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  • P71

    Jan. 21, 2009 10:57 a.m. P71 HalfDork

    Again, legitimate data. Consumer Reports could say the sky is blue and most people wouldn't trust them anymore. Find somebody with credibility.

    The Business Week is OK, but it's not a car brand. That's theory, not actual data relevant to the topic.

    Don't even start with the bully, threats, and all that BS, You're the one that's been throwing out your online MBA, calling people fanboys, etc. If you want to be a part of the conversation talk about the topic, not the other people in the conversation.

  • ignorant

    Jan. 21, 2009 11:22 a.m. ignorant PowerDork

    heres your data http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/gm-and-toyota/6687/page1/

    brand equity at work.

    seems like all your arguments based on sales are now dead.

  • P71

    Jan. 21, 2009 11:26 a.m. P71 HalfDork

    That's worldwide, not in the US. In the US GM still outsells Toyota by nearly a million units. Have any US data?

  • 93celicaGT2

    Jan. 21, 2009 11:32 a.m. 93celicaGT2 Reader

    On the same vein... why ignore the tests that were posted earlier in the thread? Because that's what everyone seemed to do....

    At least we can both agree on a couple things:

    1) $40k is way too much for a pickup 2) Toyota sucks these days.

    And for that, i'll call you comrade and stop "badgering" you as i fear i've come across as, i'm afraid. I hate arguing on the internet unless someone is blatantly wrong, which you're not. Just different opinion.

  • ignorant

    Jan. 21, 2009 11:35 a.m. ignorant PowerDork

    P71 wrote:

    That's worldwide, not in the US. In the US GM still outsells Toyota by nearly a million units. Have any US data?

    irrelevant.

  • P71

    Jan. 21, 2009 11:37 a.m. P71 HalfDork

    I definitely agree with your two points!

    Are you referring to the tests with all of the fully-loaded trucks? I didn't really pay attention to them (who the hell buys a loaded with luxury 1/2 ton then tries to tow anyways?) but the Toyota didn't win any categories that I saw. Oh well, like we said, it's too much for a truck anyways. Give me a $500 30-year old beater that will run forever.

  • P71

    Jan. 21, 2009 11:38 a.m. P71 HalfDork

    ignorant wrote:

    P71 wrote:

    That's worldwide, not in the US. In the US GM still outsells Toyota by nearly a million units. Have any US data?

    irrelevant.

    WHAT!???!? OK, now you're obviously just being difficult. You were talking about negative brand perception in the US and now US sales are irrelevant? Man you really are your username...

  • ignorant

    Jan. 21, 2009 11:44 a.m. ignorant PowerDork

    P71 wrote:

    ignorant wrote:

    P71 wrote:

    That's worldwide, not in the US. In the US GM still outsells Toyota by nearly a million units. Have any US data?

    irrelevant.

    WHAT!???!? OK, now you're obviously just being difficult. You were talking about negative brand perception in the US and now US sales are irrelevant? Man you really are your username...

    If you notice.. the businessweek article was top world brands.........

    http://blogs.internetautoguide.com/6420934/industry-news/toyota-nissan-honda-get-n...

    also.. no bailouts for japan car makers please get your facts straight.

  • Bobzilla

    Jan. 21, 2009 11:44 a.m. Bobzilla Reader

    I mean, if you really want me to run off into a rant, I could go on with the main problems of Corporate America, but I won't.

    Again, people are not buying off data and fact, they're buying by brand. Why else would Acura/Lexus/Infiniti even BE in business? Polo, Ralph Lauren...they wouldn't stay in business. THey don't sell a better product, they sell a name.

    That's all toyoduh and honduh are at this point, a NAME. They are doing th same thing that GM/Ford/Chrysler did in the 80/90's, let quality slide, churn out tons of cruddy product, sell it for too much money on name alone. The sad part, is that no one even seems to notice, nor care. But those same people will bash the domestics for a car they bought used, 12 years ago that was a piece of crap.

  • ignorant

    Jan. 21, 2009 11:47 a.m. ignorant PowerDork

    derekshannon wrote:

    P71 wrote:

    You're the one that's been throwing out your online MBA,

    Seriously. If I see yet ANOTHER link to those MBA sites I'm going to throw up.

    Enough already, I'm fairly certain no one cares. Time for some new material.

    I'm sorry if I believe that the information on that webpage is solid and available free of charge. I was hoping to help some of you guys out with some learning, so maybe you don't have to spend a billion dollars on school like I did.

    repeat it is not a school or service.. just some good articles and info on the web...

  • Bobzilla

    Jan. 21, 2009 11:50 a.m. Bobzilla Reader

    I just helped the wife get her master's degree. this past summer. I say helped, but in reality did over half the work. Master's degrees' are an absolute JOKE. I swear, I think I lost IQ points reading half that crap. . .

    EDIT: I gotta pay more attention to what I type!

  • 93celicaGT2

    Jan. 21, 2009 12:18 p.m. 93celicaGT2 Reader

    P71 wrote:

    I definitely agree with your two points!

    Are you referring to the tests with all of the fully-loaded trucks? I didn't really pay attention to them (who the hell buys a loaded with luxury 1/2 ton then tries to tow anyways?) but the Toyota didn't win any categories that I saw. Oh well, like we said, it's too much for a truck anyways. Give me a $500 30-year old beater that will run forever.

    Yeah, i'm referring to those tests lol.... Toyota won the towing quarter mile, dyno test, braking, and some other things.

    I think i've spent less on ALL of my cars combined including purchase price that i've ever owned than one of those trucks.

    Which is sad. I've had like.... 20 cars.

  • Bobzilla

    Jan. 21, 2009 12:20 p.m. Bobzilla Reader

    I think the last 3 new vehicles we've purchased were less than one of those. . .a 2001 Suzuki GV ($8k after tradein), 2002 Hyundai Elantra ($12.5k) and our GMC Crew ($19k out the door). . . then the $2k Accent and the pair of Swifts for $2k. . .

    Yep. those are "trucks" for tards.

  • 93celicaGT2

    Jan. 21, 2009 12:27 p.m. 93celicaGT2 Reader

    On the flip side... i've never bought a new car.

    1) I dont feel like going in debt

    2) I don't like getting raped by depreciation

    3) I don't really like any of them

    4) I will not do my part to support today's automakers. Mazda would probably be my only financially feasible exception.

    All this crap about bailouts etc doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'll still buy used for peanuts, thanks. I'll still work on my own cars.

    I had some guy in Autozone get on my case at the parts counter for "Not supporting your country by buying american." I mean... what? Did you think i was old enough to buy my 1992 Celica GT brand new? Back in 1992?

    If i go out and buy an American car today, it'll be a 1g Neon or another Escort GT. How is that going to help the Big Three?

    The most i've ever paid for a vehicle was $3k. Tie for first place between a 1993 Range Rover County LWB, and a 1993 BMW 325i.

    My current three cars were purchased for a grand total of $1950, and they needed nothing more than normal minor wear and tear attention. That wouldn't even get me a DOWNPAYMENT on any of these trucks, or even really anything, for that matter.

    Half a downpayment for an overpriced vehicle, or 3 running reliable cars? Hrmmmmm.... TOUGH!!!

  • P71

    Jan. 21, 2009 12:31 p.m. P71 HalfDork

    You're preaching to the choir man! I was trying to new car shop and got fed up and bought the P71 with half of my down payment. Hell I traded an engine for my RX-7! Car payments and depreciation suck. Well, depreciation doesn't suck if you're aren't the one paying for it. I can't wait to pick up an 05/06 GTO for under $10K...

  • Bobzilla

    Jan. 21, 2009 12:35 p.m. Bobzilla Reader

    Having a new car with a warranty is nice. Knowing that you can go anywhere without the slightest hesitation, knowing that if anythign is going to safely get you where you want to go it will. But, to buy new every few years is retarded and jut not money smart. We buy, run them into the ground and when they lose their dependability chuck 'em and buy a new one.

    The Elantra I have has 102k miles. Purchased it new with 11 miles on the odo, 4 of those I put on during the test drive. HAd 100k miles covered under warranty. Used ita couple times on piddly crap. Plan on running it another 100K before it gets replaced with a new one. Truck, well let's say 350k is the number we're shooting for.

  • 93celicaGT2

    Jan. 21, 2009 12:35 p.m. 93celicaGT2 Reader

    P71 wrote:

    You're preaching to the choir man! I was trying to new car shop and got fed up and bought the P71 with half of my down payment. Hell I traded an engine for my RX-7! Car payments and depreciation suck. Well, depreciation doesn't suck if you're aren't the one paying for it. I can't wait to pick up an 05/06 GTO for under $10K...

    OH yeah.... i forgot about the Goat. I'll take one of those, too.

  • P71

    Jan. 21, 2009 12:39 p.m. P71 HalfDork

    My experience with warranties is they're not worth the paper they're printed on, no matter what they're for! I'll stick with at least 1 year old and half price please!

    I paid more for my damn couch then I did for my car. Of course I do use the couch more, and it's really comfy, and it came with a loveseat and some tables, but that's beside the point!

  • 93celicaGT2

    Jan. 21, 2009 12:39 p.m. 93celicaGT2 Reader

    Bobzilla wrote:

    Having a new car with a warranty is nice. Knowing that you can go anywhere without the slightest hesitation, knowing that if anythign is going to safely get you where you want to go it will. But, to buy new every few years is retarded and jut not money smart. We buy, run them into the ground and when they lose their dependability chuck 'em and buy a new one.

    The Elantra I have has 102k miles. Purchased it new with 11 miles on the odo, 4 of those I put on during the test drive. HAd 100k miles covered under warranty. Used ita couple times on piddly crap. Plan on running it another 100K before it gets replaced with a new one. Truck, well let's say 350k is the number we're shooting for.

    I'll agree with you, definitely. But unfortunately, the majority of my driving at this point in my life is the 15 miles to work, 15 miles back home every day. If one of them breaks down, i get it towed back to the house, i grab another car, and try again!

    And i just have to stay maybe 2 hours late at work. Hasn't happened yet, and i don't anticipate it happening, to be honest.

    I will probably keep something 5sfe-powered around for the next decade or so. I haven't experienced a motor this reliable under abuse.

    If i was doing cross country driving a lot again, then i'd probably reconsider, or at least buy a NEWER used car for more money. Definitely something comfier. But for my purposes, the warranty is moot. With two huge self service yards within 30 minutes of me, no matter what goes wrong with any of my cars, if i have $200 and a weekend, i can fix it.

  • P71

    Jan. 21, 2009 12:42 p.m. P71 HalfDork

    There's no better warranty than a U-Pull-It and a toolbox. Elbow grease is free you know

  • Bobzilla

    Jan. 21, 2009 12:45 p.m. Bobzilla Reader

    P71 wrote:

    My experience with warranties is they're not worth the paper they're printed on, no matter what they're for! I'll stick with at least 1 year old and half price please!

    I paid more for my damn couch then I did for my car. Of course I do use the couch more, and it's really comfy, and it came with a loveseat and some tables, but that's beside the point!

    Aftermarket warranties that you pay for? Yep. Manufacturer's warranties? Nope.

    Besides, the car I needed to get away from a Sonoma (planned on kids at that time) with 17% interest. And it's aid for itself over time. The truck, well it was 0% apr and has had positive equity since the day we drove it home.

    Wife's family is spread from Tucson to Dallas, to Orlando and soon NJ. We usually bring our 4-legged kids with us so a good car that we can hop in and go is important. Plus, the wife drives 75 miles a day, I drive 60. Having a newer car is nice. Keeps me from working as hard. And yes, with the exception of warranty work, EVERYTHING else I have done, including tires.

  • Chris_V

    Jan. 21, 2009 12:49 p.m. Chris_V SuperDork

    I buy what I like and what I can afford. Most of the time, that's used, but some of the time it's new. Sometimes I simly LIKE the fact that I've owned the car since it has less than 5 miles on it, and know every mile that was put on it. I like the fact that if something goes wrong I don't HAVE to be the one to wrench on it. Yeah, I can, and yeah, a lot of times it's fun. But it isn't always fun, and I'd like to leave that for my hobby cars. If I HAVE to work on a car just to make it to the office, that makes wrenching on the hobby cars less fun.

    I've gotten cars for free, and daily drove cars that only cost me $100 to buy. So what? Doing that doesn't necesarily make you a better person than the person that spent more to get what THEY wanted.

    Your three cars cost you less than 2 grand total. My current daily driver 740iL cost me $7500 to buy, and I've put a couple grand into it in repairs and custom modifications. Am I a worse/stupider person (as the tone of your post implies) for having spent so much?

    I thoroughly enjoyed being the first owner of my SVT Contour back in '99, and it served me well for the three years I had it. I bought it because I wanted it and could afford it. I have no regrets about owning it, nor moving on to something else later. I didn't find it overpriced just because it was new.

  • 93celicaGT2

    Jan. 21, 2009 12:57 p.m. 93celicaGT2 Reader

    Chris_V wrote:

    I buy what I like and what I can afford. Most of the time, that's used, but some of the time it's new. Sometimes I simly LIKE the fact that I've owned the car since it has less than 5 miles on it, and know every mile that was put on it. I like the fact that if something goes wrong I don't HAVE to be the one to wrench on it. Yeah, I can, and yeah, a lot of times it's fun. But it isn't always fun, and I'd like to leave that for my hobby cars. If I HAVE to work on a car just to make it to the office, that makes wrenching on the hobby cars less fun.

    I've gotten cars for free, and daily drove cars that only cost me $100 to buy. So what? Doing that doesn't necesarily make you a better person than the person that spent more to get what THEY wanted.

    Your three cars cost you less than 2 grand total. My current daily driver 740iL cost me $7500 to buy, and I've put a couple grand into it in repairs and custom modifications. Am I a worse/stupider person (as the tone of your post implies) for having spent so much?

    I thoroughly enjoyed being the first owner of my SVT Contour back in '99, and it served me well for the three years I had it. I bought it because I wanted it and could afford it. I have no regrets about owning it, nor moving on to something else later. I didn't find it overpriced just because it was new.

    I'm not talking down to anyone that buys new.... if you read the whole thread, my main point is that you buy what you want, if it's worth it to you.

    I want to buy a new Tundra. Call me dumb, call me whatever. But i WANT a new 5.7 loaded Tundra. Because its awesome and ridiculous on so many levels.

    But i won't. Because it's not worth it to me, and it's a bit beyond my comfy financial means.

    I have a simple recipe for what i want, one that encompasses cars from $500 (or less) to the moon.

    1) Fun

    2) reasonably light

    3) 5/6 speed STICK. No flappy paddles.

    4) It's a CAR. Not an appliance. I don't want to feel like i'm driving my living room. I want to FEEL the road. I want to HEAR the car, i want SIMPLE easy to reach, ergonomic controls. I couldn't care less if it was front, rear, or awd. If i DRIVE it rather than RIDE it, it's cool. Celicas. Mr2s. Hondas. BMWs. Miatas. RWD nissans. RX7s. RX8 (DO WANT), etc...

    5) If it's a truck, it better feel like a TRUCK. Bouncy, torquey, unrefined, and reliable.

    The SVT Contour you mentioned would fit the bill pretty perfectly, and then some. I love those cars.

  • ignorant

    Jan. 21, 2009 12:59 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

    the only aftermarket warranty i ever used that was worthwhile was on a maytag fridge..

    maytag isn't what it used to be my friend...

    I never buy extended warranties, except on appliances. For some reason no matter what I buy, they break and I never have the time to fix them myself. And icemakers... Planned obsolescence.

  • ignorant

    Jan. 21, 2009 1:04 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

    93celicaGT2 wrote:

    Bouncy, torquey, unrefined, and reliable.

    Are you talking about a vehicle or a girlfriend?

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