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Rufledt
Rufledt UltraDork
12/5/16 2:24 p.m.

I ran into the same problem, the Castable stuff from most places isn't up to the task for copper. Since copper melts near 2k degrees, the fire must be much hotter to get it heated up in a reasonable amount of time (I guess you want to minimize time with metal in liquid form). The stuff you want is like this: http://www.hightemptools.com/castablerefractory.html

It's a little more expensive, but even the cheap stuff will be better than the crap from the store or Amazon.

I did remake my foundry with some Castable refractory cement from menards as a short term solution until I build a better one, so I'll give that a test at some point. It's probably fine for aluminum.

92dxman
92dxman SuperDork
12/5/16 2:36 p.m.

There is some pretty impressive foundry going on in this thread

Burrito
Burrito Dork
12/5/16 2:40 p.m.
RevRico wrote: So I'm on Amazon building up my xmas shopping, and took a look at refractory cement. This isn't what I thought it would be. Everything comes like drywall mud in buckets, and seems to cap at 2200F except for the "indoor use only" stuff. Isn't there some sort of dry mix stuff to use as an upgrade to the playsand/plaster? Or would these cements work for that sort of backyard foundry? Not really looking to melt much more than cans and copper or brass in those sorts of sizes so the bucket looks perfect for my uses. I'm also looking at the clay graphite crucibles. They're much much cheaper than expected, but sizes are a bit of a mystery to me.

McMaster, as per usually, is helpful when it comes to crucible sizes.

McMaster-Carr Crucibles

Rufledt
Rufledt UltraDork
12/5/16 2:42 p.m.

In reply to Dr. Hess:

Unfortunately (or fortunately I guess) for me my garden is all deep dark black soil as far as I can dig. I assume that's why there are so many farms here. I'm probably going to order some good refractory material instead of mixing it up.

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury MegaDork
12/7/16 11:13 a.m.

Sorry, I have been away from this thread for a bit.

My typical advice for a castable dry mix source is to contact a local boiler installation and repair company. Most cities will have at least one, just look at the yellow pages/google. Boilers are used in many industrial or large office and apartment buildings for heat and other purposes, but the important part for us is that the fireboxes that generate their heat are typically lined with the same types of refractories that foundries use.

I was very lucky early in my adventures, to find a local boiler company that was tired of paying EPA disposal fees for their remnants. Ya know how if you're re-tiling your bathroom, or putting a new roof on, the common rule of thumb is to buy 10% more than what you think you'll need, to account for waste? Bidding on boioler relining and repair projects follow similar standards. If they have 2.5 bags of refractory left over, they can put the 2 back on the shelf, but the half bag will have a finite shelf life once exposed to the moisture in the air. Disposing of it can be pricey in many counties, due to EPA involvement because of the fine silica dust, as well as other components in the mix.

They literally handed me 2 half bags, for free, just because I asked nice. And, they told me to come by every few months and theyd hand me whatever else they had laying around.

They may also be willing to sell it to you, by the bag. A typical rate is approx. $1/lb. Most castable refractories will be fine at copper temps, and many up to iron and steel (steel is tricky to cast though – it's super reactive to oxygen, and can be very temperamental depending on other environmental factors that are difficult to control in a hobby setting).

Regardless of what you use, copper melting is typically tough on equipment – the fluxes used, and the effect of copper slag as a fluxing agent itself, take their toll. Aluminum furnaces, if built well, can last indefinitely. Copper foundry furnaces, like many tools, have a finite service life. Depending on usage rates, small copper foundry furnaces can almost be viewed as a consumable.

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury MegaDork
12/7/16 11:15 a.m.
Burrito wrote:
RevRico wrote: So I'm on Amazon building up my xmas shopping, and took a look at refractory cement. This isn't what I thought it would be. Everything comes like drywall mud in buckets, and seems to cap at 2200F except for the "indoor use only" stuff. Isn't there some sort of dry mix stuff to use as an upgrade to the playsand/plaster? Or would these cements work for that sort of backyard foundry? Not really looking to melt much more than cans and copper or brass in those sorts of sizes so the bucket looks perfect for my uses. I'm also looking at the clay graphite crucibles. They're much much cheaper than expected, but sizes are a bit of a mystery to me.
McMaster, as per usually, is helpful when it comes to crucible sizes. McMaster-Carr Crucibles

Im a big fan of Legend Mining http://www.lmine.com/crucibles-c-1_2/. Their prices are pretty ok as well.

Also, in general, Thomas Net: http://www.thomasnet.com/ is a good place to search for all kinds of suppliers by city. Thats how i found out about the boiler tip, the warehouse for a regional boiler company was listed as a supplier for several name brands of refractory...

Rufledt
Rufledt UltraDork
12/7/16 12:50 p.m.

In reply to 4cylndrfury:

Thanks for the tips! The graphite clay crucible I got is looking more and more sketchy every time I fire up and melt copper. A bit vitrified, too, but not as bad as many I've seen. My aluminum crucible (fire extinguisher bottom) still looks good, though.

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury MegaDork
12/7/16 1:44 p.m.

re: clay graphite - heat it up slowly in the overn to 300 or so, to drive off any moisture that was absorbed from the ambient air between uses - keeps clay graphite service-worthy longer

keethrax
keethrax Dork
12/7/16 2:56 p.m.
Rufledt wrote: I signed up for alloy avenue, did more reading on the forum, and wow am I impressed. Some of those guys are incredible! I got thinking about fuel, has anyone messed around with accelerants to get more heat? Long story time: I used to be a graduate student studying archaeology in North America. One of my fellow grad students was studying native made copper. In Central America, there were some bells *cast* in copper. Not many, but enough to spread around a bit. As part of an experimental archaeology project (just to see if it was possible to melt copper in an open wood fire), he and some other students used something, bone I think, prepared in a specific way added to a fire to increase the temperature. I don't know if they reached copper melting levels in that experiment. They did have some heat sensing equipment, but the fire got hot enough to melt the e36m3 out of the thermocouple and the meter it was plugged into so they were not able to get a clear reading. The geology department (who owned this stuff they were borrowing) got SUPER pissed, but aparently it wasn't the first time an archaeology student melted their equipment. I'm thinking I might be able to crank up the heat on these briquettes if I send him a Facebook message and ask for details. Good idea? Bad idea?

As an undergrad, I was part of a team building a series of iron smelting furnaces. The goal was to demonstrate that the (quicker and easier to build) clay lined brick furnaces provided results consistent with the all clay furnaces o the early iron age. The reason being, that if they provided the same results, experiments could be run more economically using the ones with brick internal structures.

Ended up building half a dozen different smelters and feeding them a crapload of charcoal for a year. It was fun. IT turns out a few tons of lump charcoal is a pretty big pile. Got me an offer to do graduate work doing some computer modelling of archaeological quesions, but I just couldn't make it work out.

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess MegaDork
12/7/16 3:14 p.m.

For bigger smelter plans, look at the first Foxfire book. There's a section in there on how to make a gun. It starts out with "find some red dirt..."

Rufledt
Rufledt UltraDork
12/9/16 11:59 p.m.
4cylndrfury wrote: re: clay graphite - heat it up slowly in the overn to 300 or so, to drive off any moisture that was absorbed from the ambient air between uses - keeps clay graphite service-worthy longer

I hadn't thought of that. would you recommend the same for foundries themselves? I just lined my now destroyed foundry with some cheap refractory cement as a stopgap until i do the gingery foundry build, but it doens't seem to be drying out as quickly as i hoped. The bucket it came in said allow 48 hours, but i'm thinking it needs more like a week with how not-dry it seems. I might have to heat it up a bit to a low heat to dry it out faster. i don't know.

Anyway, I made a video of me fixing the thing:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/VSsPHwWB_pI

I used a bigger pot to make the opening inside larger. I'm hoping that will allow me to get more fuel in there since my crucible is too large. I'm somewhat worried the thinner walls won't allow for as much insulation type action to happen, but this is actual castable refractory cement (cheap stuff though) instead of plaster and play sand, so maybe it will work better? I'll find out at some point.

Also not sure i mixed the cement well enough...

I'm hoping i'll gather up some aluminum and i'll be able to start casting actual things eventually. I got some wood today to make flasks, but i may not get the thing fired up this weekend. if it doens't happen this weekend, it doesn't happen this year. Tuesday i'm going in for carpal tunnel surgery, so that'll shut down messing with stuff in my garage fora couple weeks, then a couple weeks later the same thing happens with the other hand. Winter will be a dark time indeed... Lots of reading i think.

RevRico
RevRico GRM+ Memberand Dork
12/10/16 6:12 a.m.

Well, I've got my buckets, U thingies, and a couple 5lb fire extinguishers, but I think I'm going to hold off putting things together until your follow up video to see how that castable refractory cement works out. The Kast O Lite doesn't seem terribly expensive if I could get away with the 20lb bag, but I'd rather make some cheaper practice ones before risking a more expensive mistake.

I might try putting one of the extinguisher crucibles inside my charcoal chimney just as an experiment. I know when it's full of coals the steel body itself gets hot enough to be malleable, so I'm thinking it could melt cans if there's enough room between the crucible and the wall for coals.

The fun part has already begun, trying to scavenge scrap aluminum from anywhere and everywhere.

Rufledt
Rufledt UltraDork
12/10/16 10:20 a.m.

Scavenging is always exciting, I've never been so happy to get a heat sink or an old plumbing fitting. I have probably already dreamt up enough projects to keep me going for the next 2000 years, so I'll have to ease back a bit...

The refractory cement is dryer looking every day. I think I need to fire it up with low heat for a while to bake out any remaining moisture just in case. Today and tomorrow don't look good but I might have a chance to get it going this weekend.

There is a kid meting aluminum in a big crucible using what looks like a deep camp fire with an air tube stuck in the bottom so a charcoal chimney might work.

Rufledt
Rufledt UltraDork
12/10/16 11:10 a.m.

Also I agree kastolite doesn't seem too expensive considering how good the stuff supposedly is. I imagine if I can't get it locally, shipping is going to kill me. If it helps you judge amounts, the Castable refractory cement I used in that video was a 25lb dry bucket. I had barely enough for the bucket-foundry build, but I did have enough.

RevRico
RevRico GRM+ Memberand Dork
12/10/16 12:09 p.m.

I've been on youtube most of today, actually looking at recovering precious metals from PCBs. During that search, I caught both a guy melting cans in a hole he dug in the ground, and another guy with a charcoal chimney and a hair dryer. I also caught a video that has really angered a friend of mine. He, my friend, had about 5 contractor bags of crushed beer cans, and finally took them into the scrap yard about 3 weeks ago. I've now seen a video of a guy using a propane turkey fryer base cranked all the way up and a Pyrex deep casserole dish to melt cans. We both own turkey fryers, we both wanted to do this for a while, this could have been fun.

It's currently snowing, so youtube is as close as I'm getting for a while.

Have you thought about making the propane burner for your foundry? King of Random was doing copper pretty well with 2 of them going into his furnace, looked like a Y tap so only one propane tank was needed.

I'm interested in copper because I have lots and lots of wire that woud be much easier to melt and clean than to strip, but it seems much more in depth than "just add fire" and I'm not too comfortable with that(said as I consider collecting scrap computers again to chemically strip the gold).

That's a little upsetting with the refractory cement. The site you linked says flat rate shipping for 20lb bags, I was hoping a 20 would do it so I didn't have extra sitting around and getting ruined. And also reduced shipping cost vs a 55lb bag. I haven't looked anywhere locally, maybe the fireplace install/repair shop down the road will have something in stock that works, or that I wouldn't have to pay shipping on.

Rufledt
Rufledt UltraDork
12/10/16 4:28 p.m.

Snowing here too but I've been at work, now it's time to head to a church xmas concert put on by the kids. Busy day, not much foundry time... I did strip a big chunk of cast aluminum and cast zinc (possibly an alloy called zamak) out of a junk LG washer, though. The one good thing about those is they use cheap alloys instead of steel at every possibility, so there is more that I can melt. Also the zinc tub struts guarantee the things go to the dump in very short order, I should have all I need!

Don't feel too bad about the cans, now you have an excuse to drink more! Melting can you lose 50% or more of the weight because of plastic liners and oxidation. It's best to get some melted Al and dunk the can under the surface so it melts without exposure to the air. Cans, sheet, and extrusions are also pretty pure, which doesn't cast or machine as well so I read. Cast aluminum like wheels or cylinder heads contain lots of silicon, that's the really good stuff to melt.

I was told that adding 5% or so copper to pure aluminum can improve the casting characteristics, but too much and it gets brittle.

There is one really good aluminum casting channel called MyFordBoy, he makes mini steam trains. Melting cans is "just add fire" but casting is a little more involved. Not too bad, though, and MyFordBoy uses flux and degassing stuff that you can get at a grocery store (low sodium table salt and washing soda)

I thought about the propane, and I might do that at some point, but charcoal is more appealing to me at the moment for some reason. Mostly the ease of use. Hardwood lump charcoal is so cheap locally too. I could buy a lot of it for the cost of materials to build a propane burner.

Edit: also go check out http://www.alloyavenue.com/. I've only fired my foundry a few times, they can talk from actual experience, and so far they have been extremely helpful to me.

Rufledt
Rufledt UltraDork
12/10/16 10:21 p.m.

Had a random thought, how would cast parts factor into challenge budgets? Price of materials alone? Do you budget for the charcoal? I assume you could gather quite the collection of free aluminum cans for materials (free as in recycle bins on the street corner or ask people to save them for you).

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/11/16 9:04 a.m.

Before you all start making stuff, study your alloys.

It's one thing to make something that looks neat, and you can machine into a piece of art.

It's another to cast a suspension arm.

That being said- if you want a really high quality aluminum, the Alfa heads are really good. Just got to strip everything off of them. Theoretically, most of these old engines can be sand cast- since that's how they were made- but they also need some nice heat treatment for the alloys to be very effective.

Some other comments- burning plastics isn't really good for your health. That's why they are regulated in the first place. Yes, I know that a small batch isn't going to do much on a big scale, I will remind you that you are well within the very small and local area. Just be careful.

The PCBs- before melting boards to extract the gold, copper, and other metals in them- look into the refining of the raw ore first. Not sure if it's possible on a small scale- but grind those parts up small enough, and it's not that different than raw ore. Which is one thing I've never figured out why you don't see that for parts recycling.

RevRico
RevRico GRM+ Memberand Dork
12/11/16 12:34 p.m.
alfadriver wrote: The PCBs- before melting boards to extract the gold, copper, and other metals in them- look into the refining of the raw ore first. Not sure if it's possible on a small scale- but grind those parts up small enough, and it's not that different than raw ore. Which is one thing I've never figured out why you don't see that for parts recycling.

At least from all I've been reading lately, heat doesn't do the boards much good. BUT bleach and muriatic acid combine to do a fantastic job of separating the gold from the boards. Guessing on my part, but the gold flake may be too thin and fragile to just melt off(***). BGA chips on the other hand, burn up to a fine ash that does contain a bit of gold, and yes that could be a bit hazardous to burn. A couple of 5 gallon buckets, an air pump, and something like Urea to neutralize the acid when it's done makes it surprisingly easy to chemically separate the good from the bad, then smelt as needed.

General consensus across YouTube consisting of scientists and chem majors to red necks, was a pound of circuit board fingers, the part on RAM and similar that plugs into the motherboard, will leave you around 1 gram of roughly 18K gold after some work. Just the fingers are selling for around $8/pound on fleabay ready to process, not exactly a high profit idea, but could be good for making trinkets or accents.

If I actually do anything with this, I'll run a similar build thread to this one. What I hate about winter, it's too cold to work outside, so I sit inside and come up with ideas on how to destroy my free time in the warm months.

*** there was one Australian guy whose work looked promising until the end. He was doing a 1000 RAM card challenge, and using a soldering iron to strip the gold fingers and copper backings off the RAM. Went fast, no chemicals, looked great, until he tried to melt everything in a crucible with MAP gas. I wholly blame his failure on not knowing how to actually melt a bunch of metal. The 500 RAM chips worth of fingers he stripped off though weighed just over 3 Troy ounces, but that included the gold fingers, the copper backing, and I'm sure bits of silicon. Nothing a proper glowing crucible couldn't handle with some Borax, but not something a MAP torch had any business heating. Although at 2 - 4 sticks per computer, unless you work in a PC repair center, that just wouldn't be worth doing for most people. I'd say go check his videos out, but they turn into 45 minutes of him talking in circles without really saying anything.

With enough patience, one can even extract silver from old CDs. 21 cds made 0.1 grams though, not worth the time and hassle unless you have a truckload of them. 5600 cds per ounce of silver, you'd spend more on the chemicals than the silver would be worth and still be stuck with 5600 plastic discs.

Rufledt
Rufledt UltraDork
12/11/16 1:00 p.m.

i watched that australian guy, and i agree, lots of talking in circles but there are some good moments in there. he did one thing on tinned copper wire. i did not know that was a thing. i got some wire from oven igniters thinking it was aluminum by the color, but it was too heavy. hit it with some steel wool and its copper underneath! must be coated to help prevent corrosion in the heat. ive read about silver coated wire but i highly doubt they do that on oven igniters. If i melt this down, would it end up an alloy of tin and copper? It would be a great source of free bronze, although in extremely small quantities. We do an oven igniter almost every day and there is usually some wasted wire left over. It would take forever to build up a pound but otherwise the stuff just ends up in the trash, so why not?

Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/11/16 7:09 p.m.

Foundries have led me to viewing induction coil videos on Youtube. It's just as tempting and neat. You've been warned.

minivan_racer
minivan_racer UltraDork
12/11/16 8:35 p.m.

So youtube recommended a $155 3D printer kit and a ton of diy AL casting and Brass casting videos.

Rufledt
Rufledt UltraDork
12/11/16 8:39 p.m.

This stuff?

https://www.youtube.com/embed/AiYnDskFxTo

That must be witchcraft. that's the only way i can explain it

Rufledt
Rufledt UltraDork
12/11/16 8:52 p.m.

I got some pine wood for making a couple flasks when i'm finished being laid up. Looks like i won't be firing my newly lined mini foundry until that point (probably a couple weeks) since it still doesn't quite look totally dry. Looks like 2 more weeks that i won't be able to use the foundry should give it plenty of time to dry. If not i'll shove it in the oven for a while at 200 or so.

There appears to be multiple ways to make a flask, but i'm going to follow the method outlined in the Gingery book, since he gives size dimensions of flasks that will be useful in his projects and i intend to do some of those. Here's a picture i found that seems to show the same locating system that he shows:

While it's certainly cool looking, i'm going to pass on dovetailing immediately post wrist-surgery, and i'm not going to use mahogany for the locating plates. When i get to building this stuff i should probably move over to a build thread...

Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/12/16 1:54 p.m.
Rufledt wrote: This stuff? That must be witchcraft. that's the only way i can explain it

That is the stuff. I'm surprised that guy isn't wearing more protective gear, or at least gloves.

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