Keith wrote:Around here, the concrete installers (and small paving operations) are pretty hungry. You might get some good installed prices.
Those prices are down approx $1,00 from two years ago when we started looking. Remeber this is Michigan
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June 2, 2009 3:45 p.m. Adrian_Thompson Reader
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June 2, 2009 4:06 p.m. Tim Baxter Online Editor
I need to get another quote. Last time I got one, it was $12,000
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June 2, 2009 4:19 p.m. Datsun1500 HalfDork
porksboy wrote: No way in hell would I waste the money for a concrete or asphalt driveway. (unless I won the lottery)
Then I guess making mine heated so I did not have to shovel snow was really over the top.....
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June 2, 2009 9:02 p.m. Duke Dork
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
Forget two pours, it would have to be a saw cut, more $$ to rent.
Why wouldn't you DIY?
Because I wouldn't want to try to form and finish over a thousand square feet of concrete by myself, certainly not in one pour. And certainly not with a retaining wall involved. To me the extra money is worth it for the professional results.
And 7,000psi concrete for a drive definitely is overbuilding. Heck, sidewalks and commercial interior slabs are usually 2500-3000 psi. I wouldn't think you'd need more than 4000-5000psi tops, at 4" thick, for a anything less than truck parking.
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June 3, 2009 1:57 a.m. Wally UberDork
Datsun1500 wrote:
porksboy wrote: No way in hell would I waste the money for a concrete or asphalt driveway. (unless I won the lottery)
Then I guess making mine heated so I did not have to shovel snow was really over the top.....
My wife thought I was the only one dumb enough to think of that. I want to run a line from my pond, through the driveway and back to the pond. It never gets cold enough for the pond to freeze to the bottom
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June 3, 2009 8:09 a.m. Jensenman MegaDork
My driveway and slab for the Garage Majal cost $4500.00. This is easily a 65 foot long x 9 foot wide driveway and a 26x26 slab. It's all 3000 PSI mix. Of course, around here we don't see the low temps of Michigan etc., 20 degrees is like the Ice Age all over again.
I built a garage at a house I had before and I did the slab myself. I'll gladly pay someone to do it before I will kill myself like that again.
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June 3, 2009 7:43 p.m. Datsun1500 HalfDork
Wally wrote:
Datsun1500 wrote:
porksboy wrote: No way in hell would I waste the money for a concrete or asphalt driveway. (unless I won the lottery)
Then I guess making mine heated so I did not have to shovel snow was really over the top.....
My wife thought I was the only one dumb enough to think of that. I want to run a line from my pond, through the driveway and back to the pond. It never gets cold enough for the pond to freeze to the bottom
Only issue there is you need to run antifreeze in the water, not something you want in a pond. The water will freeze in the small diameter pipes without it. Then you need the automatic snow sensor so it turns itself on if snow starts to fall....
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June 4, 2009 12:59 p.m. Jake HalfDork
Datsun1500 wrote:
Wally wrote:
Datsun1500 wrote:
porksboy wrote: No way in hell would I waste the money for a concrete or asphalt driveway. (unless I won the lottery)
Then I guess making mine heated so I did not have to shovel snow was really over the top.....
My wife thought I was the only one dumb enough to think of that. I want to run a line from my pond, through the driveway and back to the pond. It never gets cold enough for the pond to freeze to the bottom
Only issue there is you need to run antifreeze in the water, not something you want in a pond. The water will freeze in the small diameter pipes without it. Then you need the automatic snow sensor so it turns itself on if snow starts to fall....
I can see something being worked out with some kind of passive solar collector, n old aluminum radiator, a solar fountain pump, etc. Rigging this up in such a way as not to make a hideous contraption guaranteed to ruin property value is the trick.
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June 4, 2009 2:24 p.m. Adrian_Thompson Reader
OK, removing the old concrete. It look like I have 'approx' 15-16 yards of old concrete to remove. Google indicates that concrete weighs 3,500 - 4,000 lb's per yard. That's a whooping 64,000lb's of concrete to dispose of !!!!!! This is looking bigger and bigger all the time. I guess just any old dumpster won't do. Any advice?
Jack hammer rental from Home Depot is $80 a day, I figure 2 days should do it. Break up the lower part of the drive and move the concrete, have the dumpster dropped on what is now dirt and fill the whole thing. Have dumpster removed then start prepping.
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June 4, 2009 2:49 p.m. Adrian_Thompson Reader
HHmm well answering my own Questions
1) I've found a dumpster company that takes concrete, walk in 10 yard dumpsters for $200 plus $200 for each switch, as long as I stack it I should be able to fit in 2 loads so that's $424 inc tax
2) 4,000psi concrete with fiberglass mixed in, 16 yards delivered $1,870.
3) Power buggy to move it around as that's cheaper than pumping $125
4) Float rental $25
5) Jack hammer (2 days) $170
6) Wood for forms $100
7) Misc $200
All prices are inc tax and rounded up. Total approx. $2,900What am I missing or forgotten?
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June 4, 2009 3:43 p.m. rl48mini New Reader
I think the weight you quoted is per cubic yard not square yard.
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June 4, 2009 4:50 p.m. Jensenman MegaDork
You need a good bit of help, preferably someone with experience.
If there is rebar in the existing slab, you'll need a way to cut it quickly (torch?) or it's going to take a lot longer than 2 days to bust up.
'Screeing' off the concrete to make it level is a lot harder than it looks. You need at least two people and a long enough board to go all the way across the form to make it go quickly and look right. If you try to level it with the float and 'float' it too much water will perk up out of the mix and make puddles which look like hell later on.
You'll need one of those big super stiff bristle brush brooms for the 'scratch coat'. Don't skip this step, it adds traction and also covers up a lot of mistakes.
You also need edging tools to shape the edge of the slab so it doesn't have sharp stuff sticking out everywhere. Those are usually pretty cheap ($3-$5). The time window for the edge forming and scratch coating is fairly small and a hot dry day will make it go by real fast. That's where someone with experience will come in handy.
Have you figured for expansion joints? I forget what they call the stuff that's used, it looks a lot like black drywall. You are better off doing that, if you cut expansion joints with a saw and expose any rebar or wire you'll have rust puddles very quickly.
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June 4, 2009 5:04 p.m. Keith UberDork
Yeah, I'm pretty sure a "yard" in concrete is a cubic yard.
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June 4, 2009 8:48 p.m. Adrian_Thompson Reader
Yup, when I said yards I was refering to cubic yards.
Rat's forgot about the cost of the saw to cut the expansion joints. I'll check on that tomorrow.
I can rent or make a scree.
Edge tools are coverd. The FIL has those. My one concrete experience prior to this was a 9x9x4 slab, approx 1 yard. With that I found the prep was that hardest. The finishing was actualy the easy part. Admitidly this is a lot bigger project, but it's the same idea.
Adrian
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June 5, 2009 6:18 a.m. Datsun1500 HalfDork
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
All prices are inc tax and rounded up. Total approx. $2,900
What am I missing or forgotten?
You are missing the fact that you are getting quotes for $4500. Right now you are saving $1500 if you have not forgotten anything, in reality you will be saving about a grand. Is it worth that much work for a grand? If something goes wrong how quickly will you eat up that savings? Is there any kind of warranty if someone else does it?
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June 5, 2009 11:06 a.m. Hal HalfDork
Datsun1500 wrote:
You are missing the fact that you are getting quotes for $4500. Right now you are saving $1500 if you have not forgotten anything, in reality you will be saving about a grand. Is it worth that much work for a grand? If something goes wrong how quickly will you eat up that savings? Is there any kind of warranty if someone else does it?
And having worked one summer for a company doing concrete driveways I would gladly pay the extra $1500 to have someone else do it.
If you DIY make sure you have plenty of help. The minimum crew size when I did it was 4 and most of the time we had 6.
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June 9, 2009 9:53 a.m. Adrian_Thompson Reader
Looks like I'm going to be writing a check. I was hoping to pay an out of work friend to do much of the break up and haul away, but after carfull consideration 60 tons of concrete is too much. Time to suck it up and pay!
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June 9, 2009 7:03 p.m. SVreX UberDork
2500- 3000 PSI is more than sufficient. A 3000 lb car riding on 4 tires with 6"x 8" contact patches exerts less then 16 lbs per square inch of compressive strength. You won't be breaking the concrete because of compression.
All concrete cracks. Control joints just decide where it will crack.
The reason driveways crack more frequently at the apron is not because the concrete is too thin. It is because aprons are built on 12- 24" of fill that is not properly compacted, and have culverts running through them which are channels for water. Water seeps around the culvert, fill settles and compacts, then the unsupported concrete cracks.
You'd have to be nuts to pour a driveway yourself. If you don't believe this truism, go ahead. Then tell us about your change of thinking on the issue (yes, I've poured one myself).
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June 9, 2009 7:06 p.m. SVreX UberDork
Oh, forgot...
You can't wait 'till the concrete cures to cut in the control joints. If you are going to cut control joints, they should be cut in BEFORE it fully sets (less than 24 hours).
If you wait to cut them in longer, the stress cracks from drying will already be determined in the concrete, and the controls will not do anything. The cracks will run where they want to.
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June 9, 2009 7:21 p.m. fastEddie Dork
I've been thinking of replacing the 57's that currently make up my driveway with these - http://www.paversearch.com/grass-pavers-introduction.htm But am not sure if it would be worth the trouble.
For future reference dumpsters, especially those being used for concrete debris, have weight limits so you may not be able to fill it up completely (although that is also why they send small dumpsters when you tell them it's for concrete).
I would also recommend Air Entrainment for any exterior exposed concrete.
gubberment said:
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/materialsgrp/airentr.htmExtensive laboratory testing and field investigation concluded that the formation of minute air bubbles dispersed uniformly through the cement paste increased the freeze-thaw durability of concrete. This formation can be achieved through the use of organic additives, which enable the bubbles to be stabilized or entrained within the fresh concrete (Whiting 1983, ACI Comm. 212 1963). These additives are called air-entraining agents.
Oh, and if you were still thinking of doing it yourself, how do you plan to get the broken concrete into the dumpster? With a shovel and wheel barrow?
A friend with a bobcat is your best friend in this case!
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June 10, 2009 6:16 a.m. Jensenman MegaDork
A neighbor about 10 houses down is retired military and has a small backhoe/dump truck business. He decided to bust up his driveway (maybe 26 wide x 35 feet long, not as long as mine) and replace it with pavers on gravel/sand base. No kidding, he worked on the thing for a MONTH.
He just finished it two days ago. That doesn't include the time he spent adding a knee wall around one side of the garage (lot slopes to the rear) so he could add another parking space for his boat.
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June 10, 2009 7:35 a.m. Adrian_Thompson Reader
SVreX wrote: The reason driveways crack more frequently at the apron is not because the concrete is too thin. It is because aprons are built on 12- 24" of fill that is not properly compacted, and have culverts running through them which are channels for water. Water seeps around the culvert, fill settles and compacts, then the unsupported concrete cracks.
I'm not concerned about that. The existing driveway is 56 years old, while there are a couple of cracks and one small heave between two slabs (1/2") there is very little cracking. The real issue is the surface is breaking up and spalling (sp?) I think the base is obviously solid.SVreX wrote: You'd have to be nuts to pour a driveway yourself. If you don't believe this truism, go ahead. Then tell us about your change of thinking on the issue (yes, I've poured one myself).
Check above, I waved the white flag yesterday, I'm going to write a check. Some one suggested one more company to get a quote from, I'll do that and hope to get this sorted in the next couple of weeks before I go on vacation.
Adrian
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June 10, 2009 8:36 a.m. SVreX UberDork
Got it, Adrian. Good decisions.
My comments weren't directed at you. They were general info to the rest of this thread (and to the original poster).
