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Jan. 18, 2009 8:44 p.m. pinchvalve UltraDork

All I am reading about the Big Three Bailout centers around Detroit needing to make more fuel efficient cars. Batteries, hybrids, diesels...whatever. That seems to be the only thing that Detroit needs to do to save themselves according to the media.

What about the fact that their cars suck compared to the imports? I mean, a crappy, underpowered, overweight ugly Dodge hybrid will still not outsell a Prius! Have you seen the plastics inside a late-90s Pontiac compared to an Audi? The content, quality, performance, options...everything has been better on imports than domestics. Sure, we can do BIG trucks and SUV's, but so can Nissan and Toyota. People have not been buying imports becase they are better on gas for the past 25 years, they have been buying them because they are BETTER.

I hope that they put some bailout money into making something I would actually want to own and can afford, instead of $40,000 electric subcompacts. (Volt)
Jan. 18, 2009 8:57 p.m. Josh Reader

Not to mention that none of our esteemed congresspersons seem to have noticed that the undisputed leader in the fuel efficiency arena, Toyota, has been of late bleeding cash almost as profusely as the big 3.
Jan. 18, 2009 9:18 p.m. AngryCorvair Dork

so are you hating on the media or on Detroit with this post? I'm not sure which way you're going here, so I'll defend Detroit first.

hybrids suck, and are economically not viable yet. that's why there's a $7500 tax credit to the purchaser of a hybrid. people only buy them for the statement they make, which is why the prius got an all-new and exclusive body. if it was really about saving the planet, the only new tooling for the prius would've been for the hybrid-specific parts. or, if the prius shape is so efficient, all small toyotas would be that shape and they'd be able to claim better numbers for a larger volume of cars.

and in case you hadn't noticed, there aren't any new late-90s Pontiacs being sold anymore, so using what Detroit built in the 90s as part of your position only shows that you haven't been in anything new from Detroit for a long time. Detroit is on par or better for quality, durability, performance, economy, emissions, and cost, but there are too many people holding on to the horror stories of the '80s and '90s that they heard from their uncle's brother's cousin the fourth, and they haven't actually driven a new Detroit product against the transnationals / imports.

Go drive a Fusion and get back to me.
Jan. 18, 2009 9:19 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

Josh wrote:

Not to mention that none of our esteemed congresspersons seem to have noticed that the undisputed leader in the fuel efficiency arena, Toyota, has been of late bleeding cash almost as profusely as the big 3.

good point. They just have more cash to bleed, so it doesn't sting as much.
Jan. 18, 2009 9:24 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

AngryCorvair wrote:

and in case you hadn't noticed, there aren't any new late-90s Pontiacs being sold anymore,

What you say?

hopefully they bring back this gem.. I needs me a new snow tank when I move back up north

and Ok.. you've got me intrigued in fords new products... Especially since i read this.. I wonder where the new engines will come from as I believe the scorpion project was killed..

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/01/16/ford-and-navistar-settle-lawsuits-quit-die...

http://special-reports.pickuptrucks.com/2009/01/chrysler-postpones-lightduty-diese...

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jan. 18, 2009 9:33 p.m. neon4891 SuperDork

AC has a good point about QC imporvements for the most part. I have been paying attention to things like interior feel more due to car shoping. What i have seen in ford is decent, just hope they have improved the brake lines...

I have looked at 2 GMs on the same platform, with many "corprate parts bin" interior components. The Chevy was lousy, but the Pontiac was much nicer. Shockingly nice, but maybe the chevy just lived a harder life up to this point.

And the new dodges scream "CRAP", my '98 neon with 120K has a more solid interior than '06-'07 calibers and avengers.

Oddly this QC parelels the situation, Ford is doing the best of the big 3, GM is hurting bad, and I just dont understand how Chrysler is still around
Jan. 18, 2009 9:36 p.m. InigoMontoya New Reader

On a somewhat related note, wife and I are pretty much decided on a new fit, but a sub 20K hybrid (the new insight) may also be on the list. now that IS economically viable.
Jan. 18, 2009 10:12 p.m. blaze86vic New Reader

So annoying that for all the crappy Pontiac, Dodge, Chrysler somehow Ford gets lumped into it. Ford doesn't need a bail out, isn't asking for one, and has already turned it self around. Foresight, a concept the other big two missed the lecture on.
Jan. 18, 2009 10:25 p.m. MikeSVO New Reader

ignorant wrote:

AngryCorvair wrote:

and in case you hadn't noticed, there aren't any new late-90s Pontiacs being sold anymore,

What you say?

It's true. GM stopped making, and therefore selling, late 90's cars sometime in the lateR 90's.

And FWIW, some of that stuff just would NOT die. Oh, sure, the interior was nothing great, but when my high school buddies and I bought a car for $200 for a road trip, we agreed ahead of time that if it died, we'd leave it (or sell it, whatever...) and make our way home somehow.

That thing made it from NH down to and through PA, to Toronto, Niagara Falls, and oh, why not take the long way home and go to VA Beach? Never missed a beat the whole way. And it was a PIECE OF E36 M3. I have pics of it somewhere...

Old Cutlass Cierra Brougham FTW!! It was the Olds version of the car you posted. haha...
Jan. 18, 2009 10:39 p.m. P71 HalfDork

SERIOUSLY!?!?!?!!!! I thought people on this board were above blind biased hatred spewing forth like an Eminem song. Oh where or where to begin to hope to show you the extremist error of your ways...

First, the "bailout" is a freaking LOAN, not a bailout like we so stupidly gave the banks. Second, Ford does not need it so stop lumping them in with the other 2. Third, ALL automakers are feeling the suck right now, so get off your high damn horse!

Now, more fuel efficient cars? Did you know that GM's 5.3 V8 1/2-tons get 21MPG and Toyota's V6 Tundra only gets 17? Or how about the Traverse's trumping of the Honda? Or the fact that both Ford and GM have better overall CAFE numbers then Toyota and beat them model-for-model on the majority? Come on pinchvalve, don't spew rhetoric without some actual data to back it up!

I will give you that most Dodge's these days are crappy, underpowered, and overweight, but they don't even offer a Hybrid to compete with the Earth-destroying ego-monster that is the Pious. If you'd spend 5 minutes reading actual information you would know that the production of the Pious (especially the EPA-rated as Hazardous Waste batteries) makes them more harmful to the environment than Hummers.

Comparing a 10-to-15 year old Pontiac interior to a modern Audi? Come on man, that's WEAK. If you want to complain about interiors, name some NEW ones! You'll find that most domestics are on par or better than their foreign classmates (Pontiac and Audi are OBVIOUSLY not the same class! Might as well compare a Hyundai to a Caddy!).

As for the content, quality, performance, and options, again you're wrong. What outperforms even the base Vette, let alone the Z51/Z06/ZR1? Got anything for the Cobalt SS Turbo? How about the pulling power of a Cummins or Duramax or even a 6.0 VortecMAX? What about the quality of the new Malibu, Fusion, or G8? You have NO factual basis for such an obscure claim!

People have not been buying more imports. In case you haven't noticed GM still hasn't lost it's title of biggest manufacturer for each model year. Toyota only beat them one whole quarter. Growing market share? I'll give you that. You know they only made inroads originally on PRICE, not quality (that came later). Again, as of 2009 MANY of the cars from domestics are equal or better than their foreign classmates.

(Note that I drive and own a 26-year-old Mazda, which is an IMPORT)
Jan. 18, 2009 11:34 p.m. maroon92 SuperDork

what P71 said ^^^^^

(by the way, Chrysler deserves to die...and with it Dodge, but save Jeep and Viper. GM needs to scale things back, they have been a big company for so long, they cannot see the forest for the trees, ie. pinch pennies. Ford is in great shape for the future, an influx of new models, plenty of capital, and higher build quality than anyone in their class. Seriously, Drive a Fusion!)
Jan. 18, 2009 11:51 p.m. racinginc215 New Reader

Don't waste your breath people belive what they hear and not fact. it's a bailout even though GM and Chrysler have to pay the money back. I wonder if I can call my mortgage a bailout and not have to pay? All I've got to say is my 91 SHO has just as nice interior as the neighbors 04 Audi.
Jan. 19, 2009 12:07 a.m. gamby UberDork

Well, the Ford Fiesta has a nice 16v DOHC vairiable valve-timing engine. That's a nice start.

When that car comes to the States, I think it will be pretty successful.

...and that concludes my interest in the domestic automotive market (and I still wouldn't buy one) (even if it came here like the euro-spec car) (which it probably won't)
Jan. 19, 2009 1:11 a.m. Schmidlap New Reader

You're pissed because a late 90's Pontiac's interior doesn't compare well to a late 90's Audi's interior? Why don't you compare their original prices too? Last I checked, Audi was considered luxury and priced accordingly, and Pontiac was much more entry level.

Bob
Jan. 19, 2009 2:17 a.m. wherethefmi2000 Reader

Agreed on the sho being nice (though mine doesn't look that great PO to blame) what car in the 90s had so many luxury features for the price.
Jan. 19, 2009 2:33 a.m. racinginc215 New Reader

I have 100% perfect uncracked unrubbed perforated black leather in the SHO and the sunroof sunshade is perfect. The neighbors Audi has a tan leather that is cracking and the sun shade fell out. it's an 04 the SHO is a 91 I think I'm winning that game. Then again the A4 is a driver and the SHO only see's summer duty.
Jan. 19, 2009 6:24 a.m. Kramer Reader

I'm sure Pinchvalve will come up with some anecdote about his mom's Chevrolet being in the shop indefinitely, and how his friend's Honda went 250,000 miles without any maintenance.

He should read some of the fact-based, quantifiable reports, instead of believing stories he reads on the internet.
Jan. 19, 2009 6:37 a.m. ddavidv SuperDork

Yes, this debate is pretty pointless. For generic transportation, the domestics are just fine. I mean, can anything be duller than a Camry in both looks and driving experience yet still be successful? If that thing had a Dodge badge on the front, they couldn't give it away. Brand loyalty gone wild.

I've been stuck driving domestic fleet vehicles for the last dozen or more years, beginning with a Tempo with electric mice seatbelts. Trust me, the domestics of today are fine on both mileage and reliability. Where they fall short is in details such as interior plastics, because the are (unfortunately) decontenting and dumbing down the cars to a price point in an attempt to be competitive on price with the imports, because the perception is that domestics are not as good. Thus, they must beat them on price, which is pretty hard to do when you've got UAW legacy costs and a government constantly nagging you about CAFE standards, among other things. That they made mistakes in product is apparent. It happens. But the OPer is way off base in his alleged 'comparison' between a 1990s plastic-molding-laden Pontiac and current offerings.
Jan. 19, 2009 6:40 a.m. ignorant PowerDork

wait wait....

back up the truck. I now think pinchvalves post is all sarcasm. He was the guy talking about the intrepid R/T right.
Jan. 19, 2009 7:20 a.m. GameboyRMH SuperDork

Yeah I've noticed the interior of American cars has improved. My family rented a 2007 (I think) Pontiac G5 last year in Canada and it was about up to par with a Japanese car. That car was pretty thirsty for a compact though...I would have taken the Yaris/Echo we rented the year before over it in a heartbeat.
Jan. 19, 2009 7:22 a.m. John Brown UltimaDork

Yeah I remember the near flame war from me mocking his DD years ago.

Needless to say I absolutely love my wifes 2004 Dodge Stratus. 70K miles with oil services every 5K, one set of plugs and wires and one transmission flush is all that it has asked of us.
Jan. 19, 2009 8:37 a.m. littleturquoiseb Reader

+1 to what p71 said ...

GM may need some re-orginization ... in general detriot is paying for past sins. Currently they build some great stuff and why should we blame them for building what the public wanted (big trucks and lux crossovers). They were profitable and sellable ... at 2 bucks a gallon we bought them!

Jeff
Jan. 19, 2009 9:21 a.m. Snowdoggie Reader

P71 wrote:

Now, more fuel efficient cars? Did you know that GM's 5.3 V8 1/2-tons get 21MPG and Toyota's V6 Tundra only gets 17? Or how about the Traverse's trumping of the Honda?

Come to think of it, does anybody outside of the big three make anything like a one ton dually or even a 3/4 ton pickup. I know people around here in the cattle and horse breeding business who will be needing and buying big trucks, even if gas goes back up to $4 a gallon. There are lots of people in the construction business who need something bigger than a half ton as well.
Jan. 19, 2009 9:34 a.m. P71 HalfDork

Hey Gamby, Ford's EcoBoost stuff is coming out this year and should be a real treat. And if you don't think LSx engines are great than you're just not a car person. Also the Ecotec turbo's (ala Cobalt and HHR SS and Solstice GXP/Sky Redline) are just the cat's meow right now. Try the high-feature V6 GM engine as found in the CTS or Camaro, you know, the one that makes MORE power than Ford's V8 AND gets better economy?

ddavidv, AMEN!

GameboyRMH, Are you sure it wasn't operator error? I drove a SUPERCHARGED Cobalt SS Ecotec (which is what the N/A Pontiac G5 is based off of) for 2 weeks and got 35MPG observed in mixed driving, and that's with a couple full-throttle beatings. If you're doing worse than that N/A you have a foot made of lead or there's something wrong.

Snowdoggie, If you want anything bigger than a half-ton, then you have to buy Big3, period. Nissan's new Titan is going to be a re-badged Ram and the Tundra is an epic failure as an actual truck to do actual truck things. I love that new GMC commercial with the baby-faced kid and his Tundra V6 going "I'm a trucker!" as they compare MPG's.
Jan. 19, 2009 9:51 a.m. 4cylndrfury New Reader

littleturquoiseb wrote:

GM may need some re-orginization ... in general detriot is paying for past sins. Currently they build some great stuff and why should we blame them for building what the public wanted (big trucks and lux crossovers). They were profitable and sellable ... at 2 bucks a gallon we bought them!

Jeff

+253!

we bought crossovers all day long when we didnt care about gas. America didnt start getting fired up about detroit until they wanted some help. I dont blame GM/Dodge/Ford. I blame the UAW. Sure, no one liked a lot of the Cars detroit made, but we didnt care becasue we wanted their Truck-UVs for so long, they didnt pay attention to their cars. Then, when the big2+ford had to rework some stuff when fuel skyrocketted and they had to move production away from bigger platforms, they didnt have enough cash cuz the UAW had been forcing them into enormous overhead for decades. Agreed, an new approach needs to be taken when looking at revamping the current models available, but the new Cobalt SS looks like a great first step for GM, and the new boosted 6 cylinders from Ford (Ecoboost I think its called, posted in the other forum) is a freakin awesome concept. Dodge...well they still have vipers and Challengers right?

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