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  March 9, 2009 9:23 a.m. Rangeball Reader

  So my wife and I decided to rent an old home while I finish grad school. I have been doing some work around the house and came across this problem when trying to get the front door light working. This switch is on the inside and next to the front door. It is supposed to be two switches; one I assume for the living room and the second for the front door light. Here is what I have when I uncovered the panel:

  

  It looks like instead of having a switch the whole thing is just wired straight through. This would explain why I can't get certain lights to turn off. I am no electrician, I was hoping someone on here can help confirm my suspicions. I wanted to rewire both switches but because this is such an old house, I hate messing with too much. This just looks terrible.

  Thanks for the help.

  -Will

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  March 9, 2009 9:40 a.m. Dr. Hess PowerDork

  It doesn't look wired straight through to me. The ground (bare) wires are connected. The common (white) wires are connected. The "hot" wire (black) is switched. There's 2 pieces of Romex, one probably from the breaker panel (eventually) and the other going to the light. Looks pretty straight forward to me. What is the problem?

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  March 9, 2009 9:53 a.m. NYG95GA Dork

  If indeed the switches are to work two lights ( living room, porch), then each piece of romex should be a simple switch "leg". If you disconnect all the wires, let them hang individually, and remove the light bulbs from both fixtures, you should not have any "hot" wires in the box. You can check with either a simple tester, or a multimeter. My first guess would be to install two switches: one to each piece of romex. Treat them as seperate circuits; the last guy to do it treated them as one, and that's likely where the other problems arise.

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  March 9, 2009 10:57 a.m. Rangeball Reader

  Well, thanks for all of the help. It turns out it is only for one switch. The second switch is an imagine switch. You know, imagine that this could turn off something else...

  Any ways, the switch was bad because once I changed the switch, the front porch light worked. Again, thanks for the help. I have learned something new today too.

  -Will

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  March 9, 2009 11:28 a.m. NYG95GA Dork

  I'll bet that the other wire is supposed to connect to something else. Why would it be there if it didn't? Perhaps some of the outlets in the living room. Are they still all working? Many houses have a switch-controlled outlets for lamps, in the absence of a ceiling fixture.

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  March 9, 2009 11:46 a.m. Rangeball Reader

  NYG95GA wrote:

  I'll bet that the other wire is supposed to connect to something else. Why would it be there if it didn't? Perhaps some of the outlets in the living room. Are they still all working? Many houses have a switch-controlled outlets for lamps, in the absence of a ceiling fixture.

  I am sure it is supposed to turn on something. At this point though it works and I don't want to mess with it too much. There is a ceiling fan and some lamps above the fire place with no switch, just always on. I have a feeling this second switch is supposed to do that role.

  If it is supposed to be for a second switch, how should the wiring look?

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  March 9, 2009 12:01 p.m. jrw1621 HalfDork

  How it should look for two switches:

  One black wire and one white to each switch.
  The bare wire attached to the green.
  Read the back of the switch, it will say which goes where.

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  March 9, 2009 12:05 p.m. NYG95GA Dork

  One pair of black/white wires (switch leg) should go to one switch,, and one pair should go to the other switch; it should be as simple as that. No wires in the box should be tied together.

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  March 9, 2009 12:36 p.m. Rangeball Reader

  What about the bare cooper wire. I tested that with my multi-meter and there is a current. Earlier when I had one white/black to one switch and the bare cooper wire attached to the green part of the switch, it flipped the breaker when I flipped the switch.

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  March 9, 2009 12:44 p.m. iceracer Reader

  The bare copper wire is the ground wire. Shouldn't be attached to a hot wire.

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  March 9, 2009 12:46 p.m. Dr. Hess PowerDork

  Are we all lookin' at the same picture here? How many wires do you guys see? How many pieces of Romex do you guys see? Where are you seeing extra wires? Why would no wires be tied together? You guys have done house wiriing before, right? Draw me or describe to me a schematic where a white and black wire go to a switch. Guess what happens when you turn the switch on? POOF, you trip the breaker and may burn the switch out.

  If you had two "things" switched in one switch box, this is what you would see: One Romex coming from the breaker, two Romex's going out, all the whites tied together, all the bare coppers tied together, one black wire from "thing" 1 going to 1 switch, 1 black wire going to "thing" 2 to the other switch, 1 black wire from the breaker Romex to the first switch with a jumper to the second switch. Bare copper wire to the bare copper wire terminal (green) on both switches and the other bare wires all twisted together.

  Maybe you should call an electrician before someone gets hurt here.

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  March 9, 2009 12:50 p.m. cwh Dork

  If you took the hot lead from the breaker box and wired the black to one side of the switch and the white to the other, you placed a dead short across the circuit when you threw the switch. You are lucky. I assume that when you said you tested from line to ground (black to bare) you said you had current, but what you should have is voltage. Measuring from white to ground you should not have voltage, as the white wires are normally connected to the ground in the breaker box. The biggest problem is that you are messing with electric in an old home, where any number of jackleg electricians, handymen, and owners have been playing for years and probably have not been following the rules. Really, this is a time when using a pro could save your life and/ or your home. Old houses scare me, and I work on low voltage. I have had some very unpleasant surprises.

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  March 9, 2009 1:00 p.m. cwh Dork

  I agree with Hess. This is a simple single circuit. Everything is wired correctly. You say this is an old house, but that box and the switch are recent. Push in wire connections and blue plastic boxes have not been in use that long. Also, the mounting of the box is suspect, indicating the installer was not a pro. Be VERY careful working on any electric in that house. I can almost guarantee some more poor workmanship there. I am curious what the breaker box looks like.

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  March 9, 2009 1:25 p.m. Rangeball Reader

  cwh wrote:

  I agree with Hess. This is a simple single circuit. Everything is wired correctly. You say this is an old house, but that box and the switch are recent. Push in wire connections and blue plastic boxes have not been in use that long. Also, the mounting of the box is suspect, indicating the installer was not a pro. Be VERY careful working on any electric in that house. I can almost guarantee some more poor workmanship there. I am curious what the breaker box looks like.

  I am heeding all advice here and leaving this well enough alone. If you do want a picture of the breaker box I can provide that.
  

  As of now, the front porch light turns on/off and thats all I wanted. Thanks for the help.

  -Will

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  March 9, 2009 1:35 p.m. cwh Dork

  Yeah, just put your wire connectors back on, push everything back in place, and leave it alone. Something else acts up, call the owner, it's really his responsibility. This is a Life Safety issue. Inspectors love that phrase.

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  March 9, 2009 1:58 p.m. SVreX UberDork

  Your wiring is correct.

  The line from the panel comes into the box. The neutral wire (white) and the ground (bare) are permanently wired through to the light. The hot (black) is broken through the switch. When you flip the switch, it completes the circuit.

  But this box never had 2 separate switches in it. If it ever worked 2 separate lights, they were wired in series, one from the previous (not individually from this box).

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  March 9, 2009 10:48 p.m. cwh Dork

  Not too sure about that. No, not likely two circuits were ever controlled from this switch, and all residential wiring should be in parallel, But again, I have seen things wired in series. One of many reasons why old electrical systems scare me.

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  March 9, 2009 10:58 p.m. EastCoastMojo Dork

  This really needs to be moved to the electrical board

  How many forum members does it take to change a light bulb...

  -1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed
  -14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently
  -7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs
  -1 to move it to the Lighting section
  -2 to argue then move it to the Electricals section
  -7 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs
  -5 to flame the spell checkers
  -3 to correct spelling/grammar flames
  -6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" ... another 6 to condemn those 6 as stupid
  -2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp"
  -15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "light bulb" is perfectly correct
  -19 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a lightbulb forum
  -11 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum
  -36 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty
  -7 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs
  -4 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's
  -3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group
  -13 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too"
  -5 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy
  -4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"
  -13 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs"
  -3 crazy mods warn people to stop insulting and then bust them in the head with the ban/suspension stick if they don't listen
  -3 to recommend using l.e.d.s
  -1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again.

• 

  March 10, 2009 5:10 a.m. NYG95GA Dork

  EastCoastMojo wrote:

  This really needs to be moved to the electrical board

  How many forum members does it take to change a light bulb...

  -1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed
  -14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently
  -7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs
  -1 to move it to the Lighting section
  -2 to argue then move it to the Electricals section
  -7 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs
  -5 to flame the spell checkers
  -3 to correct spelling/grammar flames
  -6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" ... another 6 to condemn those 6 as stupid
  -2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp"
  -15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "light bulb" is perfectly correct
  -19 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a lightbulb forum
  -11 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum
  -36 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty
  -7 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs
  -4 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's
  -3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group
  -13 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too"
  -5 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy
  -4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"
  -13 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs"
  -3 crazy mods warn people to stop insulting and then bust them in the head with the ban/suspension stick if they don't listen
  -3 to recommend using l.e.d.s
  -1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again.

  Me too!

• 

  March 10, 2009 5:58 a.m. Wally UltraDork

  EastCoastMojo wrote:

  This really needs to be moved to the electrical board

  Sockets?

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  March 10, 2009 6:01 a.m. Mazdax605 Reader

  Dr. Hess wrote:

  Are we all lookin' at the same picture here? How many wires do you guys see? How many pieces of Romex do you guys see? Where are you seeing extra wires? Why would no wires be tied together? You guys have done house wiriing before, right? Draw me or describe to me a schematic where a white and black wire go to a switch. Guess what happens when you turn the switch on? POOF, you trip the breaker and may burn the switch out.

  If you had two "things" switched in one switch box, this is what you would see: One Romex coming from the breaker, two Romex's going out, all the whites tied together, all the bare coppers tied together, one black wire from "thing" 1 going to 1 switch, 1 black wire going to "thing" 2 to the other switch, 1 black wire from the breaker Romex to the first switch with a jumper to the second switch. Bare copper wire to the bare copper wire terminal (green) on both switches and the other bare wires all twisted together.

  Maybe you should call an electrician before someone gets hurt here.

  What these guys could be trying to describe is a simple form of wiring where you bring the power for the device you want to be controlled to the device first. From there you take the white wire from the source cable,and attach it direct to the device(light,fan,etc),and you take the black(read hot lead),and splice it to the white wire of the romex traveling down to the switch. Now you have power going to the switch,and you attach the black,and white leads to the switch,and your black wire becomes the switched lead to control the device(fan,light,etc). It is very common,and allows you to run less wire,but the draw back is that in the switch box you don't have a neutral lead whatsoever,so you cannot feed to another switch box,or outlets from there.

  I see wiring like this a lot in ranch style houses built in the 70's,as it seem to be a common way of the electricians to save on wire.

  I cannot however tell you if this is the way your switch should be wired,but something does look odd,in that you have a 2-gang box there,and two switches. Why would someone go to the trouble of cutting out a two gang box,and that is definatey an old work box meaning it wasn't there when the house was built,so someone added it after wards,or cut it out larger which would lead me to believe the wires were snaked in after the fact when the box was added.

  If I had a way of drawing on the screen I could show you the schematic real easy,and yes I am an electrician.

  Chris

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  March 10, 2009 6:35 a.m. SVreX UberDork

  Come on, guys! Where do you see 2 switches??

  There are 2 romex wires. One comes from the bottom, one from the top.

  This is how it is wired when there is a hot line coming in the box. The other way (described by Mazda605 above) would have only 1 piece of Romex, and both the white and the black would be attached to the switch.

  It is an old work remodel box in a plaster wall.

  There were NEVER 2 switches in this location. In fact, at one time there wasn't even 1.

  If it had been original, it would be a metal new work box, smaller than typical, plastered into place with bx or cloth sheathed wire in it, not romex.

  The switch was cut in as an afterthought. The line comes from below (probably a crawl space), and the fixture is above. The wires were fished in. The bigger box was used to get their arm in when they tried to fish the wire in the wall, because it was a PITA to get through the plaster wall.

  THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THE WIRING.

  -30 years as a contractor (I guess that makes me one of Mojo's industry professionals! )

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  March 10, 2009 8:52 a.m. Mazdax605 Reader

  SVreX wrote:

  Come on, guys! Where do you see 2 switches??

  There are 2 romex wires. One comes from the bottom, one from the top.

  This is how it is wired when there is a hot line coming in the box. The other way (described by Mazda605 above) would have only 1 piece of Romex, and both the white and the black would be attached to the switch.

  It is an old work remodel box in a plaster wall.

  There were NEVER 2 switches in this location. In fact, at one time there wasn't even 1.

  If it had been original, it would be a metal new work box, smaller than typical, plastered into place with bx or cloth sheathed wire in it, not romex.

  The switch was cut in as an afterthought. The line comes from below (probably a crawl space), and the fixture is above. The wires were fished in. The bigger box was used to get their arm in when they tried to fish the wire in the wall, because it was a PITA to get through the plaster wall.

  THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THE WIRING.

  -30 years as a contractor (I guess that makes me one of Mojo's industry professionals! )

  I agree there is probably nothing wrong with the way he has it wired,but he did clearly say there WAS another switch there,and it is indeed a two gang box,so that is possible. The fact that it is romex,and a plastic box doesn't mean it was added afterwards,but the fact that the style of box (old work) does indeed mean it was added after the fact. At least here in New England Romex has been used as home wiring for decades,and plastic boxes are nothing new either.

  Again I beleieve the wiring is indeed correct,but the fact that there WAS another switch,and a two gang box has me a bit perplexed. It may just be what you said about cutting a larger hole to get your hands in there,but man that is quite hackey,and judging by the way the romex is stripped I would believe it was done by an amateur. I wonder why they installed a dummy switch when you could just get a cover plate that was blank on one half,and a switch on the other,or buy the little blank off plug that would go in the hole for the second switch. But again I am doubting this was done by a proffesional,and therefore they had no idea about these products.

  Don't worry about what you did though it looks legit.

  Chris

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  March 10, 2009 9:51 a.m. Rangeball Reader

  Thanks everyone for the help. I am perplexed as to why the wiring is for one switch but there are two switches in the box. For all of the reasons posted above, I intend to just leave it well enough alone.
  

  On a side note, Comcast hates this house too. Apparently when I installed my APC (battery backup) unit for my computer, it was causing an arc through the cable line! (APC, computer and cable modem were all on the same socket) There was also an exposed outlet outside. I put in a new switch and covered it.
  

  Oh the joy of living in an old home!

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  March 10, 2009 10:16 a.m. Schmidlap New Reader

  For all the lawyers out there, what kind of liability is Rangerball opening himself up to by doing all this electrical work in a house he is renting when he is clearly not a licensed electrician? If he tries to fix something that the owner screwed up and the house burns down next week, could he be held responsible if poor wiring has been found to be the cause?

  Just curious. Bob

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