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Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy HalfDork
5/24/20 12:58 p.m.

In reply to yupididit :

Thank you for clarifying that. I apologize for misunderstanding the contexts of your post. To be honest, I’ve reread it many times. While I take you at your word, to me, your explanation still doesn’t match the words you chose. Your reply suggests that I missed the obvious and failed to read everything. My hats off to Aircooled to figuring it out, but your words were not as clear as you think they were. Here is your quote, I added in bold what would have helped me tremendously...

My point of view and me just being honest:

Many people feel Being a white heterosexual male (WHM to save typing), throughout the past 1000+ years or so the WHM has oppressed murdered colonized and waged terror on most of the world...

 

 

Had those words been included, I never would have replied. I know many people feel that way. I responded to you, because I thought you were conveying your personal feelings. I actually started writing a reply that night, but deleted it. 

Type Q
Type Q SuperDork
5/24/20 1:55 p.m.

I grew up in a predominantly Black, middle-class neighborhood that bordered a ghetto. Ethnically, I am very white, northern European. From an early age, all the issues , problems, feelings and lack of understanding was my daily reality. Being reasonably smart and observant I wanted to understand what was happening and how to change it.  I experienced first hand how different ethnic groups get treated in the US and other parts of the world. I talked to many different people and studied history. 

 

After decades on this planet here is the way I have been able to make sense out of it. In order to mistreat, exploit, wage war or abuse another human being, you have to see them as something less than human, and/or deserving of whatever mistreatment you are participating in.  Forcibly capturing human being, transporting them against their will to the other side of the world, and forcing them work for your selfish benefit is a Horrendous and Evil thing to do. To justify propagating this kind of injustice, you have to create negative beliefs about who those are and why they deserve it. 

 

That is Racism is; Beliefs to justify, abusing, ignoring, neglecting, and feeling artificially superior to fellow humans.

 

It was weaved into every thread of American culture so people do not have to face the pain they cause. It was done so well that we still have it now. It is everywhere. We so used to it, unless you on the receiving end, it is easy to not see.

 

 

Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy HalfDork
5/24/20 1:57 p.m.

One of the hardest conversations to have as a black person is to explain or try to communicate our pain and experiences. Often, the other person gets defensive because they feel attacked or guilty or what ever it is. And usually they flip it and reverse it and tell you how you've hurt them or offended them for what you did while trying to communicate 400ish years of pain and suffrage. What kind of E36 M3 is that? Makes you want to give up. It is extremely difficult to articulate for many reasons. 

I think I can help you with this. This is my point of view, based on my life experiences,  and the same view shared by many others, but these are my words. Being a white person today is like walking on egg shells. I am often at a disadvantage when a dispute occurs with anyone that is not a white male. I have been accused of racism numerous times where none existed. I will tell you, being falsely accused of something one is passionate about is hurtful. That’s not bullE36 M3. Not 400 years of pain and suffrage hurtful, but hurtful in the here and now. It’s also very harmful. Because real racism most certainly exists. Fake accusations don’t help, and they desensitize people to the real problems. Get unfairly called a racist enough times, and it becomes harder to take other claims seriously. Which is a horrible, but inevitable result. 

 

Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy HalfDork
5/24/20 2:45 p.m.

In reply to yupididit :

I do however feel the white people (its ok to say white people) should be held accountable for correcting all the atrocious E36 M3 that's happened in this country. And it is your responsibility as Americans to undo systematic racism. Not personally being racist isn't enough. The oppressed minority cannot do it without your continued help. I even stated what I think that looks like:

Be understanding, spread love, seek knowledge vs staying ignorant, do not dismiss ones pain and experience from racism, actively shut down any and all racism that you see, and do your part in deconstructing the systemic racism that still in place. 

 If you don't like that I said it then that's where our differences are. And that's okay. I'm not sorry for feeling that way. And no hard feelings towards you. Be well. 

Okay, I’m trying here. I started this quote with your words “I do however feel...” Just making sure I’m not taking this out of context, that I should know that this is only your perception- you quoted yourself on the word perception even though you never used the word previously. If we are going to start quoting words that we thought but didn’t write, this is going to get very complicated. laugh

 

I believe I understand what you are saying. You don’t need to say white people. Replace it with Americans, and your message will be heard more clearly. White people makes many people feel defensive. Most white people have zero ties to the previous atrocities other than the color of their skin. The vast supermajority of white people have been fighting for equality for a long time. Most white privilege cards have long expired. Most bastions of systemic racism have been dismantled. I know most isn’t all, but it’s getting there. The closer we get there, the more opposition there will be. The challenge is that it won’t be the open, ignorant opposition. It will be opposition under the cover of allies. There is a lot of power and money involved in treating the disease of racism, and some don’t want a cure. 

 

yupididit
yupididit UberDork
5/24/20 3:00 p.m.

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

I think it's best you and I do not discuss this topic with each other anymore. Have a good memorial day weekend. 

yupididit
yupididit UberDork
5/24/20 3:01 p.m.
aircooled said:
Purple Frog (Forum Supporter) said:

...We had something like 14 VWs in the extended family by 1970.  But as time went on we discovered that water-cooled vehicles had many practical advantages, and we migrated away from 3,000 mile valve adjustments...


OK..... now I'm offended!  You sir are an issue with coolantism!

 

cheeky

 

I have an issue with rust crying

yupididit
yupididit UberDork
5/24/20 3:03 p.m.
aircooled said:

Yes, thanks for your contribution.

I was feeling a bit guilty for drawing you into that answer.  I VERY much appreciate your honesty on this.

 

I appreciate you, thank you

Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy HalfDork
5/24/20 3:54 p.m.

In reply to yupididit :

 

 

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

I think it's best you and I do not discuss this topic with each other anymore. Have a good memorial day weekend. 

Well I’m sorry that you feel that way. I think we agree on more than we disagree, but you are probably right, this is not a topic that is easily discussed in this forum. Thank you for your insight and for sharing your perspective. 

 Have a good weekend. 

Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón)
Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) MegaDork
5/24/20 4:02 p.m.
Boost_Crazy said:

You don’t need to say white people. Replace it with Americans, and your message will be heard more clearly. White people makes many people feel defensive. Most white people have zero ties to the previous atrocities other than the color of their skin. The vast supermajority of white people have been fighting for equality for a long time. Most white privilege cards have long expired. Most bastions of systemic racism have been dismantled. I know most isn’t all, but it’s getting there. 

 

Maybe things out in California are going better than elsewhere. Come spend some time in the SouthEast. Having moved down here from New York a number of years ago, the fact that racism was alive and well was eye opening. Please read the links I posted a a while back regarding voting districts. Institutional racism is still happening purposefully. 

I'd typed a lot more than that here, but I dialed it back. It's a very complicated subject and I'm nowhere near an expert on it, and people way smarter and more versed in the subject still get tripped up in the nuances of it. I'm really not qualified to get into it too deeply, but facts are facts, and I'll speak to the ones I'm clear about.

 

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter)
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/24/20 6:43 p.m.

In reply to Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) :

Our move from IL to MS was similar. While I'm sure I knew people back in IL who had racist thoughts or ideals, I very rarely ever heard them voiced. Down here you just need to read the comments on almost any news post - the racism is often blatant and overt. 

Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón)
Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) MegaDork
5/24/20 7:02 p.m.

In reply to Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) :

It's easy to wave it away when you can go: I'm not, my friends aren't, our community is (or seems) integrated and I don't see it on the news very often.

It's another thing when you hear it coming from people's mouths or see the struggles first hand. 

docwyte
docwyte UberDork
5/24/20 7:12 p.m.

Racism is everywhere, I've experienced it personally in the Northeast and Midwest.  So far the West has been good for me and I don't spend enough time in the South to comment but that region historically isn't great. 

While it's far easier to discriminate against groups that look different than you, there's plenty of white on white discrimination as well.  Whether that's religious, socio economic etc.

Plainly put, people are tribal and are more than jerks to those outside their tribe...

chandler
chandler PowerDork
5/25/20 5:49 a.m.

I'm disgusted by both racism and sexism but honestly in this thread I'm disgusted by the word "constant". I'm seeing one ad and a bunch of call backs to the car being the idea of a psycho megalomaniac 80 years ago. They hired a company to make an ad that was fairly lighthearted but does have a dark undertone. Somehow no one saw this and green lighted it. The people saying they'd never buy from them again probably never bought from them in the first place. Ads sell product, no company in their right mind would intentionally damage that conduit. 
 

As a country we are still way messed up in our approach to racism and sexism, "we done fixed that already and now we ignore it" is the current train of thought. We only know it's there, we are so prejudiced as humans; not just on sex or race but on hundreds of little things that are products of our upbringing that we can't even see where we are. I disappoint myself sometimes with the way I think about stuff and I consider myself an open minded person. We aren't, none of us are.

mfennell
mfennell Reader
5/25/20 8:20 a.m.

My brother, sister-in-law, and I are all serious cyclists.  One day my brother or I joked what 'jerks' road cyclists are.  SIL piped up "no way, roadies are great".  Greg and I laughed.   Yes, they're really nice to pretty, fit women on bikes.

As silly as it is, that little exchanged opened my eyes a little.  As a white male (a tall one at that, my wife points out), I can make all kinds of assumptions about the outcome of any experience.  Forgot to put something on the conveyor at the market?  It's just assumed I forgot.   Got pulled over by the cops?  "Heheh, oh man, what did I do?"  Zero expectation of things going sideways.  I used to keep track of all the tickets I talked my way out of when I was younger.  10?  I definitely don't "walk around on eggshells" as another poster put it.  I walk around like I own the place.  

Ironically, only a few generations ago my own ethnicity (Irish) would have been a burden.

 

* For the record, all my riding buddies are really awesome guys (and one gal) but we are definitely not an open group.  My four broken ribs last summer came from a fit but inexperienced rider causing a multi-rider crash in a paceline at 28mph.

 

OHSCrifle
OHSCrifle SuperDork
5/25/20 11:57 a.m.

When I left the small town I grew up in to attend college, I was caught off guard by a lot of things. I had never met a Jew and my home town was about as diverse as Hilton Head Island (and that's not much). So the liberal arts "core" classes I had to take as part of architecture school were extremely unfamiliar to my dumb ass. But they resonated. 

 

I was next caught off guard when I moved to SC at age 26 and heard a contractor say to me - "hey do me a favor and tell that #%*€ to grab a shovel and help James dig up that broken sprinkler pipe". I had literally never heard the word outside of a punch line to jokes that now make me cringe... and he felt comfortable enough to say it to me on the day we met. 

 

After a few years living there I also learned that it was common for neighbors of "homes for sale" to fly a rebel flag to discourage potential buyers. A lot of people think nothing of it... I think that's berkeleyed up. 
 

Despite both of those things, I still believe that the rust belt is more racist than the southeast. I'm not trying to convince anyone but I believe it's true. 
 

The fact is, there is racism everywhere. The more you call it out the better. 
 

I appreciate that this has been a civilized discussion and respectful - despite some differences of opinion. I commend everyone for that. It's an important conversation.
 


 

 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
5/25/20 12:17 p.m.

While we are still discussing this is a reasonable manner.  I would like to submit an observation:

The use of the phrase White Privilege is somewhat inappropriate and counter productive.

Why?, well the "issue" we are worried about is not really Privilege.  It's not like a white person (unless they are full blown small mustache racist) see's another white person and says to themselves "hey, he's a whitey, I shall give him a discount..." etc. The biggest (in scope) issue is that they say "that person does not look like me, so I shall not give or do this for them, or I shall call them this...." etc.   You are highlighting the wrong end of the issue.

It assumes the wrong solution:  Based on the phrase, the solution would be, well, just stop "privilaging" white people, problem solved... nope.

It also implies White people are the only issue.  Clearly other colors have issues with people that are not of their color (obviously this is in smaller numbers in the US, but it's still the same issue").  This also creates an immediate defensive response from those who are not part of the problem.

As far as dealing with the small mustache racist.  Such things will have no affect on them anyway and will only rile them up. They need to be dealt with in other ways (camps would be nicely ironic devil).

To be clear.  Not being disadvantaged is clearly a privilege, I just think it sends the wrong message and implies the wrong solution.

Am I being irrational with this?

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
5/25/20 12:59 p.m.

I've been following closely. I'm proud that we're able to have this difficult conversation over several days, and still be able to accept each other.

I can only imagine how difficult it is to be the one person to share his perspective like yupididit. That takes a lot of strength, because even in a group like this where we try to listen and understand each other, the topic can make us uncomfortable. 

Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón)
Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) MegaDork
5/26/20 12:16 a.m.
aircooled said:

The use of the phrase White Privilege is somewhat inappropriate and counter productive.

Why?, well the "issue" we are worried about is not really Privilege.  It's not like a white person (unless they are full blown small mustache racist) see's another white person and says to themselves "hey, he's a whitey, I shall give him a discount..." etc.

Am I being irrational with this?

I don't think you're being irrational. I do think you might not be aware of all of the factors involved or you're not parsing what white privilege really is. White Privilege simply means that your skin color, name, manner of speech and other factors aren't usually counted against you. 

 Here is an example of white privilege, though I don't think it is directly related to the U.S.A:

Multiple applications are submitted for a job with identical qualifications. Some applications are rejected simply because the name doesn't match what is considered the "default cultural standard."

Wait, you say: THAT'S ILLEGAL IN THE USA!  Yes, it is. Good luck proving it, though.

We can also argue that there are other factors involved in the process, but sometime it really is as simple as: This person's name doesn't sound like something a white person would have, they're never even getting an interview. 

Like I said before, the manifestations of racism have become more subtle than they were in the past. That just makes them insidious and easy to dismiss. Heck, if people believe it isn't even happening, it's very easy to keep doing it.
 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
5/26/20 8:37 a.m.
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) :

Our move from IL to MS was similar. While I'm sure I knew people back in IL who had racist thoughts or ideals, I very rarely ever heard them voiced. Down here you just need to read the comments on almost any news post - the racism is often blatant and overt. 

My experience is similar  DC Metro area (pretty diverse) to NC.  Here in NC its not noticeable in my circle of friends/coworkers (also quite diverse, oddly enough), but in other areas its out there and blatant.  Confederate flags many places, horrible internet comments, etc.  Here (and many places I imagine) the divide is generally  a rural / urban divide.

I once had an experience similar to what was posted earlier where someone just casually referred to another employee as "the N***** who works in shipping".  I was blown away.  I am still ashamed of myself for not speaking up about it then.

 

 

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
5/26/20 10:06 a.m.
ProDarwin said:
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) :

Our move from IL to MS was similar. While I'm sure I knew people back in IL who had racist thoughts or ideals, I very rarely ever heard them voiced. Down here you just need to read the comments on almost any news post - the racism is often blatant and overt. 

My experience is similar  DC Metro area (pretty diverse) to NC.  Here in NC its not noticeable in my circle of friends/coworkers (also quite diverse, oddly enough), but in other areas its out there and blatant.  Confederate flags many places, horrible internet comments, etc.  Here (and many places I imagine) the divide is generally  a rural / urban divide.

I agree it is more rural/urban divide. I saw more racism growing up in rural Kentucky then when I moved down to a city in Alabama between confederate flags, under the breath comments and just straight racism. The worst was in a high school soccer game when a defender said some just god awful things to our African American striker at a corner. I got the defender back later with a flying two foot tackle and made sure to tell him what it was for.

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) Dork
5/26/20 10:07 a.m.

This discussion is a tough one, and I'm glad yupididit has been extremely patient and has shared his perspective. 

This sums it up for me: Having privilege does not mean that an individual is immune to life’s hardships, but it does mean having an unearned benefit or advantage one receives in society by nature of their identity. (clip from https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/why-its-important-to-think-about-privilege-and-why/)

The fact that you don't need to think about it means that you already are enjoying it. It isn't ONE things it's a lot of tiny, tiny things that add up. A friend of mine explained it to me in a way that's easy to understand: as a white male I may be nervous when I get pulled over, but I'm not AFRAID. That's a powerful difference, IMO and minimizing that difference in experience that another may have is really what the issue is. Try to listen to eachother (here is better than other places luckily) and learn from those different from us and what it really takes to walk a day in their shoes. 

As far as the OP and VW, not surprised that someone slipped on this, and it will happen again to another company. It will be less likely to happen to a company with a more diverse workforce. 

mr2s2000elise
mr2s2000elise SuperDork
5/26/20 11:44 a.m.
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

 

As far as the OP and VW, not surprised that someone slipped on this, and it will happen again to another company. It will be less likely to happen to a company with a more diverse workforce. 

Thanks Paul. I am sure it will happen to other companies as well.

 

However, with these mistakes happening in VW at 2017, 2019, 2020, you would think there would be some bigger changes made there, or more oversight, to make sure these things are corrected in the future, and it isn't a yearly occurrence. 

One can only hope for the best.

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) UltimaDork
5/26/20 12:03 p.m.

About 10 years ago the company I work for previewed some up coming ads at an employee meeting.  They were trying to be funny by stereotyping different races.  The employees stood up and said it wasn't right.  To the companies credit those ads never aired afaik.  It does take a culture willing to stand up and say something.  To many people are afraid of confrontation and hope it'll go away.  It won't just go away until we make it go away.

yupididit
yupididit UberDork
5/26/20 2:19 p.m.

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

 

 

Afraid is very well the feeling I get... If you haven't watched this video, I ask that you do. 

 

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/26/20 2:39 p.m.

Remember that a significant part of "priviledge" is having the priviledge of being totally unaware of the injustices happening all around you.

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