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Login to post Forums » Off-topic discussion » Framing Screws

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Oct. 26, 2009 2:09 p.m. ClemSparks UberDork

I'm redoing my house and need to use screws (not nails) for a lot of the work I'm doing. I'm tired of philips (type) headed screws and the way the bit just spins in the head. I seriously get a life of about 5 screws per bit. Maybe I'm just using the wrong bits or wrong drill...more probably, my technique just sucks.

Anyway...I wondered what head and driver style folks with experience here have had good luch with.

I've seen the ones that look like a torx head and the square ones.

What do you say about either of those? Are there any other styles I should look at?

I've got to do lots of temporary bracing as I jack up wals, remove sill plates and joists and such, and put it all back together.

Thanks for any constructive input, Clem
Oct. 26, 2009 2:13 p.m. wearymicrobe Reader

I use the square headed ones for installing CBB for tile. I get about ~350-400 to the head with these through effectively cement/Wood/wood connections. Normally the box comes with a bit for the drill.

With the high grips heads though make sure that you are wearing gloves, the spin of the drill will go into your hand and you will blister like crazy over the long haul.
Oct. 26, 2009 2:14 p.m. tuna55 Reader

square heads are the best, but pricey. Worth it, though. I cheaped out and bought the Lowes special super duper bits and screws. Guaranteed to prevent camout, they say. They lasted a while, but were just modified philips. Every time I'd go "brrrrrrrr" My wife would say (trained) "prevents camount".
Oct. 26, 2009 2:14 p.m. benzbaron Reader

You must use the proper bit in the drill, I think the box might say P or PH or whatever and you need to use the proper PH or PH2 or whatever bit. Go to OSH the kit is 2.99$ or HF if want the collectors set of every possible bit including anti-tamper ones.

I got a shed kit that was all square screws and they work fine, but I know if I ever have to replace a screw I'll end up needing to buy a square bit driver.

Good luck!
Oct. 26, 2009 2:28 p.m. fiat22turbo UltraDork

Dad got tired of it and started using torx headed screws, works great and dropped the number of screwed up screws by quite a lot.
Oct. 26, 2009 3:12 p.m. NYG95GA SuperDork

With the Phillips style, the screws are pretty consistent, but there is a HUGE variance in bit quality. I've used a gazillion of the cheap bits, but I keep going back to the distributor and paying premium to special order the OEM bits that come with Milwaulkee cordess drills. They seem to last forever!
Oct. 26, 2009 3:25 p.m. cwh SuperDork

Yeah, buy the best quality bits you can find. Go to a real industrial supply house and tell them what you want to do. I did hundreds of feet of wood fencing with screws, and the square tip screws and drivers worked best. Just go ahead and spend the money on the good bits.
Oct. 26, 2009 3:32 p.m. bludroptop Dork

cwh wrote:

Yeah, buy the best quality bits you can find. Go to a real industrial supply house and tell them what you want to do. I did hundreds of feet of wood fencing with screws, and the square tip screws and drivers worked best. Just go ahead and spend the money on the good bits.

What he said. Seriously, I used to be the production manager for a huge deck building company. Workers could get a couple of days out of a good bit, and a couple screws out of a cheap one.

Also, for what it is worth (and I'm not an engineer), those screws allegedly have terrible shear strength as compared to nails. Our installers were not allowed to use the screws for framing - they had to use galvanized 12d nails. Then they would screw down the deck boards and railings. Maybe heresy, but I've always been leery of using them for structural application. YMMV.
Oct. 26, 2009 3:45 p.m. NYG95GA SuperDork

You want grip with a nail? Cement coated sinkers FTW!
Oct. 26, 2009 3:55 p.m. ClemSparks UberDork

Sounds Like I'll pick up a bucket of ~2 1/2" square drive ones after work today. Thanks a BUNCH for all the input! I love it.

The reason I want/need to use screws is because a lot of this is temporary and will be coming back off (like, I have to brace across the bottom fo the wall while I replace the bottom plate or it will spread out on me and my house will fall down). Also...when I'm jacking the house by its cieling joists...it tends to pull the joists and/or top plate apart because the nails have no tensile grip. So...I guess I'm looking specifically for tensile grip and reversability.

With the philips...half of them are stripped out (the heads) by the time I get them in...and then I can't remove them right anyway...

I'm often in a position where I can't put enough force on the bit to keep it in the head (camout). I think/hope the square (or torx) are a solution to that problem. I can run philips ones in pretty good if I've got a laboratory quality (ideal) position to drive it...but that's less than 10% of the time. Usually, I'm hanging from a ladder with one hand supporting me off a joist or something and one hand free to pull a screw out of my mouth and hope I can get it all lined up and screwed in .

Clem
Oct. 26, 2009 4:27 p.m. cwh SuperDork

Another plus with the square drive is that the screw will stay on the bit (most of the time) so you are a lot more efficient.
Oct. 26, 2009 6:59 p.m. Toyman01 HalfDork

Square drives work pretty good. If you want to use up the rest of the Phillips heads, go to Lowes and get the Bosch tips. After trying most of the bits made, Bosch tip last longest.
Oct. 26, 2009 7:19 p.m. NYG95GA SuperDork

Around here, I've heard many people refer to the square drive as a "Canadian" screwdriver. I thought that was odd. Anyone else heard them called that?
Oct. 26, 2009 7:27 p.m. wayslow New Reader

The square drive screws were invented in Canada in the early 1900s. They were originally called Robertson head screws, after the inventor. They're the industry standard up here.
Oct. 26, 2009 7:30 p.m. stuart in mn SuperDork

Whatever you do don't use drywall screws. They aren't designed for structural work and are pretty brittle. The hardware stores sell deck screws which are pretty strong.
Oct. 26, 2009 9:54 p.m. mistanfo Dork

Well, you've got your red Robby, your green Robby, yellow and black are less common, and I think that there is a tiny one, but I cannot remember the colour of handle associated with those.
Oct. 26, 2009 9:58 p.m. cwh SuperDork

I had a lot of trouble with the Phillips head screws breaking off the heads. After going to the square heads, no problems.
Oct. 27, 2009 7:13 a.m. ultraclyde Reader

Yep. +1 on square-drive deck screws. You can drive those bastards right through a pine board.
Oct. 27, 2009 8:21 a.m. ClemSparks UberDork

Ok...

So I went and tried to buy "construction screws" last night with a square head. Construction screws look like a "deck screw" without the fancy coating for exterior (and treated wood) exposure. No place in town has these in square drive. I really don't want to pay double the price to get a coating I don't need.

Construction screws are ~$10 for 5 lb. Exterior Deck screws are ~$20 for 5 lb.

I can get them with a torx (or "6 lobe") drive head. So I guess I'll do that for now.

If I find a source of the square drive, I'll use those. And I'll probably try them out for when I'm doing work with the treated stuff (there will be a fair amount of that as I replace sills and joists).

Thanks folks! Clem
Oct. 27, 2009 11:54 p.m. BAMF Reader

The local hardware store sells screws with square heads that also have Philips slots. We use the square side pretty much exclusively at work (custom fab studio).

Another bit of advice I got (but haven't put into practice) was to use an impact driver for screws rather than a drill/driver. A buddy of mine swears by it and said he has never stripped out a screw head with one.
Oct. 28, 2009 1:37 a.m. xci_ed6 Reader

Impact driver is a good tip, it worked well for me. I put the tin up on my dad's pole barn with a 3/8" Mac impact (air powered). I used a 1/4" socket, and bits from Fastenall. I bought like 10 of them, and only used 5 or 6, so they were probably good bits too. They were 3" screws, and I used like 10lbs of them (24x56 barn, tin inside & out)
Oct. 28, 2009 3:31 p.m. abumason New Reader

xci_ed6 wrote:

Impact driver is a good tip, it worked well for me. I put the tin up on my dad's pole barn with a 3/8" Mac impact (air powered). I used a 1/4" socket, and bits from Fastenall. I bought like 10 of them, and only used 5 or 6, so they were probably good bits too. They were 3" screws, and I used like 10lbs of them (24x56 barn, tin inside & out)

+1 on the impact driver. Got a 18v Makita kit for Father's Day, and the drill has only been used once, but the impact driver is my new goto tool.

If a new driver isn't in the budget, it sounds simple, but check out your drill's setup. My old DeWalt had two speeds, and a variable torque chuck. If I had it on high speed it would strip screw heads faster than I could count them, but on low speed with too much torque I'd snap the heads off when working at any kind of angle. It was okay after some fiddling, but now with the impact, I wonder how I ever got anything done beforehand.

-Thor
Oct. 28, 2009 3:55 p.m. andrave HalfDork

I got a set with like 20 different phillips head drivers and I've found they last MUCH MUCH longer when you have the variety to chose one that fully engages the screw head. All phillips are not created equal.. I've used the square ones and they do last forever, though it takes me longer to get the bit centered...
Nov. 16, 2009 12:57 p.m. ClemSparks UberDork

I ended up picking up the torx type construction screws (because they didn't have the unneeded fancy coating) and have thus far driven exactly one screw to full depth. I didn't spin the driver in the screw during this...so I'm pretty much way ahead of where I would have been if it had been a phillips drive .

I think it'll work well.

Thanks! Clem
Nov. 16, 2009 2:16 p.m. tuna55 Reader

Torx are great, too.

I just got back from a fastening, continuing education type class and learned a very interesting thing:

Philips drives were originally invented to act as a torque limiter. That's right, they were made to prevent you from over torquing whatever you're fastening. Go figure.

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