck if you did that every politician would  have a price tag next to their name instead of a party.

Us peons wouldn’t know who to vote for.  Do I vote for the guy who’s gonna cost me my job or the guy who’s gonna cost me my health?  

In reply to frenchyd :

And that pretty much sums up everything you need to know about the US tax code.

So, redefine it.  Treat capital gains as income and most of the gray area goes away.

Also, as you get to the very income earners it becomes easier for them to spend their money outside of the US which will eliminate a lot of revenue.

In reply to ProDarwin :Import duty!

ProDarwin said:

So, redefine it.  Treat capital gains as income and most of the gray area goes away.

 

 

The problem is that smart investors won’t take their money out.  They will simply have it transferred out of the country or use it to back up a credit purchase of other stock. 

There are so many ways not to take or even need the cash.  Yet still get the benefits of spending it.   That’s what those expensive tax attorney’s do. 

I really doubt you could charge a Federal sales tax on component materials and labor used for manufacturing for resale. 

Businesses Don't pay tax, or charge it.  They collect it.

So, a 2 % sales tax on the purchases they made to manufacture their product would equal a 2 % hike in prices to the consumer.  But wait...

That assumes a manufacturer takes a raw material and converts it directly into a saleable product.  They don't. 

There are multiple layers in the manufacturing process.  The materials may pass through many different component manufacturers before they reach their final destination.  If the 2% was added at every step in the process, it could easily mean 10%, or even 20% price increase by the time the product got to the end line user (who would get to pay 2% AGAIN!). It would create price wars with manufacturers rushing to purchase their component materials from overseas countries that don't charge sales tax.

It would also be a nightmare to implement with services companies that are not set up to collect sales tax.  Imagine your plumber, or your cleaning lady, or your lawn boy trying to collect sales tax then figure out how to remit it to the government.  Small businesses would be slaughtered.

SVreX is correct.  It would be a manufacturing killer in that companies would start sourcing completed assemblies overseas and shipping them in instead of buying many smaller pieces and manufacturing items.  Any way you look at it the end result would be higher end user prices, again affecting those with lower incomes.  Income tax is by far the easiest on lower income earners in that with today's system, most low income families pay little, if not any income tax.  They are still consumers however. 

To think manufacturers and businesses are going to eat the tax increases instead of passing them on is not correct.  Most businesses are not sitting on massive piles of cash waiting to give it to the government.  Most of the businesses in this country are small to medium size and can't afford to have chunks of money carved out of their budgets.  

SVreX said:

I really doubt you could charge a Federal sales tax on component materials and labor used for manufacturing for resale. 

Businesses Don't pay tax, or charge it.  They collect it.

So, a 2 % sales tax on the purchases they made to manufacture their product would equal a 2 % hike in prices to the consumer.  But wait...

That assumes a manufacturer takes a raw material and converts it directly into a saleable product.  They don't. 

There are multiple layers in the manufacturing process.  The materials may pass through many different component manufacturers before they reach their final destination.  If the 2% was added at every step in the process, it could easily mean 10%, or even 20% price increase by the time the product got to the end line user (who would get to pay 2% AGAIN!). It would create price wars with manufacturers rushing to purchase their component materials from overseas countries that don't charge sales tax.

It would also be a nightmare to implement with services companies that are not set up to collect sales tax.  Imagine your plumber, or your cleaning lady, or your lawn boy trying to collect sales tax then figure out how to remit it to the government.  Small businesses would be slaughtered.

You are not giving the government enough credit for its ability to create stupid systems.  The Goods and Services tax in Canada is collected at every level, and it is stupid.  The manufacturer sells to the warehouse, and collects the 5%.  The warehouse sells to the jobber, and collects the 5%.  The jobber sells to me, and collects 5%.  Then, the end user pays me the 5%, and I remit the tax, less the tax I payed on the purchase.  And, the jobber remits the tax, less the tax he payed on the purchase.  And the warehouse remits the tax, less the tax he payed on the purchase.  And so on.  When the Canadian government introduced the GST to replace the federal tax that was originally charged to the manufacturer or importer, they hired pretty much every accountant from pretty much every school in the nation to administer it. 

The provincial sales tax is only added at the end user level, and is a straight 6% of the bill. I add up the tax I have collected, and send them a cheque every month.

racerdave600 said:

SVreX is correct.  It would be a manufacturing killer in that companies would start sourcing completed assemblies overseas and shipping them in instead of buying many smaller pieces and manufacturing items. 

 

A federal sales tax can easily be charged at the border, taking away the import advantage.  Not saying its good, just sayin'.  Nothing is manufactured or imported into Canada without tax.  And of course, the end user is the one who pays the bill.

ProDarwin said:

So, redefine it.  Treat capital gains as income and most of the gray area goes away.

 

 

Except huge numbers of average citizens use these as retirement income.  The ones I hear being discussed here are a minute percentage of the population.  Capitol gains are not just for rich people.  I would bet there is not a single person here that if they won the lottery wouldn't want to protect their money as best they could.  This usually means investments of some sort.  Of course there is absolutely nothing preventing people from paying additional tax, you can pay all you want to the government.  I don't believe many take them up on that, including people complaining about how others don't pay their share.  You think Warren Buffet paid more after commenting he doesn't get charged enough?  I'm pretty sure he used every means at his disposal to pay the least as possible.  

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

Sounds like we agree. 

Streetwiseguy said:

racerdave600 said:

SVreX is correct.  It would be a manufacturing killer in that companies would start sourcing completed assemblies overseas and shipping them in instead of buying many smaller pieces and manufacturing items. 

 

A federal sales tax can easily be charged at the border, taking away the import advantage.  Not saying its good, just sayin'.  Nothing is manufactured or imported into Canada without tax.  And of course, the end user is the one who pays the bill.

Not entirely true because of NAFTA.  I deal with it everyday.  Although Canada is by far the most difficult country we import into, short of Brazil.  Even South Africa with all of its corruption is easier than Canada.  There is about a 50-50 chance of getting stuck in customs going in as they look for any means to charge tariffs due to NAFTA.  I have heard stories from customers about the govt. hitting them with huge fees on imported items, sometimes to the tune of 50%.  Brazil can charge north of 100% on some items.

I will say that we are probably the lowest import taxation country that I deal with, as it costs almost nothing to get products coming in from China.  We do buy some components from them, but it grates on me every time.  There are certain items you simply cannot source from the US anymore.  And they are vastly cheaper even on ones you can get here.  It is sad what we have done to manufacturing in this country.  My personal belief is this is what has created huge populations of people sliding from middle to lower class in this country.  Areas like Detroit, some areas of Chicago, Gary, IN, have suffered tremendously, just to name a few.   Around here, we used to have a choice of board houses for PCBs.  They almost all come from China now.  There are a few US companies, but most are just fronts for China imports and do not do much of the production here.  Sad really.  

What we have done to manufacturing in this country is almost criminal.  

In reply to racerdave600 :

I wore at t shirt to highschool back when they were trying to get NAFTA passed. It read 

North

America's

Future 

Traded

Away. 

I think that has come to fruition.

In reply to racerdave600 :

Well said.  At the risk of derailing this thread further, I wonder if the current potential trade war with China actually happened, and if it goes on for a long period of time, whether it could bring this issue to the forefront for many people.  

In a perfect world we’d even try to fix it. 

Ok, but guys-who is right, my wife or me?  LOL 

racerdave600 said:

Streetwiseguy said:

racerdave600 said:

SVreX is correct.  It would be a manufacturing killer in that companies would start sourcing completed assemblies overseas and shipping them in instead of buying many smaller pieces and manufacturing items. 

 

A federal sales tax can easily be charged at the border, taking away the import advantage.  Not saying its good, just sayin'.  Nothing is manufactured or imported into Canada without tax.  And of course, the end user is the one who pays the bill.

Not entirely true because of NAFTA.  I deal with it everyday.  Although Canada is by far the most difficult country we import into, short of Brazil.  Even South Africa with all of its corruption is easier than Canada.  There is about a 50-50 chance of getting stuck in customs going in as they look for any means to charge tariffs due to NAFTA.  I have heard stories from customers about the govt. hitting them with huge fees on imported items, sometimes to the tune of 50%.  Brazil can charge north of 100% on some items.

I will say that we are probably the lowest import taxation country that I deal with, as it costs almost nothing to get products coming in from China.  We do buy some components from them, but it grates on me every time.  There are certain items you simply cannot source from the US anymore.  And they are vastly cheaper even on ones you can get here.  It is sad what we have done to manufacturing in this country.  My personal belief is this is what has created huge populations of people sliding from middle to lower class in this country.  Areas like Detroit, some areas of Chicago, Gary, IN, have suffered tremendously, just to name a few.   Around here, we used to have a choice of board houses for PCBs.  They almost all come from China now.  There are a few US companies, but most are just fronts for China imports and do not do much of the production here.  Sad really.  

What we have done to manufacturing in this country is almost criminal.  

Tariffs have nothing to do with a sales tax.  Sales tax is paid by the importer, the exporter shouldn't need to worry about it at all. The border/tariff situation is another kettle of lunacy completely. And lunacy it is. 

I should just point out, too, that your complaint about Chinese parts coming into the country easily, and the dearth of American manufacturers could be interpreted as a call for higher tariffs...

Nick Comstock said:

In reply to racerdave600 :

I wore at t shirt to highschool back when they were trying to get NAFTA passed. It read 

North

America's

Future 

Traded

Away. 

I think that has come to fruition.

Not if its done correctly.  The autopact has been in place for decades, which recognises cars built in Detroit as being Canadian or American, and cars built in Windsor as American or Canadian.  Doesn't seem to harm anybody too much, and would harm them even less if the rest of the border hoo-hah were simplified.

Now, make Mexicans as rich and lazy as Canadians and Americans, fix their environmental laws up to our standards, and NAFTA Is no big deal at all.

loosecannon said:

Ok, but guys-who is right, my wife or me?  LOL 

Well... like most things in life: it depends. 

I just had some parts shipped from Australia that cost over $1100.  Being a private sale, he offered to insure it at a lower amount to reduce the duties on my end, but to make sure the insurance was adequate I told the shipper to insure it for the full amount, duties be damned.   Import duty was about $25, plus another $10 for DHL's processing fees.

NOHOME in Canada has often commented how he gets raped whenever he buys something from the US.  The MCM guys in Australia have made similar comments. Looking at the $25 I paid to the Govt for an $1100 purchase - about 2% - I'd say our import tariffs could stand being a raised a bit. Or something. I don't know... It's just seems like something is out of whack. 

Ralph Nader (remember him?) advocates an "ethical tax" and how it works is that there is an import tax on everything built outside the USA and the tax % is on a sliding scale based on how close your countries manufacturers' standards are to American manufacturing standards. If you pay your workers nothing, have poor safety standards or use processes banned in the USA, your products are taxed heavily. If you have similar standards (such as Canada) than you are taxed much lower. This encourages the world to raise their standard of living for their workers (if they want to sell to the US) and discourages a country (cough,China) from dumping their crap in America.

Ian F said:

loosecannon said:

Ok, but guys-who is right, my wife or me?  LOL 

Well... like most things in life: it depends. 

I just had some parts shipped from Australia that cost over $1100.  Being a private sale, he offered to insure it at a lower amount to reduce the duties on my end, but to make sure the insurance was adequate I told the shipper to insure it for the full amount, duties be damned.   Import duty was about $25, plus another $10 for DHL's processing fees.

NOHOME in Canada has often commented how he gets raped whenever he buys something from the US.  The MCM guys in Australia have made similar comments. Looking at the $25 I paid to the Govt for an $1100 purchase - about 2% - I'd say our import tariffs could stand being a raised a bit. Or something. I don't know... It's just seems like something is out of whack. 

In my experience, the raping we get in Canada has nothing, well, very little to do with the government.  UPS, on the other hand, doesn't even give a guy a friendly reach-around.  Its why we always want you guys to mail us stuff.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

Not sure how bad it is going from the US to Canada, but several years ago I had a package the size of a shoebox shipped from Canada to the US (car parts obviously). Pretty sure shipping was around $20 and UPS was kind enough to add nearly $50 in duty fees. It delayed things almost a week too.

loosecannon said:

Ralph Nader (remember him?) advocates an "ethical tax" and how it works is that there is an import tax on everything built outside the USA and the tax % is on a sliding scale based on how close your countries manufacturers' standards are to American manufacturing standards. If you pay your workers nothing, have poor safety standards or use processes banned in the USA, your products are taxed heavily. If you have similar standards (such as Canada) than you are taxed much lower. This encourages the world to raise their standard of living for their workers (if they want to sell to the US) and discourages a country (cough,China) from dumping their crap in America.

The big problem with that approach is it will have less effect on the actual producing countries and a huge impact on a lot of people who buy low-cost imported products in the US.  

STM317 said:

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

Not sure how bad it is going from the US to Canada, but several years ago I had a package the size of a shoebox shipped from Canada to the US (car parts obviously). Pretty sure shipping was around $20 and UPS was kind enough to add nearly $50 in duty fees. It delayed things almost a week too.

I do remember UPS being a PITA with duties when I had some stuff shipped from Canley last year.  Letters, confusion. Very old-school.  I would have to dig through my records to find out the duty cost vs UPS' fees.

Conversely, DHL has their system down - they get your cell number and handle the whole process through text messages.  Pretty slick and painless.