I'm got a 40 year old oil boiler, that needs to be replaced. Gas does not run down my street. I'm thinking about going from oil to electric heat. I'm in north eastern PA, its 17 degrees outside today, is a heat pump a good option for me? Would I spend less money per month on heating my house?
Andrew
I'm not an HVAC guy, but I'll guarantee replaceing ANY 40 year old heating system with ANY modern heating system will save energy costs.
You might burn up those savings in services and blown circuit boards and suchlike, though.
Not a HVAC guy, but at 17 degrees it will probably never shut off. Efficiency on a heat pump falls off pretty fast as the outside temperature drops. Mine at 25 degrees outside runs constantly to keep the inside above 65. That's with a modern variable speed compressor and fan. Anything in the 20s it's running wide open most of the time. Granted my old house doesn't have the best insulation.
Here in the Mountains of NC, at Heatpump would not be viable as the sole heat for a home unless you wanted it to run constantly and not keep you very warm. Most people with heat pumps in this climate use alternative heat in the winter, oil, gas or wood. Just my un-educated opinion but don't think a heat pump would do well replacing a oil furnace.
new heat pumps are very good. My parents have one in Philadelphia and it works perfect. Though the house is a bit cold for me.
i would check with a good contractor in your area. The local utility companies and the state will generally give you a rebate for putting in more efficient stuff. When my parents upgraded the rebates paid for half the whole shooting match.
A heat pump will be great maybe 9 months out of the year. In the coldest part of winter, you really need some sort of supplemental heat. Even here in central Virginia, when it gets much below 20, the emergency heat kicks on. For me, that consists of electric coils in the AHU. Even so, my bill usually tops out just over 300 bucks. We're all electric, so I don't have a gas bill to add to that. I figure that's not too bad, but I suspect my next one may break 400 for the first time since we've been here.
I'd be happy with $300- $400 a month. I'm thinking about going all electric, slap some solar on the roof as well.
Andrew-
You'll freeze your cajones with just a heat pump. Oil is pretty tough, but propane isn't too bad. You can get a decent sized new(gas) boiler for under $1100 and not have to change anything but the orifice. Most come with either gas or propane, and many times both. Adapt to your existing radiation and you're good to go. To switch to electric, you'll have to add new baseboards, wiring etc., IF your service is adequate. Solar panels are O.K. if you want to be a greenie, but if you want heat, and electricity, they're woefully lacking in your area. They're great down south where it's warmer(most of the time) A neighbor just had 12 -225watt panels installed on his roof. The tab came to just under $18,500. There is a federal tax credit and a rebate from the state(NY), and the utility. He will get approx.3100KW annually. His usage averages 1100-1200kw/month. The tax credit is nice, it comes right off his federal tax tab, but it is a one shot deal. He'll end up getting not even 3 months annually of electric for free or about $300-$350. At that rate, his payback will be somewhere between 35 and fifty years(or more!). They can be good though, for a supplemental hot water system.
Pennsylvania just deregulated the electricity, so now we can choose any company to buy it from, though the cost for it is higher. Which means the payback on solar panels is cheaper. I do like the oil burner, its what my parents and grand parents use, but the cost of it keeps rising. I'm spending about $650 every 2 months in the winter for oil, on a 40 year old model that is only 60% efficient. My electricity bill is high only during the summer months, the heat last summer sucked ass.
I'm thinking about pulling out the base board hydronic system altogether, adding a water heater for washing, and forced air heating and cooling. I can then use the chimney that was used for oil for a second wood stove, or maybe coal. I have a coal stove at my grandmothers I can have, just have to get it down the stairs to the basement.
I have a $15,000 low interest loan through the government, its a non secured loan at 2% fixed, I can only use the funds for energy improvements. I need to run the numbers, but am thinking that a forced air heat pump might be cheaper then my oil system.
Andrew
Having grown up in PA (Carlisle, Indiana, Erie), I can say that electric heat is pretty dang expensive.
Some ideas that I've used over the years:
1) Set the heat in the house to 50 and use a space heater in the bedroom.
2) Woodstove in the basement - which is only cheap if you have access to free or cheap wood, and its labor intensive... but oh, so warm.
3) Consider having a large natural gas tank installed that the gas company can come fill every once in a while.
Last time I crunched the numbers while living in Indiana, PA, the cost to heat a house with CNG or some other gas was about 60% cheaper than electric heat pumps. Heat pumps are incredibly inefficient, especially with very low temps.
My parents still use an oil-fired furnace which heats a large hot water tank, and the house has hot-water baseboard radiators. But they also have a woodstove which they run from about November to March. When the woodstove is on, the baseboards almost never come on unless its insanely cold.
Try to find some numbers, but about 10 years ago my parents did the research and determined that simply upgrading their oil furnace to a newer, more efficient model was the best for them, but that may be partly because their primary heat is from the woodstove.
and just a sidenote... natural gas is also preferred here in TX. Electric heat pumps are still far less efficient even through we only get about 10 freezing nights a year.
You really need to find a good heating contractor, although the trick will be finding one who isn't biased towards any particular option and will look at your situation objectively.
Right now, you haven't given enough information to make anything other than anecdotal comments. Size of house? Level of insulation? Land orientation? All of these make a difference with regards to some of your ideas.
For one, solar is not a great application for electric heat. Especially in Northern PA. For one, the days are shorter, so your collection time is less. Second, the angle of the sun during the Winter reduces the available energy. Third, since you will need the heat more at night, you will need a way to store the electricity (batteries) which adds additional costs.
My gut says the best option would be to replace the existing ancient boiler with a new one. I wouldn't be surprised if you saw a significant savings.
Roof points south for the most part, house is roughly 1400 sq ft, insulation is being worked on as we speak/type. I need to finish air sealing the house, and will be bringing the attic to a R-40 with blown in fiberglass. I'll also be adding a layer of insulation to the roof, most likely a R-20 or so, just to keep the attic temps down in the summer.
I'm limited in my options, I cannot have a natural gas or propane tank in my yard, as per local regs. So its oil or electric. Another option I have been mulling over is adding 3 mini splits in my house to supplement the heating and cooling load. They are heat pumps, but might help in the 3 other seasons of the year to reduce my energy bill.
I've been looking at a high efficiency oil fired boiler, they aren't cheap and with the volatile oil market as it is, makes me a little scared at going down that road. I've been looking at the trane units, they are 86.7% efficient. Much better then the 60% I'm at now. I am in the search for a honest opinion from a HVAC company, someone that can crunch the numbers and try to point me in the best way to go, I don't mind spending the money now, if it pays off in the long run.
Andrew
IAN F, if you want to come see what I mean, property layout and all. I'm within 20 minutes from you, in west bristol. By Georgians restaurant.
Andrew
Heat pumps are very inefficient in colder regions. Additionally, the air temperature at the outlet vent is approximately 85. Body temperature is 98, so it will ALWAYS feel like it is blowing cold (most Yankees aren't used to this). You will no longer have those roasty radiators to set your boots on or sit your fanny on.
It sounds like you are already prepared for the fact that you may need supplemental heat.
You won't get an "honest" opinion from any HVAC company. Each sells a particular product that they are familiar with, and most chose those products in part because they thought the product was a good one.
Don't forget that you will loose a LOT of space to duct work. This probably should be done before you blow the attic.
Also, if you do not have AC right now, it is unlikely your summer bills will come down. Once you've got it, you'll use it.
Having said all that, it sounds like a good option for you. With the budget you've got, I'd suggest looking into a geothermal loop heat pump system with a high velocity forced air. The ground temperature will remain more constant than the air temperature for the heat pump condensor, and the high velocity ductwork will be much easier to locate in an existing building. With a supplemental heat source, you should do pretty well.
Are their stipulations on the loan? You may be restricted to what you can buy? I had a friend that put in a wood fired boiler that free stands outside by his garage as a supplemental unit, circulates hot water. Maybe your coal unit could be retrofitted in a similar fashion? What if you lose electricity? No easy answers here.
digdug18 wrote:IAN F, if you want to come see what I mean, property layout and all. I'm within 20 minutes from you, in west bristol. By Georgians restaurant.
Andrew
Wow... I drive by there on the way home sometimes taking the side street Georgians is on the corner of to get from 95 to my house in Croydon (I'm on the same side of Rt 13). We'll have to keep this in mind in case we want to start a Clallenge project. 
FWIW, we're in Southeast PA... not Northeast.
Unfortuantely, coal is not really a viable option for us. It would be if you lived in NE PA, which is why some folks were suggesting it.
Solar-hydronic really only works well for radiant floor heating. This is because the water temp for radiant floor is less than what is required for hydronic baseboard or radiators. Roughly 120 deg vs. 170 deg. You would still need a booster to get the water up to the correct temp. It can, and has, been done, but it adds complexity and additional controls to your system and thus additional points of failure.
I've gotten some of the same notices regarding deregulation. There is no guarantee we will be seeing a reducation in electric costs. It's actually quite the opposite, so I'm not sure this is a great time to be considering a switch to an electric-based heating system.
I do understand your situation, somewhat, as mine is similar - oil-heat, forced air. However, my house is considerably smaller (about 600 sqr ft, although my insulation sucks) and I go through about one 250 gal tank each season.
That said, a complete change in the heating system for a house is generally only viable when done as part of a larger renovation when other changes are being done.
If you want some help adding insulation or air sealing, let me know. I'm in southeast now, born up state a bit further, but yeah, still out of philly and that is the most important thing in my book.
I could be tempted to go the challenge car route, there is a couple guys up by doylestown that might be willing to lend a hand as well.
Yeah around my house, its either electric or oil, no gas. and bristol township sucks ass. I wish i was only going through a 250 gallon tank a season, that would be ideal. About a tank every 2 months or month in a half.
Coal isn't that bad, you can find it within an hours drive for cheap.
Yeah, I'm on brightside ave, if you took a left onto newport road, then the next left after the little house after Georgians, i'm right down there.
Andrew
I've had thoughts about coal, although mainly to heat my g/f's garage. Mainly since I would just go to a bulk dealer and have a couple of yards dumped into the bed of my truck (no - haven't looked at the legal implications about this idea). I've also had similar thoughts with regards to oil - buy a couple of 55 gal drums, fill at a farm-diesel pump (over $1/gal less than the delivered price I've been paying) and then dump into my tank at home.
He'll, I've even considered brewing biodiesel, considering I have both a TDI and a Cummins as well as the house heating...
you need to get on the Philadelphia Energy Coop $20 a year and access to cheaper oil prices
I've got a heat pump split unit for my office at work. It doesn't do squat below 32* or so. The oil in the pump supposedly freezes.
