Forza/GT vs AutoX challenge: Off-topic discussion forum: Grassroots Motorsports Magazine

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Jan. 26, 2010 3:20 p.m. scardeal Reader

I just wanted to get a benchmark on how much skills transfer there is between Forza/Gran Turismo and real life AutoX.

I guess the challenge would be to lap something like the Sidewinder full course track (King Cobra in Forza2, I think) in the car/configuration closest to your real life AutoX car.

So, for my wheels/tires 2007 350Z, I took a 2003 350Z and put 245 width all around, 18 inch rims, sport tire compound (in lieu of 275 all around on Nitto NT05) and a mild cam to get 311HP and 7500RPM redline for the VQ35HR equivalent. I'm using the new steering wheel.

I scored in the top 8% on C-class on Sidewinder full course. I've only AutoX'ed twice, but didn't completely stink. I'll have to go back to see my actual lap-time though.

What about you?
Jan. 26, 2010 4:00 p.m. ReverendDexter Dork

Honestly, I don't think all that much translates, and here's my logic.

1) Controls are totally different. 2) Input to your body is non-existant. 3) Visibility is very different, no turning your head to look through the apex.

With 1 and 2, you can get a good force-feedback wheel, and get some of that back. However, even with a G25 (one of the few wheels with an H-pattern shifter and clutch pedal), there's no resistance in the shifter (say if you you miss the clutch), the pedal resistances never change (no feel of brake fade), and you don't get the lateral g/body roll sensations that tell you what the car is doing.

Now, I DO think that the driving simulators are a good way to get used to a track layout. I'd feel much more comfortable driving a trackday at Road Atlanta than I would at VIR, simply because I've logged hundred of virtual laps at RA.
Jan. 26, 2010 4:09 p.m. Ian F Dork

Hard to say... I have used the techniques I learned in auto-x schools to look ahead and to concentrate on better braking and turn-in to improve my game play... so I suppose it helps a little by simple drilled repetition... but there just isn't that seat-of-the-pants feel of driving in real life.

Bear in mind, I'm playing Forza 1 in arcade mode using the default cars. I don't have the time to fiddle around with career mode where you can modify them. I'll turn in on, play a couple of rounds, and go on with my day.
Jan. 26, 2010 5:33 p.m. SupraWes Dork

I have had that question asked of me a few times. My answer always is, Autocross makes me a better FM/GT player but it doesn't work the other way around. They are fun games and can be used to familiarize yourself with a particular real world track and possibly help keep your hand eye coordination up in the off season but that's about it.
Jan. 26, 2010 5:41 p.m. 93celicaGT2 UltraDork

I can't see these games helping with Autox. Maybe vice versa as SupraWes said, but the only thing these games can really help is with track familiarity.
Jan. 26, 2010 5:50 p.m. Matt B Reader

I've only played the Gran Turismo and Forza franchises, but I also don't think much gaming translates to autocross either. I guess it's obvious, but the real thing is sensory overload compared to the games. The conditions change so quickly in autocross that I've never played a game that I thought came close to exercising the type of foresight and rhythm needed. The tracks the OP mentioned probably come about as close as one can get to a typical course, but I still call no-cigar. (Maybe someone has come across a better virtual course? Is iRacing all road courses?)

However, that certainly doesn't keep me from couch-racing my own "clone" setups. I say have fun and take it with a grain of salt.
Jan. 26, 2010 7:45 p.m. JoeyM Reader

Matt B wrote: (Maybe someone has come across a better virtual course? Is iRacing all road courses?)

I say have fun and take it with a grain of salt.

Live For Speed has a very large parking lot to practice in, and you can place cones, chalk lines, etc. on it. I've used it before to set up a simulated copy of the next weekend's course to give a relative practice so they would not get lost during their runs. Again, course familiarization......
Jan. 26, 2010 8:01 p.m. confuZion3 SuperDork

Honestly, and I think I'll get flamed for this, Forza and GT are pretty decent simulators and give you an idea about what it feels like to be on a race track. Sure, you aren't going to actually "feel" anything unless you have a wheel, but you do get pretty good physics and if you are in your off season (I hate winter), then you can keep yourself sharp by doing some laps in a car similar to your own.

Dexter, I somewhat disagree with you on point 3. You certainly can't look much farther than the apex without trying to jockey the right joystick in some fashion, but the view that you do have (even in the cockpit view) is about the total of your peripheral vision and your normal vision combined when looking straight ahead. What this means is that you, sitting on your couch, are the one to move your head and there it is--the apex to turn 1 at Road Atlanta.

It's only a game, but I found that there were some striking similarities between the way that my my F class 1994 Miata behaved in Forza and my own 1994 Miata (with roughly the same upgrades) behaved on the real track.

Your question was about skill transfer, specifically. I certainly do not believe that track time in Forza 3 counts AT ALL towards track time in a car in the real world unless you are already practiced in the real world and you are just trying to keep your apex-carving skills sharp. Try going to your very first track day, tell the instructors during the student classroom session that you are highly skilled in Forza 3, and see what they say to you (they'll laugh at you).

Flip it around, though, and I do believe that real-world track time has made me a better Forza 3 player and I think this will go for anybody.
Jan. 26, 2010 8:01 p.m. confuZion3 SuperDork

Damn, did I really write all that? ^^^^
Jan. 27, 2010 8:38 a.m. scardeal Reader

The thought that spurred me on this question was that I was complimented my first time out at AutoX for doing suprisingly well for a first timer.

Before that I had logged dozens (or possibly hundreds) of hours in a lightly modded 350Z, first on GT4, then on Forza 2 (with wheel) before I ever was able to fully drive the real 350Z in anger on an AutoX. I had owned the Z for maybe a year and a half at that point, and did not have the advantage of lots of curvy roads either in NOLA (Geaux Saints!) or MI.

I have memories of my first time playing GT3 (borrowed for a week or two) and GT4, and being frustrated that I was flying off the course so often. After some time though, I finally started to "get it", and that knowledge transferred over to Forza 2 and a steering wheel pretty well (with a slight learning curve). I had only played GT4 on a controller.

I suppose I find it hard to believe that a video game, if it has accurate physics, has absolutely NO impact on at least beginner AutoX performance.
Jan. 27, 2010 9:08 a.m. P71 SuperDork

It doesn't. Being OK for a first-timer and being a FTD contender are two different items. While a zillion electron laps might mean you won't look like a total squid your first time out, the reality is so much different from the real thing that it just doesn't translate.

They are good for learning new road course layouts though.
Jan. 27, 2010 10:54 a.m. oldtin Reader

I just got forza 3 the other day and did a skip barber class (present from the wife) a while back at road america. The course layout is great on the game. Braking points, shift points, turn ins are pretty well on the mark. But definitely not the sensory overload of being in a car - the elevation changes don't reflect on the game and no feel of things loading up or unloading. Also no smellavision, which plays into sensory overload and no instructor hollering instructions as you go (last time I had Duck Waddle - yes, his real name - for an instructor - excitable fellow). I wouldn't say there's no transfer - from game to track, but it's a way stronger transfer of track to game.
Jan. 27, 2010 12:08 p.m. scardeal Reader

P71 wrote: While a zillion electron laps might mean you won't look like a total squid your first time out...

Isn't that just admitting that there is SOME degree of transfer?

I feel like it's a more visceral form of classroom training. When you go to driver training, they have classroom time, right? If that can help, then why can't spending time in a semi-realistic simulation help?

The comments I've heard about iRacing, for instance, tell me that it is a useful tool, particularly in that you can have way more seat time and experiment more freely than you could in real life.

I'm agreeing that there is nothing that will emulate the full reality of strapping into a car and actually autocrossing or lapping a track. However, I still maintain that there is benefit in using this as a training tool.
Jan. 27, 2010 1:07 p.m. Matt B Reader

JoeyM wrote: Live For Speed has a very large parking lot to practice in, and you can place cones, chalk lines, etc. on it. I've used it before to set up a simulated copy of the next weekend's course to give a relative practice so they would not get lost during their runs. Again, course familiarization......

That's pretty cool - I hadn't even heard of that game before. I also didn't know anybody shared the course map a week ahead of time. Anybody know if the Atlanta SCCA has the maps available?
Jan. 27, 2010 6:19 p.m. Ian F Dork

Hmm... I would say one of the biggest novice auto-x mistakes is over-driving the car - learning you have to slow down to go fast. Most of the games I've played also penalize over-driving... so that could possibly help a bit.