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  Aug. 22, 2009 11:11 p.m. joey48442 SuperDork

  I don't aplaud someone for exersizing there legal right to carry a firearm like that to a function like that. I love guns. I do. I can touch one from where I sit right know and see three others. People have the freedom of speach as well but there are some things that I wont applaud someone for saying even though it's there right to say them. (Im thinking of the funeral protestors) Open carry Is an interesting concept. But all it proves is that you have a very small penis. It simply makes someone look very insecure and scared. It's like the whole "armed society is a polite society " bit. I think that's crap. That makes people be nice to you because they are afraid of you. I want people to be nice to me because they respect me, not fear me.

  But, this thread has gotten more political (I'm guilty as well!) than Margie wanted it to. I think the reason people are such jerks, is that the far left and far right are the vocal ones. The far out ones seem to be getting futher out, and more vocal. They are the ones you hear about. 90 percent of us are much more in the middle, and quite amused by the loud ones. I also think the Internet has made many idiots feel well Informed when they are just repeating the same crap someone else is repeating from yet someone else. (Miata.net anyone...?)

  Joey

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  Aug. 22, 2009 11:49 p.m. egnorant Dork

  Hate is not the proper word. I am one of those that you may look at and call a hater, but I am anything but!!

  I got a bit involved on a local level with just a bit of civic curiosity over an ordinance (junk car) that I felt concerned my situation.

  It was good until our great mayor of 38 years finally left and a new guy became mayor. Suddenly, the workings became secret with a "trust me " attitude being the first and only info available.

  Things got VERY nasty as obscure or nonexistant rules were put into play that removed any right to discover or question the policies of our tiny town government.

  Before our citizens could stop the bleeding our town went from a financially stable entity with a years operating expenses in the bank to 6 million dollars in debt.

  Now I see this happening at a national level! I was invited to become informed and involved by our new President. I accepted this invitation.

  Gathering correct info has been a challenge as there is a hurry up pressure combined with impressively confusing wording of the policies!!

  As for getting involved.......haven't had the opportunity for anything local. I was called a "wicked old redneck" because I suggested that I needed to learn more about the healthcare bill before I could say yea or nay!

  I look at the current flock of polititians the same way as I would look at my daughter after she promised not to be late....for the 7th time.....I hear the words coming out of your mouth, I just don't believe them. Her calling me a hater is one of the more pleasant terms she uses.

  Bruce

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  Aug. 23, 2009 12:28 a.m. Wowak Dork

  I see all this potential, and I see it squandered. An entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables, slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy stuff we don’t need. We’re the middle children of history, man; no purpose or place. We have no Great War, no Great Depression. Our Great War is a spiritual war. Our Great Depression is our lives. We’ve all been raised by television to believe that one day we’d all be millionaires and movie gods and rock stars. But we won’t; and we’re slowly learning that fact. And we’re very, very pissed off.

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  Aug. 23, 2009 1:33 a.m. gunner New Reader

  some very pithy thoughts in here. I try to only belong to the few boards where I can find intelligent discussion. Like this one.

  as much as I hate to keep this political, it is. We are getting played by the politicians. right v left. last I checked we are all Americans. Weren't WE supposed to be the govt at some point? It's hard to do that when the legislative branch is creating laws to take power from us every chance they get, and have been for over 100 years.

  Ya know, we are just too stupid to govern ourselves, or even to choose what candidates run for office.

  It's too bad we CAN'T just be like the movies and "Be excellent to each other". opinions are like shiny happy people but most people don't want to hear either one of yours.

  Still, what I'm seeing is a movement back to spending time with family and friends and moving away from the net for finding people to talk to.

  I'm sorry, It's late and my mind is starting to wander, I hope that didn't actually start at the beginning of my post ;)

  laterz

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  Aug. 23, 2009 7:35 a.m. 4cylndrfury Dork

  Toyman got a lot right... here is a recap:

  • We live in a me society. No one is concerned with anything other than themselves.

  • In todays society, there isn't any correction applied for boorish behavior.

  • There are a lot of children that have no idea what proper behavior is. They've acted like excrament all their lives and no one has shown them how to be civil despite disagreeing. What you are seeing in the media is adults throwing temper tantrums because their parents never taught them that it isn't acceptable behavior.

  • The bad part is it is going to get worse. Until something happens to show people what is really important in life and what is acceptable, they will never change, and their kids will be worse than they were.

  • Being civil in a disagreement is a skill that isn't taught anymore.

  I find myself often FURIOUS at other people for stupid things. Someone misbehaves in traffic: I get redfaced, someones kid is acting up at the supermarket: Im ready to spout profanities, the bank makes a mistake on my account: Im ready to get hamfisted on the clerks jaw...I see it in myself, and I consider myself relatively benign in the scale of things.Im a suburban 20 something married guy from a working class family who had both parents at home, without drugs or abuse, who went to college, married a good girl with a similar background, who has a good job, who lives without any real vice and can play video games and park his car in his own home with electricity on and running water...and I still want to pull retarded soccer moms from their overpriced excursions and punch them in their starbucks stained teeth for cutting me off cuz theyre on their blackberry and not realizing their lane ended 80 yards back

  I see it CLEARLY in myself, I cant imagine what goes on in the minds of poor twisted souls whos dad was gone and whose mom traded "favors" for crack, who did poorly in school and never got a diploma, so they work for minumum wage and have had the message that "youre crap" drilled into their head.

  I guess we need to fund schools better than we fund the new ZOMGmegastadium, teachers need to be paid better than Michael Vicks lame @$$, welfare needs to be reformed to stop paying crack moms to stay at home and churn out paychecks from their who-haws, and politicians need to be reminded that they are there to serve their constituents, not their pocketbooks.

  /rant

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  Aug. 23, 2009 8:44 a.m. triumph7 New Reader

  I'll throw another aspect to this. We have touched on the media but from a conservative's standpoint, the (news)media has become particularly biased to the left. Evidence, a group of between 5000 and 8000 gathered in Columbus recently being addressed by Judge Napolitano (?), the local media claimed 2-300. Back in March, I was at a "tea party" in Cincinnati with a very well behave crowd of about 5000. One local TV station reported about how THEY THEMSELVES were subjected to violence when they walked straight in and started interviewing the only Obama supporter (a plant?) in the middle of 5000 people. I was there, there was no violence, no yelling, no threats. I talked to one of the police afterwards and he was impressed at how well behaved the crowd was.

  Another problem (no offense gamers) are the ultra-violent video games that kids are given... violence with no consequences. Hours and hours staring at murder and death until you hit the reset button. More than a few are now sitting in prison because life has no reset.

  The parenting methods also embrace the "life with no consequences" theory. In the old days, you misbehaved and you got spanked. A few years ago I watched some young children at the Air Force Museum in Dayton. They were running all over going past the barriers and wiping their hands all over the displays with only a voice from 50 feet back softly going "don't do that". If I ever tried that, my life would have had a couple years shaved off, The other day a guy that works for me was telling how his kids sneak off and buy these energy drinks after being told not to and ended being up until 4 AM. Consequences? Only that HE was late for work the next day. I think I asked him who the boss was in the house...

  The lack of respect that many people have for one another and their property is the root of much of our problems. Politicians don't respect (or REPRESENT) their constituency, Children don't respect their parents. Really, nobody respects anybody.

  4cylndrfury hit some valid points, essentially the government rewards people for making bad decisions. Do bad in school, use drugs, have ilegit children, be lazy, we'll reward you. It has now escalated to "so GM, you wanted to build crappy cars that nobody wants to buy? Here's a few billion to see you through". Sorry GM lovers but they should have gone out of business, sad but true. Worst part, we have been cheated from the phoenix that WOULD have risen from GM's (and Chrysler's) ashes. No consequences.

  So maybe "hate" is the wrong word, I'm not sure I know what the right word is, maybe frusration. Maybe something else.

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  Aug. 23, 2009 8:53 a.m. Tifosi2k2 New Reader

  Wowak wrote: I see all this potential, and I see it squandered. An entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables, slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy stuff we don’t need. We’re the middle children of history, man; no purpose or place. We have no Great War, no Great Depression. Our Great War is a spiritual war. Our Great Depression is our lives. We’ve all been raised by television to believe that one day we’d all be millionaires and movie gods and rock stars. But we won’t; and we’re slowly learning that fact. And we’re very, very pissed off.

  Fight Club?

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  Aug. 23, 2009 9:02 a.m. Tifosi2k2 New Reader

  triumph7 wrote:

  I'll throw another aspect to this. We have touched on the media but from a conservative's standpoint, the (news)media has become particularly biased to the left. Evidence, a group of between 5000 and 8000 gathered in Columbus recently being addressed by Judge Napolitano (?), the local media claimed 2-300. Back in March, I was at a "tea party" in Cincinnati with a very well behave crowd of about 5000. One local TV station reported about how THEY THEMSELVES were subjected to violence when they walked straight in and started interviewing the only Obama supporter (a plant?) in the middle of 5000 people. I was there, there was no violence, no yelling, no threats. I talked to one of the police afterwards and he was impressed at how well behaved the crowd was..........

  I had a friend attend that very tea party, he got to shake the Judges hand, he was pretty excited.

  He claimed 8-10 thousand people there, as did the c-bus police, yet the media reported a few hundred.
  

  I think our biggest problem right now is a dishonest media. Sure, if you want to spin things left or right, that's almost expected. But there have been several instances lately where local and national media has flat out LIED..... I don't understand it, whats the motivation?

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  Aug. 23, 2009 9:19 a.m. bigwrench Reader

  I do not care which side of the DEBATE (ARGUMENT) anyone is on. When you use half truths, sound bits, and what ever to show your point is right you lose the point of debate. This country was formed as a experiment in rule by the people. As two political parties fight for power to get their vision of what this country should be, people still in this country do not have things that should be a basic level of life. I personally do not have health care and unless my business gets going it will be another 9 years before I can afford to see a doctor for more than a emergency. In this system as it stands we fight who has the right way as the true way is a mix of the two sides. But they play for a all win instead of the good of the people. Could we try to get back to the public debate we were formed on to create a greater union and not the our side win or lose that leaves a wake of people in our country hurting as the yelling continues to try to drown out their yells for help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  Aug. 23, 2009 9:21 a.m. triumph7 New Reader

  Tifosi2k2 wrote:

  I think our biggest problem right now is a dishonest media. Sure, if you want to spin things left or right, that's almost expected. But there have been several instances lately where local and national media has flat out LIED..... I don't understand it, whats the motivation?

  The motivation for most media has been to promote their liberal agenda. Some could say the current recession was caused by the media talking down the economy. How? "The sky is falling", "the widget market is going bust, thousands of widget makers out of work". If you get bad news long enough (true or not) you start to believe it. And if it can happen to widget makers it can happen to you. You start thinking your job is in trouble so you cut back on spending. The cycle starts. (Yes, this is oversimplified to make a point!) Why? If you want to change an administration just have a bad economy while pointing a finger at the old administration. Truth has little to do with it..

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  Aug. 23, 2009 9:27 a.m. suprf1y Reader

  We live in a me society. No one is concerned with anything other than themselves.

  I think our biggest problem right now is a dishonest media.

  I think these are 2 significant factors. From the outside looking in, it looks to me like nobody cares about anything but themselves. Look at the healthcare thread. The news media, IMO, is so totally out of control, it now does more harm than good.

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  Aug. 23, 2009 9:30 a.m. Jensenman MegaDork

  Yeah, politicians and political parties try to inflame the proletariat against the other guys 'by any means necessary'. (Remember that phrase from Malcolm X? It was cool a few years ago for kids to walk around with that emblazoned on T shirts in huge letters. That made a lot of people REAL uncomfortable.) They fan the flames of frustration with sound bites, mis- and partial quotes and just plain distortions trying to turn it into hatred because it benefits their party to do so. (Remember Willie Horton? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Horton That whole thing was orchestrated by Lee Atwater, a native South Carolina boy, I'm sad to say. Just before he died, Atwater apologized for the whole thing. But wait; Al Gore was involved in attacking the furlough program as well! ) All of them are guilty of this; there are no innocents, I don't care what party it is, Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, you name it. So we get these town hall meetings with people rippin' and snortin' and, as Toyman noted, generally being boorish. We reap what we sow.

  Then there is the whole sports cheating issue, as in: it's only wrong if you get caught. NASCAR with jet fuel in the intakes, steroids in baseball and football, 'heshes' in the Olympics, knee smashing in professional skating, I could go on for a while. It's 'by any means necessary' again. This spills over into other areas, I had a co worker who was famous for skating along the edge of right vs. wrong, I have to admit the boy covers his tracks well. He was quite open about it as long as there was no written evidence, he thought it was funny. One day, he's going to put a foot wrong and then he's going to be in some real trouble.

  Then you throw in TV ads and programs which poke at you saying 'your car's not fancy enough (like those damn Lexus ads), your house isn't big enough, your vacation was lame, your kids don't dress well enough, your watch is cheap,' yada yada yada incessantly.

  So it's no wonder that after all the different messages pulling everyone in different directions people feel intense frustration and anger which manifests itself as hatred.

  
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  Aug. 23, 2009 10:05 a.m. HiTempguy Reader

  see it CLEARLY in myself, I cant imagine what goes on in the minds of poor twisted souls whos dad was gone and whose mom traded "favors" for crack, who did poorly in school and never got a diploma, so they work for minumum wage and have had the message that "youre crap" drilled into their head.

  I don't like it of how you give people excuses for their bad behaviour. Nobody has an excuse for bad behaviour, the only one causing it is themselves. Am I perfect? Nope. But I give every human being the chance (one chance, not millions, and they have to live with the consequences of their attitudes and actions) to be treated with respect and dignity BEFORE I tear into them or dislike them.

  Respect is gone, personal responsibility was killed off long ago, and we have a media that goes after the "Biggest" ratings even if the news is a lie. Even a magazine I love (Macleans) can sometimes have the most biased articles ever.

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  Aug. 23, 2009 10:22 a.m. aircooled SuperDork

  triumph7 wrote:

  The motivation for most media has been to promote their liberal agenda....

  Hmmm, never heard Fox called liberal before! I really don't think media is motivated at its core by a political agenda, it really does not make sense. If you take a theoretical example of a media outlet the espouses a view that almost no one thinks is valid, do you think they would continue? Not likely, they would not have any advertisers (money).

  Media outlets (in my opinion) are whores of ratings, if they think a particular slant will get them more ratings, then there you go, thus you get examples of the extremes in the media since that seems to be in fashion.

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  Aug. 23, 2009 10:57 a.m. Karl La Follette Reader

  Money is like a weapon now , people got some to spend and they think they can walk on anyone . I have to say i have gave up hating alot of crap people and the things they do I just ignore them , sorta zen it out ................. but car dealers and car salespeople I still have serious disdain for . ohmmmmm

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  Aug. 23, 2009 11:06 a.m. triumph7 New Reader

  aircooled wrote:

  triumph7 wrote:

  The motivation for most media has been to promote their liberal agenda....

  Hmmm, never heard Fox called liberal before! I really don't think media is motivated at its core by a political agenda, it really does not make sense. If you take a theoretical example of a media outlet the espouses a view that almost no one thinks is valid, do you think they would continue? Not likely, they would not have any advertisers (money).

  Media outlets (in my opinion) are whores of ratings, if they think a particular slant will get them more ratings, then there you go, thus you get examples of the extremes in the media since that seems to be in fashion.

  That's why I said MOST media, I was not including Fox. The problem has been that "news" subsidiaries of the media have been given such a "hands off" status because unpopular news was not supposed to affect or be affected by sponsors. And sponsors stay on board because they need to have their product seen. The curious aspect of media that makes me think the media (other than Fox) takes it talking points from the DNC is what I've called the "gravitas" effect. When W picked Cheney as VP, the word gravitas was suddenly everywhere and I've heard similar examples since where "news" broadcast from 15 or 20 sources have the same story almost verbatum. If all the news is the same then where is an advertiser to go? Also a lot of these ads are placed by agencies so there is an additional break between the sponsor and the media.

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  Aug. 23, 2009 11:12 a.m. triumph7 New Reader

  Karl La Follette wrote:

  Money is like a weapon now , people got some to spend and they think they can walk on anyone . I have to say i have gave up hating alot of crap people and the things they do I just ignore them , sorta zen it out ................. but car dealers and car salespeople I still have serious disdain for . ohmmmmm

  DIng! We have another winner. The airport I was working at had an FBO manager like that. It was all about him. (One day he was talking about an accident his mom had with his car... it wasn't "but she's OK", it was "My mom wrecked my $50,000 Jaguar". I almost told him he paid too much for his Taurus.) I found the best way to really piss off people like that is to, simply, not be impressed. Bugs them to death.

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  Aug. 23, 2009 11:15 a.m. Appleseed HalfDork

  My old man and I were talking about this the other day. Hate is an incredibly strong word. I hate a lot of things: weakness, pettiness, ect... But a person? I'm not sure I truly hate anyone. Even George Bush (sorry for the political example). I hated most of his policies, but I'd like to think that if I some how could sit down with the man, and all the things precursor to that moment dissolved away, he'd probably be a fun guy to hang out with. Hate is a serious concept that has been diluted.

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  Aug. 23, 2009 11:30 a.m. Datsun1500 Dork

  I think a lot of it has to do with the lack of personal responsibility, I was taught that I was responsible for my actions, and I taught my children the same thing. Even if you do the wrong thing, as we all do sometimes, take responsibility for it. The "not my fault" mentality is what is killing us...

  I am one of 6 kids, 5 of us are OK, 1 is a bum. He likes being a bum, and is OK with it, who am I to criticize? My Mother always makes excuses for him, it was his childhood, his upbringing..... Never mind the fact we were all brought up the same and there is only a 5 year spread between the oldest and youngest...

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  Aug. 23, 2009 11:46 a.m. EastCoastMojo Dork

  Being nice doesn't get you on TV nearly as often as bad behavoir does.

  We as the people of the Earth need to have a common enemy or else we will turn on each other. I am pretty certain that in order for us all to get along we will need to be attacked by robots from outer space.
  

  I for one, welcome our new robot overloards.

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  Aug. 23, 2009 11:58 a.m. Lesley SuperDork

  Karl La Follette wrote:

  I have to say i have gave up hating alot of crap people and the things they do I just ignore them , sorta zen it out ................. but car dealers and car salespeople I still have serious disdain for . ohmmmmm

  LOL, hard to hate anyone while you're meditating or doing yoga, ain't it?

  I believe that most hate has its roots in fear. People fear what they don't understand, or think is a threat, and hate becomes the defense mechanism.

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  Aug. 23, 2009 12:18 p.m. Appleseed HalfDork

  Actually Mojo, TV is a good reflection of ourselves.

  Have you seen most of the shows on MTV and VH1? Since when do reward people for being a bigger douche than the other. Humiliation at someone else's expense has become the common denominator.

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  Aug. 23, 2009 12:55 p.m. mad_machine UberDork

  are we any worse really than we were before? We always had people who hated, people we loved to hate, and things that were worth hating. This started way back with homo saphians had their first cognitive thought and I doubt short of everyone on earth getting a prefrontal labotomy it is going to change. What has changed is how our culture deals with it.

  hate is no longer something to kept to yourself and close (and like minded) friends, but is something you can blog, twit, and facebook about. It is not that there is more hate in the world, it is just that there are more ways to express it now

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  Aug. 23, 2009 1:43 p.m. Marjorie Suddard General Manager

  Well, reading this thread makes me feel better. I see intelligent people who genuinely disagree on things that concern them a lot--yet they're thoughtfully discussing it, working to see things from the other viewpoints to better understand them, concentrating on maintaining perspective in a world that seems bent on twisting it... in short, reminding me that we have a very civilized community right here, even though anyone'll tell you people don't have to be nice on the internet and rarely are. Thank you. Which doesn't begin to cover it.

  Margie

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  Aug. 23, 2009 2:22 p.m. 4cylndrfury Dork

  Marjorie Suddard wrote:

  Well, reading this thread makes me feel better....Thank you.

  Margie

  we're all being nice hoping for some of that meatloaf and biscuits you were talking about

  Now let us thank you and Tim for starting this outrageously fun and thoroughly fulfilling, hopelessly out of control joyride that is GRM and its even funner hopelessly-er outer of control board...without it I most certainly would be off the deep end. Ive never had as much fun online. Deeply and sincerely, thanks

  you all are the best bunch of buttheads Ive ever had the pleasure of disagreeing with

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