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  March 29, 2011 1:02 p.m. Derick Freese Dork

  I feel that far too many school administrators are there because of who they know. I also don't feel like school superintendents should be elected (as they are in my school district), but should be brought in from outside of the district. Our current model puts too much emphasis on getting reelected and keeping all of their friends and family employed.

  And madmallard, your last post is spot on. Kids don't hear that they failed anymore, and parents don't want their kids to fail, but they don't want to help their kids at home.

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  March 29, 2011 1:22 p.m. Brett_Murphy Reader

  In reply to madmallard:

  I know my position is idealistic, but that is what the education system is supposed to be doing. Anything that interferes with that goal should be thrown into the wood chipper and used as compost.

  I'm very much acquainted with how the system really works. Right now, my district might get rezoned from a good school to who-knows-what. I'm browsing the real estate market.

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  March 29, 2011 1:28 p.m. fast_eddie_72 HalfDork

  In reply to madmallard:

  Yeah, I'm 100% with you on that last post. Exactly.

  When I was a kid, we took standardized tests from time to time for exactly the reasons you lay out above. It was the right way to use them. Now, the results of the test determine the funding to the school, and at least here in Colorado, the pay raise for the teacher. If the kid fails, the teacher gets a pay cut. Man, you put me in that position, the damn kids gonna do well on the test whether he knows anything or not. I'll be damned if snot nosed Jimmy and his drug addicted mom are going to cost me a raise. And that’s exactly what’s happening. A load of teachers concerned far less with any education and far more on getting kids to fill in the right bubble on the test.

  You talk about the people with an interest setting the goals – well, that’s putting it really close to home. And here’s another one- if I’m a politician and I say I’m going to fix the schools, by God, I can make those kids pass the test too. Not showing improvement? Test must be too hard! Make it easier until I look like I did what I said I was going to do.

  With all that going on, are we really surprised that a lot of teachers have given up? How do you react when your boss micromanages your job?

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  March 29, 2011 1:36 p.m. madmallard Reader

  Yes, but this is also a product of a society largely educated by this system.

  They lack the critical thinking(or determination) to go more than 1 step deep into the problem.

  Paraphrasing Alan Keyes; do we really think that people produced by this system as it exists and has for this generation are going to be capable of dominating that system?

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  March 29, 2011 1:41 p.m. fast_eddie_72 HalfDork

  madmallard wrote:

  Yes, but this is also a product of a society largely educated by this system.

  Your point being that it is an indictment of the education system? I can't agree with that. A lot goes into raising a kid. Much more than what happens at school. We've made a lot of decisions that have left a lot of folks out of the happy zone. It's not reasonable to ask the schools to fix it all. We hear a lot about teenage pregnancy, and drug problems. You think all those folks using meth use protection or abstain from sex? Those kids end up in the schools too. We put more of our population in jail than any other country. A whole lot of those folks have kids. What kind of students do you think they make?

  That, honestly, is a much bigger part of the problem, and we have done very little to address it. We either do something that effectively helps those kids, or we cut bait. We're trying to have it both ways right now. You cram those kids in the school with kids who are trying to learn, force them to go, but offer no alternative to address the serious issues they bring with them, you're going to end up with something that looks a lot like the drop out factories in a lot of our cities.

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  March 29, 2011 3:01 p.m. madmallard Reader

  the problem with what you just said is its expanding the role of school from educator to social wellbeing provider and monitor.

  We already have had a problem since the 90s with teachers telling parents their kids need ritalin. Lol, medical degree wut?

  But to answer your first point, yes, I indicte the federal educational system as a whole. Both for being a bad idea in the first place wrought with politics more and substance less, and also for overstepping its bounds and losing focus too easily.

  People educated by this system are alot more susceptible in my view to politicians as a whole, weaker on critical thinking, and generally less capable of fighting off the scenario you put forward in your :28 post.

  But the problem I have with how people respond to this situation is to give the eduational department more money and more power.

  We spend more per child than pretty much any nation that I can think of, and we get our asses handed to us in testing and scholastics by nations spending fractions of the money.

  We shouldn't be giving the federal government more power where it has failed us from the beginning. Thats rewarding bad behavior, something I thought we agreed isn't something we should do.

  And the home life, while important, is immaterial to this discussion as it is largely a cultural problem, not a problem of the educational system. If people see it that way, then they're yet again giving more power to the federal government where it has none; power to dictate instances based on things outside of the educational system.

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  March 29, 2011 3:32 p.m. Derick Freese Dork

  Do you know what I feel would help out a lot? Bring back vocational education. Cutting out things that give job skills so that kids that aren't going to college can take care of themselves keeps them interested in school and off the streets when they grow up makes little sense. Heck, the vocational schools and classes we have now aren't all that great. Ask Tom Suddard about that one.
  

  There are also a lot of costs that could be cut or reduced. Sometimes cutting these costs HELPS the schools. Do you know how much it costs to purchase a curriculum? Some curriculums (I'm not naming names) require you to fly in their reps, put them up in hotels, feed them, and pay them a substantial sum, just for them to tell you that you're not doing their program right, or that you're doing it exactly right, but for some reason your grades are suffering across the board.

  Current teachers, for the most part, don't write these curriculums. It's people that are in it to profit greatly on the backs of the taxpayers that are writing these books. I remember someone on this site knows a representative for one of these firms that brings home in the mid 6 figures per year. I'm not going to get into class warfare or anything, but how much do you think the books cost if the guy selling them is making that much?

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  March 29, 2011 4:26 p.m. madmallard Reader

  Derick Freese wrote:

  Do you know what I feel would help out a lot? Bring back vocational education.

  THANK YOU.

  Omaigah, do people no longer realise that 'skills' are no less important than academics?

  Vocational skills have always been a backbone of the American way because Academics are NOT the future and fortune for everyone. Yet there has been both and intellectual and social stigmata being perpetuated, as well as an increase in unpopular union influences that end up "staining" vocations.

  The only things left in large supply are low level service related, like food, retail, and simple labor.

  When's the last time you've seen any of the following shops not SLAMMED busy, or had to wait (sometimes by appointment)to get service from in the last 20 years?

  Transmission service, body shop, metal fabrication, carpenter, plumber, communication line tech, exterminator...

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  March 29, 2011 4:37 p.m. fast_eddie_72 HalfDork

  madmallard wrote:

  We shouldn't be giving the federal government more power where it has failed us from the beginning. Thats rewarding bad behavior, something I thought we agreed isn't something we should do.

  And the home life, while important, is immaterial to this discussion as it is largely a cultural problem, not a problem of the educational system. If people see it that way, then they're yet again giving more power to the federal government where it has none; power to dictate instances based on things outside of the educational system.

  We completely agree that the federal nonsense needs to go. But I don't know how anyone can say that the issues of "home life" aren't a HUGE part of the problems with public education. It absolutely IS a problem for the educational system. And we do, have, and continue to dictate all kinds of things that have a dramatic - enormous impact on that situation.

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