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SyntheticBlinkerFluid
SyntheticBlinkerFluid UltimaDork
11/7/15 11:20 a.m.

So this seems to be becoming a "thing" now. I've been seeing them pop up over the last year or so.

What's everyone's take on this?

I thought at one time that I would do it, then I realized it's just the digital way of asking for a handout.

I feel that if it were for someone who was terminal and friends wanted to get their project done for them before they passed, I would be ok with that.

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 UberDork
11/7/15 11:26 a.m.

Start an orphanage? Sure. Fund research? Sure. Fufill a dying mans dream? Yup. Buy a skyline because you want one and can't afford it? berkeley no.

Knurled
Knurled MegaDork
11/7/15 11:41 a.m.

The difference between it and sponsorships is that sponsors get something remotely tangible for their money.

singleslammer
singleslammer UberDork
11/7/15 11:41 a.m.

I would even fund Bobzilla in a romantic getaway from his inlaws but unless your car project is for charity, I am not funding someone else's fun. I can barely afford my own fun!

Toyman01
Toyman01 MegaDork
11/7/15 12:20 p.m.
Dusterbd13 wrote: Start an orphanage? Sure. Fund research? Sure. Fufill a dying mans dream? Yup. Buy a skyline because you want one and can't afford it? berkeley no.

I could not have said it better.

The0retical
The0retical Dork
11/7/15 12:24 p.m.
Dusterbd13 wrote: Start an orphanage? Sure. Fund research? Sure. Fufill a dying mans dream? Yup. Buy a skyline because you want one and can't afford it? berkeley no.

QFT.

GoFundme projects like that are the reason I hate being lumped in with the Millennial generation. Everything has become so instant with no repercussions that "my" generation doesn't even think twice about doing it.

I don't mind if someone from the board needs help for a move, wants to fund a charity racecar, or is having trouble with their medical bills. Being part of this community I would like to help as much as I can because as I enjoy participating in the knowledge sharing and various Amy related shenanigans. You guys also provide much needed relief and automotive related distractions when I'm trapped/working overseas which I will be eternally grateful for.

Asking for handouts for purely self serving reasons (like the Skyline thread) without a second thought irritates the hell out of me. It indicates that the individual isn't responsible enough, or is too intellectually lazy, to form a budget and stick to it to reach that goal so they're looking for an easy out.

motomoron
motomoron SuperDork
11/7/15 1:29 p.m.

Some clown started a gofundme or kickstarter for going SCCA club racing and was delusional enough...

To post a link on the SCCA racing facebook page.

The beating he got from racers who've come up with their own thousands of thousands of dollars, in the couple hours before he deleted the post, was truly great.

I'm a proud privateer. I get a little help from a great tire shop so I run their stickers (Go Radial Tire Co. of Silver Spring, MD!)but otherwise, I work to pay for it, so I take the wing for a big Area 51 die-cut and the car has nothing else but what SCCA says I have to have.

fritzsch
fritzsch Dork
11/7/15 1:30 p.m.

What is this Skyline thread I've heard about?

Knurled
Knurled MegaDork
11/7/15 1:38 p.m.
fritzsch wrote: What is this Skyline thread I've heard about?

Thread was locked, it may have been deleted. Basically, a guy posted, apparently talking about himself in the third person (or talking about himself as if he were a group/team in the third person, I couldn't tell) and apparently he totaled his Supra and wanted the Internet to buy him an R32.

I think.

Anyway, he posted his in the $2015 Classifieds section. Hilarity ensued.

dropstep
dropstep HalfDork
11/7/15 1:52 p.m.

I've always figured websites like that were for people who needed help. Medical bills, house burned down etc. Too many people use it for greedy self serving crap. I'd love to have more money to spend on my car but I'm not begging people for it because it's not near as important as causes that need it and I couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I did that type of E36 M3

fritzsch
fritzsch Dork
11/7/15 2:03 p.m.

Ah, found the thread. Love it and hate it. Interestingly the NYTimes has an Op-Ed on just this thing

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/08/fashion/gofundme-gone-wild.html

moparman76_69
moparman76_69 UltraDork
11/7/15 2:47 p.m.

If you're doing it ala Danny George, where there are kickbacks for the donations, then I'm ok with it.

Cooper_Tired
Cooper_Tired Reader
11/7/15 3:36 p.m.

I love this place.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who loathes the GoFundMe excesses going on.

I've seen three recent ones for : down payment for an apartment, tuition for medical sales school (help me please so I don't have to sell my 240sx drift car) and help me buy a new car because my old one blew up.

I'm all for helping those with a real need/ sudden tragedy. But it seems like it's mostly morons that want you to pay for them because they don't want to.

patgizz
patgizz PowerDork
11/7/15 5:54 p.m.

if i don't have the means to build it myself, then i don't need to be doing so.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/7/15 6:15 p.m.

We did something similar for our 2011 Targa Newfoundland race. We needed help from the community to get to the race, and so we asked them. It worked beautifully. Not only did we raise enough money to race, but we also had a large group of people who were invested - literally - in the outcome. GoFundMe didn't exist and we avoided Kickstarter as we wanted a couple of tiers for success, but we had the advantage of being a known entity.

We did offer paybacks, though. Shirts, names on the car, even a surprise discount on parts after the race. And we definitely got some push-back from people who didn't get the concept and who thought that a parts store should automatically have hundreds of thousands of dollars to "sponser" random people so they can drive their cars with their friends. But crowdsourcing like this has become a more common alternative since, as it's easier to find 100 people to donate $25 than to find one person who can donate $2500. Heck, Caterham F1 did it last year.

If I did it again, I'd probably sell overpriced t-shirts and make it clear that all proceeds go to the team just to avoid the whole "but you're supposed to sponser me!" conversation. At the same time, I'd also offer the various "name on the car" opportunities as those were quite helpful and gave a chance for clubs to band together.

We get clumsy requests for sponsership all the time. Guys with no plan. Guys who think that driving around their town will automatically sell parts. Guys with big dreams but no history to back them up. All GoFundMe has done is expose these requests to the community at large.

And yes, I know how to spell sponsor, in case you don't get the joke...

ae86andkp61
ae86andkp61 HalfDork
11/7/15 7:45 p.m.

I could be wrong, but I thought those kind of sites were originally for small startups looking for investors. Say I want to invest a few grand, but not in the stock market, so I go online and find someone with a bright and profitable business needing to get off the ground, and in the end we all make money...am I totally wrong here?

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
11/7/15 7:52 p.m.

Facilitates a sector of society that really pisses me off.

Or another way of thinking of it is I made a point to raise my kids not to be one of those people.

Knurled
Knurled MegaDork
11/7/15 8:24 p.m.
ae86andkp61 wrote: I could be wrong, but I thought those kind of sites were originally for small startups looking for investors. Say I want to invest a few grand, but not in the stock market, so I go online and find someone with a bright and profitable business needing to get off the ground, and in the end we all make money...am I totally wrong here?

I thought that was Kickstarter, where you put up some money and in return get something when the project comes to fruition, like a huge discount on the product when it comes out, or stuff like that, depending on the level you donated at.

A racer might better be served by Patreon, now that I think of it.

The0retical
The0retical Dork
11/8/15 5:33 a.m.
Knurled wrote:
ae86andkp61 wrote: I could be wrong, but I thought those kind of sites were originally for small startups looking for investors. Say I want to invest a few grand, but not in the stock market, so I go online and find someone with a bright and profitable business needing to get off the ground, and in the end we all make money...am I totally wrong here?

I thought that was Kickstarter, where you put up some money and in return get something when the project comes to fruition, like a huge discount on the product when it comes out, or stuff like that, depending on the level you donated at.

A racer might better be served by Patreon, now that I think of it.

A couple of things here and it's easier to reply to both of you.

Kickstarter was initially established as a way to fund projects which someone believes there may be a market for but was unable to sell the idea to a larger company and cannot afford to bring the product to market in a traditional manner. The way it initially operated the product designer put up a video of a working prototype of an item or evidence that the project had been planned for, people viewed it and decided if they wanted to take a chance on it in return for the item or fund the project (Robocop statue anyone?). Overtime Kickstarter relaxed the rules a bit more so the prototype was no longer required. This lead to even more problems, as some designers with big dreams don't actually grasp the fact that even small scale production can be very difficult to manage, with rewards being distributed on time and Kickstarter changed their standards from presale to "funding an idea you believe in."

You're not actually buying stock in the companies or considered an investor because of investment and trading rules set by the SEC, which pissed off a lot of Oculus Rift customers, and you are no longer guaranteed a reward for the backing of a project as that would involve some legal problems for Kickstarter.

In the time between Kickstarter changing the rules sites like GoFundMe popped up for things that weren't eligible to fund on Kickstarter, like medical bills, and Indiegogo which never carried the prototype or presale requirements of Kickstarter.

Personally I've been really turned off to Kickstarter after several very high profile incidents leading to either the project failing outright or delays after delays and the final product ending up being some half cobbled together piece of E36 M3.

Mind you there's no refunds, no exchanges, no guarantee of a delivery date, and no warranty expressed on the items. Oh and you put up the money once the product hits enough pledges despite the possibility of not seeing the product for years with no recourse. I'm confused why media at large goes so nuts over these projects.

I've done 5 Kickstarter projects. None have been delivered on time.

+1 delivered the product as promised with no quality issues. (Finex) I actually have bought more products from their now established online store and recommend them to people because I am impressed with the products.
+1 I thought failed was delivered and then ultimately did fail after being sued into oblivion. (Blackprints)
+1 delivered the product eventually but did not fulfill the project scope. (Ouya)
+1 was delivered 2 years late and the product is half baked. (Lono)
+1 has not yet been delivered after already being a year late and looks like it is going to still be another 6 to 8 months. (Torment: Tides of Numenera) They at least have a decent project manager who provides regular updates and seem to have a good grasp on what it takes to develop high quality software so I'm not as bent there either.

So a 20% success rate and possibly 40% with $507 invested. Probably better than average for startups but not good enough to continue receiving my money. I'm fine with waiting to ensure the product comes to market and paying 10% to 15% more rather than losing the entire sum of money.

edit: damn that ended up being a long post.

Kia_Racer
Kia_Racer Dork
11/8/15 6:03 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

Wasn't there a LeMans team that did the "your name on the car in a specific place" depending on how much you donated? I think they were a black and white checkerboard.

I actually thought it was a cool concept back then.

Scottah
Scottah Dork
11/8/15 7:30 a.m.

I'd rather think of other creative ways to fund my car addictions. I part cars to EARN what I have.

grafmiata
grafmiata SuperDork
11/8/15 2:04 p.m.

While the way the "Skyline" thread was presented annoyed the Hell out of me, I've actually contributed to "crowd-fund" types a couple of times. The first was to help get Keith to the Targa, and I was more than happy to contribute.

The second time I've done it is still in limbo, waiting to see if the funding-amount is met. This one is for an auto-crosser from Wisconsin, who had planned to move to club racing in h-prod in 2017. She moved her plans up a year because the Runoffs are at Mid-Ohio in '16, and I found out that she was originally from my area, and was good friends of my niece in high school. Yeah, I will throw a few bucks to get her to Mid-Ohio.

I also remember many years ago, when a guy took little classified ads out in all of the auto mags, basically asking people to send him a dollar, so he could buy his "dream" car, which was an a/c 911. I think he actually met his goal.

To make a short story long, I have no problem tossing a few bucks to help someone realize a dream, but it all depends on how you present that dream.

If you want to accelerate your club-racing because the Runoffs are at your home track? Yep, I will help.

Do you want me to buy you a better car than the one that you just crashed??? Yeah, not so much.

Jay
Jay UltraDork
11/8/15 3:03 p.m.

To be honest, I've donated to a project just because the build thread was entertaining me enough that I wanted to see it through (the donation was some bits of extra hardware, not cold cash, but still...) Also, not car related, but I just "pre-ordered" (i.e. helped fund) a video game that I have no idea if will ever be finished, just because I like some of the people working on it & would love to play the end product if it does come around.

I don't generally live paycheque-to-paycheque so I usually have a bit of extra money to toss at stuff I like. Ten or twenty bucks once in a while doesn't really cramp my lifestyle.

I also don't think people who do live paycheque-to-paycheque should be forced to 'knuckle down' and live a miserable life with no chance of ever seeing their dreams or ideas through.

So yeah, if you come off as an entitled ass when asking for money, chances are you're not going to get any, but I have no problem in general with people seeking a bit help to finish a cool thing. The beauty of crowd-funding a project is if you don't like it, you don't have to contribute.

Driven5
Driven5 Dork
11/8/15 6:18 p.m.
Jay wrote: I also don't think people who *do* live paycheque-to-paycheque should be forced to 'knuckle down' and live a miserable life with no chance of ever seeing their dreams or ideas through.

Helping somebody see their dreams and ideas through of making the world a better place, or for getting out of living paycheck to paycheck, is one thing. Better yet is helping somebody, who is using those dreams and ideas as motivation, to get the education and/or experience necessary to accomplish it for themselves. Even just helping out somebody who has proven themselves to be an integral (contributing) member of a community.

But 'helping' somebody, who has more important needs to be putting their money towards, to indulge in their so-called "dreams" of instant gratification...Isn't actually helping them at all.

The0retical
The0retical Dork
11/8/15 6:23 p.m.

In reply to Jay:

I don't mind the concept of crowd funding, but I try to see it for what it is; generally a decent idea that has a myriad of ways of going wrong as it tries to come to market. Generally there is a topical risk analysis associated with the project but I'd be surprised if there was even a rudimentary risk register and mitigation plan associated with most of them. I've seen, read about, and studied so many of them going sideways that I'm always a little stunned when any reputable tech site pays attention to them anymore.

The "knuckle down" portion of one of my rants is due in part to a few factors. The biggest of these is my own situation where I took jobs I didn't necessarily want to until I got myself into a position where I had the ability and benefit to go back to school to start studying something to get me into a better position. For reference that was working in a warehouse stocking shelves and traveling from FBO to FBO to do temporary A&P work for a week at a time after I got my bachelors and certificate, working for a commercial airline pulling interiors and doing heavy C check work, then moving to a job as a military contractor. I also did helpdesk work all the way through college.

Now I get to work 84 hours a week in a warzone, go to school, and spend months away from my family so we can get ahead. Know why I do that? I do it because it pays well for the blue collar work that I can do. I could blow a ton of money on the CYM R1 FD I've always wanted or I could setup a 401k and start a 529 for my daughter while saving slowly for the car. Guess which I chose?

I've worked a lot of crappy jobs, took on a lot of debt to get a certification in a trade, lived off a single 4 lbs pot roast for a week because I was broke, and leveraged it to get to where I am by planning ahead. I'm not a great American success story and I'm not trying to make myself sound like one but I've always had a plan on where I want to go next and how to accomplish that. I expect at least some effort to be shown from other people if they want any money from me.

I'm also not saying that I wouldn't ever consider it. If Javelin asked today to do one of those campaigns to rebuild the Javelin I'd toss kick in some money in exchange for a build thread because he's a visible part of this community and despite some difference of opinions here and there I think he's a generally good guy. In general though I don't have much sympathy for people who just show up and ask for handouts from communities because they did something stupid and figure its worth a shot to trade up.

I'm getting long winded again so I'll end it here poor grammar, loose ends, and other random nitpicks included.

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