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  • pinchvalve

    Jan. 20, 2009 8:56 a.m. pinchvalve UltraDork

    P71 wrote:

    YOU need to go look at what the Big 3 are making RIGHT NOW or you need to shut your trap and go crawl back in your cave. Your ignorance and blind hatred is mucking up our board.

    Is someone a little sensitive because they have a POS Pontiac? Perhaps you could let the grown-ups finish their talk now, thanks.

    I am not bashing any particular car or brand, just look at the sales figures and show me where the G8 or any other Pontiac is on this chart:


    I thought so. I am not "bashing" the domestics; the American public (and every other market out there expect for Buicks in China) has been by not buying them. Imports rule the bulk of sales (outside of trucks) and only incentives, rebates and fleet sales have kept the Big 3 afloat. And some brand-loyalty to Chevy and Ford apparently. Find me one slice of data that shows the domestic car business doing a whole lot better than the imports over the past 10 or 20 years.

    There are certainly bright spots in the Domestic offerings. The Malibu for instance hits the heart of the US car market and is doing pretty well. It is the first Chevy that has got people interested because of the product, not just brand loyalty or huge rebates. This car will get people away from their Camry or Accord. Amazing that GM did it, now they have to apply that same quality and attention to detail to the rest of their cars. They will get there, unless they stop trying and just concentrate on the Volt and other hybrids. Do you want a Volt? Neither do I. But I would like a Chevy product that has the quality of the Malibu, but competes with the Mazda 3 or Civic on quality, size, features, value, resale, etc etc etc.

    You can argue how good and reliable US cars are until you are blue in the face, but the FACT is that they are asking the US government for billions of dollars because their sales have slid so far. The recent gas crunch and the economy has hit every automaker, but the domestics were in trouble before all of that. How did they let Toyota and Honda and Hyundai outsell them on their home turf? Why are domestic exports such a joke compared to imports? Why is Cadillac only recently making cars that compete on a world stage, and only having success if they stuff 600hp under the hood?

    I hope that my children can someday go to Detroit and see it alive, vibrant and full of car manufacturing. I hope that the American Auto Worker becomes a viable career for generations again. I want people to aspire to a domestic car, rather than a Mercedes or BMW. I really do. I just think that there needs to be some big changes in the way they do things soon, or we will all be driving Chinese cars. God forbid. A few good cars are a start, but it will take time to change the publics perception and buying patterns.

  • pinchvalve

    Jan. 20, 2009 9:04 a.m. pinchvalve UltraDork

    John Brown wrote:

    And as far as 4cf's statement goes: If Jim Hall thinks the Cobalt SS is one of the best handling cars let alone one of the best FWD handling cars ever... well that should speak to some of you, shouldn't it?

    And it does. Have you compared the interior to the Mazdaspeed3 however? For the money, I will take the extra room, features, level of fit and finish and quality of the Mazda. If the interior and panel fit and plastics of the Cobalt would come up to Honda or Hyundai standards, it would be an excellent car and could compete without huge discounts.

  • Bobzilla

    Jan. 20, 2009 9:12 a.m. Bobzilla Reader

    The Cobalt IS up to current Honduh standards. . . but not up to current Hyundai standards. Honduh's current quality standards, while above Toyoduh's, is still below the Koreans and Domestics.

    And the jab at P71 about his "pos pontiac" and "let the grown ups talk" is completely uncalled for. Go back to your chitvic forums if that;s the attitude you choose to display. If all you can do to support your OPINIONS is jabs at other peoples cars and age, then you're pretty pathetic.

  • P71

    Jan. 20, 2009 9:13 a.m. P71 HalfDork

    I'm not sensitive about a car, I like our Pontiac thank you very much. I'm pissed that you are in here spreading outright BS and then not listening to a damn thing the rest of the GRM community is pointing out to you. You have a serious perception problem.

    Now on to your chart, the G8 wasn't even here in June of 2008 so that answers your question. I should know because my boss bought the first one in our county and that wasn't until September. Can't have sales figures on a car if it's still on the boat from Oz.

    I don't know what part of the sales figures you can't read, but GM is still #1 and magazines and consumers are still rating domestics very well verse their import rivals. Again, I've posted all of the information from sources YOU listed, I guess you just ignore them? You said read the sales figures, and they say that domestics are still doing great. You said check out JD Power, and domestics are right there at the top. You said check out poor resale values yet it's imports that top the list. Please tell us what part of these figures we're not understanding that you apparently do because so far all they've done is prove you wrong.

    If you want a Chevy that competes with a Mazdaspeed3, go drive a Cobalt SS Turbo. It's being lauded as one of the best handling cars ever by no less than Jim Hall.

    Again, only two of the companies are asking for funds, and it's loans, not bailouts, and it's because the whole damn economy is failing. In case you haven't noticed the Japanese imports got additional loans from Japan and the European manufacturers from their respective countries. Forget that little fact?

    AGAIN, HONDA AND TOYOTA AND HYUNDAI HAVEN'T OUTSOLD THEM!!! For love of what part of "#1 Sales for 2008 - GM" do you NOT understand?!?!??? Or that Honda can't even beat Chrysler? WAKE UP!

    BTW, the original CTS competed on a world level very well and the V only had 400HP. The new CTS has been compared favorably worldwide in it's base model V6 form. Stop spouting untrue rhetoric.

    I think we've shown you that the "big change" happened 5-10 years ago and you're just too damn hard-headed to see it.

  • walterj

    Jan. 20, 2009 9:14 a.m. walterj HalfDork

    I just got back from a week in a rented Solstice. I was pretty excited to get to drive one because I love the way it looks and it seemed like a turning point for GM... the rags love it too.

    All I can say is that if that is the best they have... I just can't get on board. The dash was made of that same shiney crap that they put in 80's Gran Prix, I had to reach behind me to lower the windows, the trans hunted all over and lagged badly, the engine sounded like a bunch of marbles in a can. It had 5k on the odo and the dash had rattles. Quote stats all you want... the Japanese might have issues but "perceived" quality isn't one of them. You get in anything from outside detroit and it "feels" better.

    It is one of those things... my MIL has a Malibu that has run mostly trouble free for 8yrs, it rattles, shakes, does a lot bad but keeps going. I had a Passat that was tight as a drum, excellent to drive and prone to failure A LOT. My MIL hates, despises, loathes her reliable car (and I do too). I liked my Passat and always hoped this repair would be the last for a while... I'd buy another one if they would just lie and tell me this one will be better.

  • Strizzo

    Jan. 20, 2009 9:17 a.m. Strizzo Dork

    pinchvalve, its obvious you're trolling now. P71 said that toyota only outsold GM for one quarter, and you go and find sales data from that very quarter! wow, congratulations, you found the MONTH OF JUNE, when gas was roughly $4/gallon and people were panicking. how about showing sales figures from the last quarter of 08. toyota sales down 45%, GM down 35% wow, thats really sticking it to those mean old domestic companies.

  • P71

    Jan. 20, 2009 9:20 a.m. P71 HalfDork

    walter, A rental car? Seriously? I can rent a base model Honda and hate it's guts too. It's a RENTAL! It's been abused and it's the lowest of base models! Go drive something that you'd actually buy (like a turbo manual trans GXP version)!

  • Bobzilla

    Jan. 20, 2009 9:21 a.m. Bobzilla Reader

    You know, from the haters I read a lot of generalizations. "ANY", "ALL", "MOST". . . but nothing to support or back it up. I mean, walterj here eve ADMITS he'd rather drive a falling apart, always busted Passat than a reliable GM. That's sad. You'd rather WALK than admit that they have a quality product that will do it's job day in and day out.

  • Jensenman

    Jan. 20, 2009 9:25 a.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

    The 'big change' did happen 5-10 years ago. Yeah, the Big 3's initial quality got better. I don't dispute that. Two things:

    It's still not fully up to the standards set by the imports.

    The Big 3, as I said, are reaping what they sowed in the 1990's by knowingly turning out shatboxes and refusing to help in the event of a catastrophic failure. Now those people who got screwed are not buying their products.

    Interesting factoid: when the Accord and Taurus were neck and neck for best selling car in the US market, Honda was not selling to fleets but Ford was. Fully 30% of the Taurus' numbers were fleet sales meaning their actual retail sales were about 70% of the Accord's. Hardly an apples to apples comparison.

  • P71

    Jan. 20, 2009 9:25 a.m. P71 HalfDork

    AMEN Bobzilla! Oh, I forgot to mention my boss traded in his 2008 Toyota Camry for the 2009 G8 GT.

  • P71

    Jan. 20, 2009 9:27 a.m. P71 HalfDork

    Jensenman, Maybe you haven't read the JD Powers links? Or sat in a new Malibu or Fusion? Your perceived quality may be "not there", but the ACTUAL quality and the BUYING PUBLIC'S PERCEIVED QUALITY are there.

  • Bobzilla

    Jan. 20, 2009 9:34 a.m. Bobzilla Reader

    ^ See, more opinions without facts to back them. . .but what do we know.

  • fiat22turbo

    Jan. 20, 2009 9:36 a.m. fiat22turbo SuperDork

    ....and I thought the political threads sucked!

    You know, if this group of monkey's keeps pounding on those keys we may yet solve all the world's problems, before dinner.

  • Chris_V

    Jan. 20, 2009 9:37 a.m. Chris_V SuperDork

    Hmm. Americans are fat and lazy. They can't drive. They shop at Wal Mart. They watch American Idol and make celebrities out of people like Paris Hilton. They are the butt of jokes worldwide. Everyone here talks bout how people are idiots. They voted for Bush. They bought more house than they could afford. They go into ricdiculous amounts of debt, etc.

    And yet, if Americans choose a Camry over a GM car, they are suddenly mensa candidates and "informed consumers."

    Hmmm.

  • Bobzilla

    Jan. 20, 2009 9:44 a.m. Bobzilla Reader

    ^ You mean like "W" is both the stupidest person on the planet AND the mastermind behind the world's greatest coverups at the same time?

  • 4cylndrfury

    Jan. 20, 2009 9:45 a.m. 4cylndrfury New Reader

    ^ Funniest E36 M3 ever!!!

  • John Brown

    Jan. 20, 2009 9:54 a.m. John Brown UltimaDork

    WAIT ONE MINUTE...

    American Idol is still on?

  • walterj

    Jan. 20, 2009 10:01 a.m. walterj HalfDork

    P71 wrote:

    walter, A rental car? Seriously? I can rent a base model Honda and hate it's guts too. It's a RENTAL! It's been abused and it's the lowest of base models! Go drive something that you'd actually buy (like a turbo manual trans GXP version)!

    It had 5k on the odo and was nicely optioned. It is a POS car. The Altima I had the week before had 17k on it, tight as a drum and ran well.

  • walterj

    Jan. 20, 2009 10:12 a.m. walterj HalfDork

    Bobzilla wrote:

    You know, from the haters I read a lot of generalizations. "ANY", "ALL", "MOST". . . but nothing to support or back it up. I mean, walterj here eve ADMITS he'd rather drive a falling apart, always busted Passat than a reliable GM. That's sad. You'd rather WALK than admit that they have a quality product that will do it's job day in and day out.

    Clarification: The Passat is not falling apart at all at 120k. It is tight, drives like a dream and has NO rattles. It is eronomically excellent and the interior quality is stolen directly from Audi... never seen one nicer at that price point. It has a chronic love for failing coil packs and other electronic gremlins that I tolerated for 6yrs.

    What I was driving at is that I would rather suffer 80% uptime in an otherwise quality automobile than drive a falling apart POS appliance car that drives like a little red wagon 100% of the time. The big 3 are in the appliance business except they aren't as reliable as 100% either making them mediocre appliances at that.

  • P71

    Jan. 20, 2009 10:15 a.m. P71 HalfDork

    The Hyundai Sonata I rented last year was a POS as well and reeked of tranny fluid. Doesn't mean all Hyundai's or even all Sonata's are crap. In fact a coworker has one of the same (new) generation that I had the opportunity to drive and it was quite nice. You cannot seriously base your opinion of an entire manufacturer (or group of manufacturers) on a single abused rental car.

    Just a note for the minority calling shenanigans, I've owned an Acura, a Honda, 2 Datsuns, a Nissan, 4 Mitsubishis, and a Subaru, plus 3 Mazdas one of which I still have. I like all cars, I just have no respect for people who bash on companies with no basis.

  • P71

    Jan. 20, 2009 10:19 a.m. P71 HalfDork

    So a POS VW that was in the shop 20% of the time for the exact same problem every time is a "quality automobile" yet the GM that cost less and ran 100% of the time is a "falling apart POS appliance"? Do you not see what's wrong with that statement?

    You're saying you'd rather sit in something that was expensive and deal with loads of mechanical failures than drive something that never failed at it's intended purpose because it felt cheap?

  • walterj

    Jan. 20, 2009 10:32 a.m. walterj HalfDork

    P71 wrote: You cannot seriously base your opinion of an entire manufacturer (or group of manufacturers) on a single abused rental car.

    The word "abused" does not cover cheap plastic, dinky switch gear and bad ergonomics. The car is a POS on many levels and having rented a car every other week for the past 2yrs... I can say that if that is what 5k of abuse does to a Solstice then it is a bigger piece of E36 M3 than a Focus which is a huge POS comared to an Altima.

    Hyundai was synonymous with E36 M3 for years but has made the kind of great strides in all aspects of design and build quality that the big 3 SHOULD be making. (even if they do ruthlessly copy others...) They are a better argument against Detroit than for them. They have shown that they do get "it".

  • walterj

    Jan. 20, 2009 10:40 a.m. walterj HalfDork

    P71 wrote:

    You're saying you'd rather sit in something that was expensive and deal with loads of mechanical failures than drive something that never failed at it's intended purpose because it felt cheap?

    Yeah. I'd rather that when I drive, the car be a pleasure to drive. If that occasionally inconveniences me - then so be it. Life is too short for crappy cars and cheap beer.

    PS: The Passat was the only late model car I've ever had that was unreliable. In 5 BMWs, an Acura, a Mitsubishi and a Grand Am. The Grand Am was a POS.

  • Datsun1500

    Jan. 20, 2009 10:47 a.m. Datsun1500 HalfDork

    P71 wrote:

    Question. If it had been 10 years of imports doing you wrong (like say, my neighbor), would you not give them anymore of a chance? Honestly?

    If it was 10 years of crap imports, then I would not drive imports. Does you neighbor still drive imports?

    10 years of crap is 10 years of crap, I don't care who made it. I have owned many different brands of cars, I have had good luck with Honda, Toyota, Nissan, VW and Audi. I have had bad luck with GM, Ford, Dodge, and Isuzu (Geo). Therefore when I go to get another car it will be a Honda,Toyota,Nissan VW or Audi.

  • 16vCorey

    Jan. 20, 2009 10:53 a.m. 16vCorey SuperDork

    P71 wrote:

    So a POS VW that was in the shop 20% of the time for the exact same problem every time is a "quality automobile" yet the GM that cost less and ran 100% of the time is a "falling apart POS appliance"? Do you not see what's wrong with that statement?

    You're saying you'd rather sit in something that was expensive and deal with loads of mechanical failures than drive something that never failed at it's intended purpose because it felt cheap?

    I've tried to stay out of this, but now you're just sounding like a really dense fanboy troll. I'll start off by saying I love all auto makers, and daily drive a '96 Escort. I'm going to assume that you enjoy driving, since you're here. I really just can't understand how you can't understand what that other dude was trying to say. It was worth it to him to put up with a bit of inconvenience, and enjoy his driving experience. If you had a pair of shoes that didn't fit right, were kind of uncomfortable, and hurt your feet a bit and another pair that fit great and were super comfortable, but broke a shoelace once a month, which pair would you wear?

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