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Login to post Forums » Off-topic discussion » I thought the big three just sucked.

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Jan. 19, 2009 5:23 p.m. P71 HalfDork

In reply to ignorant:

Yes because Consumer Reports is sooooo accurate and trustworthy. What with their public admittance of not testing Toyota products and just assuming they were all perfect or that whole testing child safety seats at 10MPH higher than they were reporting. Please! Find me facts from REPUTABLE sources!

If you want to say who has worse marketing I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Toyotas commercials blow chunks and annoy people.

If you want to talk dealer service, then we have something to talk about as yes, most domestic dealers are worse than their import compatriots.

In reply to Datsun1500:

Shouldn't you not buy a Dodge anymore? It's not any more Ford or GM's fault that your Dodges died than it is Toyota or Honda's!
Jan. 19, 2009 6:39 p.m. kreb Dork

I appreciate P71's sticking up for the US manufacturers. It drives me freaking crazy to hear American's ragging so heavily on their car companys. So few people have any loyalty, it's just pathetic. If the Euro/Japanese cars were a lot better than their American equivalents, well that's one thing. But in most cases they're not. But we've been drinking the kool-aid that somehow America can get by on hi-tech, finance and service. That's BS. We actually have to make something. And believe it or not, we're better than ever at making things.

And another thing. How many of us are leeching off our employers whilst we go on about how sub-par American manufacturing is? "Sure boss, I'll have that report done just as soon as I finish my diatribe on those wastefull Detroiters".
Jan. 19, 2009 6:43 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

P71 wrote:

In reply to ignorant:

Yes because Consumer Reports is sooooo accurate and trustworthy. What with their public admittance of not testing Toyota products and just assuming they were all perfect or that whole testing child safety seats at 10MPH higher than they were reporting. Please! Find me facts from REPUTABLE sources!

If you want to say who has worse marketing I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Toyotas commercials blow chunks and annoy people.

If you want to talk dealer service, then we have something to talk about as yes, most domestic dealers are worse than their import compatriots.

I argue that dealer service and advertising are both marketing tools.

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/08/09/0918_best_brands/index.htm

best 100 brands in the world. based upon brand equity. Ford is in there. but at half the value of Honda. I do not find Toyota though... Save ford, all the other car makes in there are furrin..

marketing is more than advertising my friend. It's the science of turning a want into a need.....

Edit: toyota is # 6.. With brand valuation like that they could make a car out of feces and medical waste and still have enough customers to purchase it and declare it the best car in the world for years...
Jan. 19, 2009 6:44 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

kreb wrote:

And another thing. How many of us are leeching off our employers whilst we go on about how sub-par American manufacturing is? "Sure boss, I'll have that report done just as soon as I finish my diatribe on those wastefull Detroiters".

How about this one I heard today... "but the Wuxi plant has 0.3% scrap on machining.. I don't care if you have 1.1%.. It's too high"
Jan. 19, 2009 6:50 p.m. wherethefmi2000 Reader

I believe any of the autos would tell you tough luck once the warranty expires regardless of nation of origin. I've experienced this with not domestic and forgien makes, ford and subaru to be exact. So what I mean is you took no for an answer when you were service dept then went and cried once the problem got worse.

Not fixing typos on the iPod
Jan. 19, 2009 6:58 p.m. Datsun1500 HalfDork

Bobzilla wrote:

"Domestic"? Or Dodge? Why would ANYONE assume that because Dodge has X problem, GM or Ford have the same? That's about as retarded as anything I've read today, and trust me, I;ve read some really retarded things today.

I figured that was enough to give you an idea of the general thinking of the population. I did not have time to go into the Chevy Lumina that had the brakes go out at 2300 miles and again at 5700 miles......

I don't just lump all of the domestics together. I have tried GM and had major issues, Dodge and had major issues, and Ford, and had major issues (Remember the Aerostar quality?)

So after the Ford issue I tried GM, after the GM issues I tried Dodge, After the Dodge issues I bought Honda and Toyota.

The sad part is all of my employees work vans were Chevy Astro vans because they were tough to kill, even if they rattled apart. Now they are all Honda Odysseys.....
Jan. 19, 2009 7:01 p.m. mel_horn HalfDork

kreb wrote:

I appreciate P71's sticking up for the US manufacturers. It drives me freaking crazy to hear American's ragging so heavily on their car companys. So few people have any loyalty, it's just pathetic.

I would submit that if any or all of the Big Three CEOs had given it right back to our dumbass congressional committee and called THEM on some of the stupid things THEY pull off ; that Americans just might be lining up at dealerships to buy American.

(Example: Pelosi and Reid and their gov't jets, both live out West...)
Jan. 19, 2009 7:07 p.m. Datsun1500 HalfDork

wherethefmi2000 wrote:

I believe any of the autos would tell you tough luck once the warranty expires regardless of nation of origin.

The warranty was not up on the Durango. Dodge told me I did not change the oil, which caused it to sludge up. After showing that it was serviced at the Dodge dealer every 3000 miles they said, "sue us" I did and won.

My point is there is no reason a motor should throw a rod at 60K when it has had regular service, nor should a car just catch on fire (regardless of the miles, it was only 18 months old)

I know Honda will fix cars out of warranty if they have had regular service done...

All I am trying to show is that the domestic companies treated ME wrong, and I will not go back. Multiply that by a few hundred thousand and you will see how they got where they are....
Jan. 19, 2009 7:39 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

wherethefmi2000 wrote:

I believe any of the autos would tell you tough luck once the warranty expires regardless of nation of origin. I've experienced this with not domestic and forgien makes, ford and subaru to be exact. So what I mean is you took no for an answer when you were service dept then went and cried once the problem got worse.

Not fixing typos on the iPod

Do I have to retype the story.

here goes. 99 honda accord auto trans died @ 120k + my dad calling honda customer care = free transmission..
the trans warranty expired at 30k but they extended to 100k when trans had problems then it died 20k later.. HOLY CRAP THEY REPLACED IT.. He's owned a honda accord since 1986. With 3-5 year ownership intervals.

like i've said before.. that kind of customer service made sure my father would only purchase hondas until he dies... period. He might consider an acura but probably not.

now for P71.. Please read back in my posts and understand that I am not making fun of their current products. I like the innovation I am seeing out of Ford(yay turbos).. My argument is that what the products are now doesn't matter so much. It matter that they keep this up for MANY years to come. Turning perception around and building brand equity, once lost, is nearly impossible. Case in point most domestic consumer electronics manufacturers..

You're ridiculous diatribes have only proven one thing to me.. you need to read the links I post.. especially the 101 ways to destroy your tribe. That sucker is good. Really Really Good.
Jan. 19, 2009 9:19 p.m. P71 HalfDork

ignorant wrote:

Edit: toyota is # 6.. With brand valuation like that they could make a car out of feces and medical waste and still have enough customers to purchase it and declare it the best car in the world for years...

They do, it's called the Pious...
Jan. 19, 2009 9:21 p.m. P71 HalfDork

In reply to Datsun1500:

My neighbor bought their Aerostar brand new. Over 215K now on the original engine and trans. They're the kind of people that NEVER do maintenance either. Ever thought just maybe it might be operator error with that many bad apples in a row? hmmmm?
Jan. 19, 2009 9:25 p.m. P71 HalfDork

In reply to ignorant:

I'm reading your stuff, but we're all in the infield arguing about product quality and you're standing out in the parking lot shouting marketing. And I'm telling you that you have it wrong! Just because a few loudmouths and yourself have bad perception for some perceived or actual wrongdoings 20 years ago does NOT mean that that is how the entirety of the general public feels. AGAIN, read the sales numbers and initial quality rankings. The BUYING public still votes with their dollars, and right now that's still domestics.
Jan. 19, 2009 9:49 p.m. Datsun1500 HalfDork

P71 wrote:

In reply to Datsun1500:

My neighbor bought their Aerostar brand new. Over 215K now on the original engine and trans. They're the kind of people that NEVER do maintenance either. Ever thought just maybe it might be operator error with that many bad apples in a row? hmmmm?

The same operator that put 60K on the Durango has put 120K on a Lexus LX470 (Wife) with no issues

The same operator that killed the Aerostar and Lumina has put 250K miles on 2 Honda Odysseys, one I still drive and the other was given to one of my employees at 260K and now has almost 400K miles.

Yeah it must be operator error........

Your ball.
Jan. 19, 2009 9:59 p.m. P71 HalfDork

That's why I said at the time. I have a 232K mile never been rebuilt and still kicks Porsche butt at the autocross Mazda rotary but I still killed quite a few cars in a row when I was younger.

Your theory of bad Dodge = all domestics are bad still holds no water. BTW, Aerostars and Luminas haven't been made in nearly 20 years. Might want to start disregarding those experiences, no? I mean Germany did some bad stuff in the past and those sneaky Japs sneak-attacked Pearl Harbor so you shouldn't buy from them either.

Wake up and see what the companies have done in the last 10 years. Toyota has massive frame rust failures, camshaft gears falling off in new engines, falling gas mileage, lower quality, and a host of recalls. Ford has been selling off investment brands, developing and selling exciting new products, and climbing the quality charts. GM has been making a turn-around of titanic proportions and is on the verge of releasing the world's first real production electric-first hybrid plug-in.

Yet you still pass judgment based on cars from 15-20 years ago...
Jan. 19, 2009 10:14 p.m. Datsun1500 HalfDork

P71 wrote:

Yet you still pass judgment based on cars from 15-20 years ago...

No, I pass judgment on my personal experience with domestic cars. 1993 Aerostar, 1995 Lumina, 1999 Durango and 2003 Caravan. 10 years of crap was enough for me.

You say to see what they have to offer now, I ask why would I? I got screwed 4 times and feel that is enough.

How many times should I let them beat me up? A 2003 Caravan is not that long ago, and from what I have seen the 2008 Caravan is more of the same.
Jan. 19, 2009 10:29 p.m. DirtyBird222 HalfDork

derekshannon wrote:

DirtyBird222 wrote:

The meter made at UCF wrote me a ticket and confused my Fit for a f'ing Hyundai WTF

If you're going to insult a car, at least use spell check!

Plus... A Fit? And you were insulted why? (kidding, I like the looks of a Fit, not to mention I don't bash other peoples' cars)

Yes a Fit. I also own a 2000 Pontiac Trans Am (built in 08/99), but according to some of the people in this thread it's just a big ole stinky piece of chit. Even though it has over 100k miles, put a cam in after 100k, revs to 6900rpm now, gets the piss beaten out of it and still runs like hell, not to mention everything on the interior minus the seats are the same way that they came from the factory (sold the stock seats and got Corbeaus). The Fit gets good mpgs, has lots of room to haul my homies around in, the back seats also fold down so I can do dirty things to my girlfriend, and it's something I know I won't want to mod because it's pointless to do anything to those cars for looks or performance. It's also a HONDA!
Jan. 19, 2009 10:29 p.m. P71 HalfDork

Question. If it had been 10 years of imports doing you wrong (like say, my neighbor), would you not give them anymore of a chance? Honestly?
Jan. 19, 2009 10:44 p.m. HiTempguy Reader

P71 wrote:

Question. If it had been 10 years of imports doing you wrong (like say, my neighbor), would you not give them anymore of a chance? Honestly?

Unfortunatley for a lot of people, it has been the domestics :( I love ALL types of cars, I'm equal opportunity. Having said that, anything in my price range (below $5K) the domestics have seriously lacked in SINCE I WAS BORN. Hell, WRX's are going for around $8K in ok shape now. Uh, what does GM have to offer for that? Ford has the SVT Focus? Sure, I guess I could get a Mustang, but that isn't really practical (go read the definition practical, it ain't). And the only Chrysler product I'll touch are the old turbo cars or a Neon.

I own a 2000 Ford Focus right now. The coil pack was toast when I bought it, and the suspension clunks like crazy at 100K miles. Sure, I don't have my doubts it was abused. But I have a 1994 Honda Civic with 160,000 miles on it, and the only issue with it is a bad head rebuild causing it to burn a bit of oil. Head was rebuilt because someone messed up the coolant, popped the headgasket, and wrecked stuff in general. Otherwise though (except for human error in breaking E36 M3) the car is a DREAM to drive to this day.
Jan. 19, 2009 10:55 p.m. mtn Dork

I'm gonna throw a bone out to GM customer service. We have an 02 Saab (sweedish autos always break), and it threw a rod at 95,000 miles. It comes from an oil sludge problem, a problem that has been recognized by the General. They extended the warranty to 8 years from the original purchase date. We now have a brand new engine in our car, and a clutch was put in there too with no labor charges.
Jan. 20, 2009 5:20 a.m. Bobzilla Reader

No one has mentioned this. .. likeyly no one wants to. . . what about Honduh's quality auto trans? Wanna know WHY they are replacing these long afterwarranty is up? To keep people quiet. Honduh hasn't built a good 5spd auto yet. I still see 2-3 weekly at a smaller dealership.
Jan. 20, 2009 6:18 a.m. ignorant PowerDork

Bobzilla wrote:

No one has mentioned this. .. likeyly no one wants to. . . what about Honduh's quality auto trans? Wanna know WHY they are replacing these long afterwarranty is up? To keep people quiet. Honduh hasn't built a good 5spd auto yet. I still see 2-3 weekly at a smaller dealership.

or to keep it's customers... marketing people..

re read the quick mba link for the marketing mix.. it's that simple..
Jan. 20, 2009 6:37 a.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

ignorant wrote:

Bobzilla wrote:

No one has mentioned this. .. likeyly no one wants to. . . what about Honduh's quality auto trans? Wanna know WHY they are replacing these long afterwarranty is up? To keep people quiet. Honduh hasn't built a good 5spd auto yet. I still see 2-3 weekly at a smaller dealership.

or to keep it's customers... marketing people..

re read the quick mba link for the marketing mix.. it's that simple..

Yeah bobzilla, they break. Once again the difference:

Check back to when A604's were puking right left and center (BTW, it appears after many years they have finally gotten better). I ran an AAMCO tranny shop, between those, Ford's big electronic truck tranny/ CD4E and the GM 4T60E we ate pretty good. I'm talking 75K mile trannys, the customers almost invariably had been back to the dealership and were refused any assistance then called us. I used to send tow trucks to the dealerships quite regularly. Having a lot of dealership background I can safely say that directive came from Chrysler/GM/Ford corporate management and yes they were quite aware of the problems. So these people would come in still owing money on a vehicle but now they had to pony up $2k for a tranny and they were quite adamant they would NOT buy another domestic.

Hell, the Odyssey that I think the GRM wrecking crew still owns was bought to replace a Grand Caravan which ralphed the tranny at, IIRC, 78K miles.

So Honduh has problems with their boxes; at least they are fixing them with the long range intention of keeping their customers. The Big 3 did NOT do that and are now reaping what they sowed.
Jan. 20, 2009 7:03 a.m. 4cylndrfury New Reader

Jensenman wrote:

The Big 3 ... are now reaping what they sowed.

No doubt. No one is arguing that. Watch 2 minutes of the financial segment of your nightly news, and even an eskimo who never watched TV a day in his life before can see the problem. We all agree that detroit spent a few decades forgetting that Americans are not dumb and will eventually go where they feel they are best served. The thing is, they started listening to us. It may have been a little late, but they are making cars we want. Quality and service is on the up, and I think its only a matter of time before they come out of this for the better...if they can keep the doors open.

Necessity is the mother of invention. Americans invent stuff...the future is clear to see if you can step back a little bit and see the thie bigger picture.

Analogy: China/India/Brazil are using more of the infrastructure-building materials the world manufactures faster than any other countries in the world. Why? They have the largest gap to cover to get up to the rest of the world.

Detroit has the largest gap to cover in the automotive world. I think that all this "bad" press is really going to actually be the ace up their sleeve. If youre under the spotlight, your successes are magnified, and its easier to justify making a big gamble on a new idea than when things re going smooth and dandy. It wont be long before the Malibu/Cobalt SS/Ecoboost/Astra/Challenger/G5/G6/G8 (take your pick )steals the hearts of America back because..."gasp"...Detroit has been working on making cars we want for the last 5-10 years. And like its been said before, it just takes some time for recognition and loyalty swings to be visible through sales.

...And I used to be a Detroit hater...Hardore! So I feel quite self righteous at this point, having swallowed my pride and accepted reality that Americas hayday wasnt just the 60s-70s, they just took some time off is all
Jan. 20, 2009 7:37 a.m. John Brown UltimaDork

I have worked in three different new car dealers the first was a GM dealer in the middle '80s the second was a Ford dealer in the late '90s and I am currently at a VW dealer. I have worked in three different areas of the dealership from a service technician, body shop estimator and now a service writer. Personally two of the three dealerships that I worked for were really more interested in customer sevice than pleasing the bean counters. The GM dealer was known for taking care of their customers if the customer was out of warranty on something. I have seen many instances here at the VW dealer that mimic that atmosphere. The Ford dealer I worked at had horrible customer service/management and the building is STILL empty to this day. The local Honda dealer has a terrible reputation for poor customer service and their sales are falling locally. The best dealers to work at locally are not the typical "top" customer service suppliers. VW, Buick, and Cadillac are the best dealers locally to buy from because of the people they wve working for them.

And as far as 4cf's statement goes: If Jim Hall thinks the Cobalt SS is one of the best handling cars let alone one of the best FWD handling cars ever... well that should speak to some of you, shouldn't it?
Jan. 20, 2009 8:47 a.m. DirtyBird222 HalfDork

Bobzilla wrote:

No one has mentioned this. .. likeyly no one wants to. . . what about Honduh's quality auto trans? Wanna know WHY they are replacing these long afterwarranty is up? To keep people quiet. Honduh hasn't built a good 5spd auto yet. I still see 2-3 weekly at a smaller dealership.

LOL I see quite a few more than that, but mostly in the Odysseys.

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