Learn me: Denver, CO

Once again I turn to my most knowledgeable group of friends...

It seems, by some mysterious means, that Denver, Colorado is now in the lead for my next move. Some of you have already provided invaluable information on other areas of the country and I have been busy visiting potential cities lately. While it certainly doesn't score 100% by my metrics it will probably work best for my entire family unit of 1 wife and 1 young child.

So, I need a crash course in the city, state, region, etc. since this will be all new to me and it will be happening soon. We don't waste time but also are in no real rush to leave New Jersey... probably 2-3 months from now?

We've been there several times and know the broad strokes but lack any specific knowledge of the key details. I am eager to hear about anything that any residents / natives feel important, so please speak up if you have something to say.

I'm thinking about starting a rental lease on June 1 and being moved in by June 30. Currently either hiring a comprehensive moving company or using a Pods type service. Details of the logistics are the key factor here as we are currently flexible but will quickly need to make a solid plan. Over the years I have done just about all types of move so it will mostly come down to timing and personal laziness. I'm putting the wife in charge of this but I am also looking for any input or tips...

Right now we are looking mostly in the Cherry Creek, Country Club, Cheeseman Park and City Park neighborhoods with the Cheeseman / Botanical Gardens area in the lead. We like the mix or residential with neighborhood businesses and walkable blocks. We will be renting a place and are planning on a 3 year stay to be evaluated over time. Our approximate budget is $2k / mo. rent and we need 2 bedrooms. It seems doable but I haven't ironed out details requirements other than a good area for a 3 year old and her stay at home dad.

Since I'll mostly be alone and have access to downtown nearby I will probably only take one car with me. The '05 Legacy GT is the better option so I think I will liquidate the '05 Grand Cherokee. The subie excells in mixed driving with power and comfort being strong points along with safety and awd. The Jeep is great for off roading but I don't forsee much of that in the future and therefore the thirsty v8, lifted up on all terrain tires is a bit of overkill for the exurbs... I'm concerned about the details of emissions testing and living with a modestly modified car out there. It will probably need to be shipped since I don't want to drive my daughter across the country; hopefully someone can refresh me on those details.

It will be a major cultural change for me and I am not entirely thrilled with the prospect but am staying optimistic and focusing on the positives (while asking about negatives, too). I always tend to read more than I write but will do my best to fill in answers and provide info.

Thank you!

Not to be a downer, but you may have a real struggle finding a 2 bedroom for $2k/month, particularly in the areas you list.  Those are extremely "hot" areas right now (some have been for years, really) and rents have been blasting through the roof for the past 5 years.

Denver area is growing like a weed as far as people moving in, with commensurate increases in traffic and people going to the "fun" stuff like skiing, biking etc. 

Denver isn't really much of a walking city and our mass transit sucks balls.  Living in the heart of Cherry Creek you can walk to restaurants, shops, etc.  They're taking out the grocery store for a condo building tho, so it'll only be Whole Foods down there.  However, you're going to pay dearly for that walking convenience.

I live in Centennial, about a 15 minute drive (clear roads for that!) from Cherry Creek.  I'm really close to pretty much everything, but can't walk to anything.  As you leave those areas and head south or east, you'll see rents go down. 

Are you firm on your need to be in those areas and walk to stuff?

I've been, but only for one night. My initial impression was that it was just OK. Moving from there just a few miles west towards the mountains suited my particular tastes way more. Just a thought if you want cheaper and less crowded, though I can't speak with authority.

Denver is a very cool place (I grew up in the suburbs, went to college in Golden). But doc is exactly right about rents in those areas. I think they have probably bought all the small houses and knocked them down to re-sell for 750k+

There is plenty of 4-wheeling in the areas around Denver though, and the car culture is really booming. Keep the jeep, everyone drives a subaru. Well, not that Jeeps are rare either...

There are however lots of other little "downtown" areas in the suburbs that are walking neighborhoods. You just have to look a bit harder for them.

In reply to docwyte :

I hear you about the rent, I have seen some nice places that were much more. It is just a number that my wife put out as a starting point, not a firm limit. Happily, we live far below our means and do not have much stuff or need much space. Definitely not firm on those areas, they are mostly examples of the type of place I liked best.

I really would prefer being in that kind of neighborhood or something suitable but not really outside of the 'city'. Downtown is tiny an not exactly my style but I do really enjoy the amenities that any decent city has to offer.

Everyone talks about how Denver is booming, becoming expensive and such a hot destination but I think they have a completely different frame of reference than I do. I understand that it is changing radically from what it used to be but I have lived in the most urban of areas in the biggest cities in the country so I'm used to the high costs and compromises. And the transit does suck but I am not trying to be another suburban slave to the traffic light as I transit from one parking lot to the next...

The whole foods is a major draw for me, I berkeleying love that store! Also the other stuff like that, too. Plus, that area does put me near my favorite cannabis boutique...

I really love the input and appreciate the straight info. For me I think that the location might be the most important factor so I can be flexible with other stuff... I think

tuna55 said:

...My initial impression was that it was just OK...

Word. I consider it a major compromise on my part... like european sports car type major...

Definitely want to be in or close to the city and not the other stuff

In reply to Robbie :

I have looked around a little bit in those 'burbs and liked Golden a lot especially since we are always open to another degree or two for the walls...

A big part of this is the airport situation. I should be clear that I need to stay near to and with easy access to the airport. The size and location of Denver airport means that I can be anywhere in the country within a couple hours but adding a commute in front of that could be a big problem. Multiple options from trains to uber and everything else as redundant backups are a major plus. Golden, for example, means that you pretty much must drive there and it is an hour away without any complications...

I have heard that 4 wheeling in the Jeep is a big thing out there but I just don't think it is my scene. I would still prefer to focus my limited driving ability on autocross and maybe rallycross? I'll admit that I might change my mind or regret it but I'm still leaning towards the Subie. The long roof and sleeper aspect are fun and I think it will be good enough for me to be able to handle a dirt road or two; not sure if I need a dedicated set of snow tires or not? I assume that my mild modifications are not a big deal on a well running and tuned car?

Thanks, I assumed there were some folks who know the area...

It's looking good that I'll be moving to CO this year too but I'll be primarily be living in Co. Springs and commuting the 1 day a week or so to Centennial.  I'll decide long term if I buy a 1 br. condo in the area based on my need to be in the office. 

Take a good look at the traffic flows and where you need to be on a regular basis. They don't always match with what you would think. 

The housing market there has a long history of boom/bust and it's really booming now so just something to keep in the back of mind. 

There is an annual tax on your car which is prorated based on age so just keep that in mind if you buy a new car. You may be over $1K to register it. 

They do have the airport train: https://www.denver.org/about-denver/transportation/airport-rail/ goes from downtown area. 

You'll drink a lot more water than you will ever realize there. I always have a bottle in hand while there. 

Mike

The registration fee on your car depends on the initial purchase price and the weight. It bottoms out at about $65/year, which is where most of my cars are. The most expensive is the Dodge 3/4 ton because of the weight.

You don't say what your mild modifications are, but as long as the OBD system is happy you shouldn't have any trouble with emissions. Keep in mind that you will see about a 15% power loss due to the altitude in Denver. That applies to both you and the car

Snow tires are a good idea. In fact, CO has a traction law that could see you fined if you're caught in the snow with inappropriate equipment. Besides, snow tires are like race tires for the winter. You want them. You will lose your Subaru in a parking lot, there are approximately one billion of them in CO.

I don't know Denver specifically, so I can't comment on the nice areas or the cost of living. It is clearly booming, though.

tb said:

Right now we are looking mostly in the Cherry Creek, Country Club, Cheeseman Park and City Park neighborhoods with the Cheeseman / Botanical Gardens area in the lead.

My BIL/SIL live right there.  Its a fantastic area.  But its $$$$$$$. 

What exactly are your wants for an area? Ive never lived in denver but the people that i know that have never said much good about it.

Also coming from someone that just bought a old victorian house and has a mortgage.......2k in rent sounds ridiculous, thats many times my mortgage.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Thanks, I knew that there was someone out there in the know about modified vehicles. I've upgraded the subie intake/turbo/exhaust and everything is happy with a Cobb tuner. No lights on the dash or anything obnoxious, it is my subtle and tasteful car.

I hear you about the power loss. Luckily, even with my health issues, I haven't had much of a problem out there myself and I do know how to reclaim those lost horses...

I need new tires on the subie anyway since it will be the family wagon in this scenario so I will have to think about that. My plan was a set of something Dry/Snow/Wet rated since I do not need to drive anywhere if the weather is so bad and I have a lot of experience in heavy snow. I would prefer two sets and that might be the best answer except then I need to haul around big bulky E36 M3 and store it somewhere... 

I once moved to central Massachusetts on 1 week notice and being a city dweller didn't have a car at the time... went right out and bought the requisite Outback wagon and looked just like everyone else. I can live with being common since people in the know drool over it and it is invisible to the authorities. 

In reply to ProDarwin :

Yeah, some numbers I see are quite large. Honestly, the most expensive areas are not the most attractive to me. The really, really pricey stuff seems to be in totally residential blocks insulated from the cooler stuff... not my style. Luckily, the stuff that catches my eye is on the lower end of the scale since I don't love the quiet, boring blocks of identical tidy lawns. 

I'll ask my boss about the numbers, that is her game. I suspect that $2k a month is based on something almost arbitrary to my mind...

In reply to Antihero :

Close to a major airport with access to the entire country and international connections. I know it sounds silly but that really is the most important issue. The only reason I don't just move to Chicago is that I have already done that and am looking for something new.

Other than that I want a safe area for my young daughter with a plethora of diverse options and activities. I'm into fine dining and high culture E36 M3.

I'm not in love with Denver itself, but it solves the main problem better than anywhere else. It will probably only be for a few years and there is enough good to make me accept it, plus I am amenable to bribes and my wife knows it. 

True story: I was there about a month ago and wanted a nice dinner so I took the advice from the concierge and headed out to the old, fancy, historic hotel downtown with a big name. Had a great meal, excellent food. More than one gentleman there was wearing a full on cowboy hat and the pointy toe boots made from some exotic animal... culture shock and that isn't easy with me...

Also note: I own several properties and have several rental units and stuff. I don't want to buy another property for any real reason because it is a pain in the ass and the details are boring. Wherever I wind up will not be permanent and will not impact me financially in any appreciable way so it is just a spot to stay for a little while.

Thanks again for all of the info, I appreciate it all.

I'm glad I just read up on their traction laws, local issues like that are always a pain to figure out when moving a few thousand miles away. Luckily, I will be just fine as I have grown quite fond of having 4 driven wheels and am part of this group that understands the tires are (supposed to be) the only part touching the road and sorta important!

The areas you want to live in aren't that convenient to get to the airport from.  Reality is the "hip" more urban areas of the city where you can walk to stuff are kinda buried.  Cherry Creek/City Park area means going down Colorado Blvd, depending on the time of day, that's a harsh ride, then having to slog I25 to I225 to the airport.  Not fun at peak hours, or if there's weather or an accident.

Yeah, we're not California or Chicago, but my house is worth almost double what I paid for it about ten years ago.  There's basically nothing to buy here under $400k unless you head way out on the Eastern Plains.

While we have the Buell Theatre and there is some culture/fine dining here, that's not really what I'd consider this towns forte.  This is cowboy/REI chic land.  Lots of outdoor activities...

You know you also described Dallas or Atlanta to a tee too. From DFW, you can get a lot of places including most of LATAM. 

Just something else to think of. 

In reply to docwyte :

Good info. I think that I have been lucky that I have never hit really bad traffic out there, or else I am pretty jaded at this point! I guess I liked it because of general proximity and options like being a quick trip to the train station if I need to audible due to gridlock... Will need to discuss this with my partner and possibly rethink the priorities and compromises.

While I joke around too much about flyover country, I really am eager to dive in and immerse myself in something new. I'm thrilled at all the great Mexican food in the area and sunny days + front range = breathtaking views.

I'm learning a lot, thanks!

In reply to bmw88rider :

Absolutely correct! Both of those places were high on our list and we have been to both several times. 

Atlanta is a nice area, but the city itself isn't all that great of a place and it is a long trip to the left coast when you start thinking about time zones needed to be managed. Very doable but I would probably wind up with too many cars and a prohibition against CL...

Dallas is still not crossed off. We visit often and have a lot of friends in the area. The culture is an even more major adjustment than almost anywhere for us... everything is very Texan around there. Much like the climate there, I like it but don't love it; I have certainly lived in worse places, though.

Thanks!

I moved from Philly to Denver back in 2010.  Still like Philly.  Still don't like Denver.  Denver's expensive, sprawly, and I don't partake in smoking activities (I have nothing against those that do, I just can't, too many issues with work and such to really consider it) that are popular there.  I lived on the east side of Littleton and it was nothing special at all.  At all.

Are you sure your rent budget is going to get you close to what you want?  I thought the area around Washington Park and the old downtown in Arvada both looked pretty cool to live in.  I wanted what you're talking about but due to rush, costs, and what was available I ended up in a big apartment complex like you would find anywhere.  

You want easy access to international flights so you're moving to the middle of the country?  But one of the most expensive cities?  Might as well do Kansas City for half the cost.  Me personally, I'm planning on going back to the Northeast when it makes sense for me, maybe back to CT or Philly or somewhere like that.

In reply to pres589 :

Yeah, this entire thing is one big compromise and I am not at all sure that I will like it in the end... I'd rather have a rough time doing something versus not making the attempt, though. Luckily, it seems that some of the alternative medication out there is effective for my nerve damage but that is not a huge deal since it also has side effects. I completely agree that it has a strange, sprawling, unfinished feel that displeases me on several levels... lacks coherent fabric. I will say though, I am not opposed to a big apartment building if it brings convenience and amenities.

I've done Kansas City pretty frequently for a few years in the past; it isn't even worth the half price. Plus the airport is a joke compared to Denver when it comes to selection and performance.

The flights issue is one are where I have done my homework and I know that will work for us. A perfect solution doesn't exist, just a series of more compromises.

Mostly, it sounds like I just need to up my rent budget by a little bit. Denver may be more expensive than it used to be but it is really very similar to Philly in overall cost of living and it almost certainly will not be a permanent stay.

Originally, I thought I would just stay near Philly and move out to the Main Line with a lawn and picket fence... but as nice as that sounds there are still compromises like living with the Philadelphia Airport a couple times a week...

MCI is indeed a turd.  Replacement can't come fast enough.  I don't think it'll help flight options but at least it won't be such a lame experience just being there.

My memory of rent costs are from seemingly a different time.  That said, Fish Town was about the same cost as Littleton, and I'd rather be in Fish Town.  Well, before hipsters found out about it, anyway.  

Here's the thing about KC vs. Denver; I don't care about skiing or any of that stuff.  If you take the mountains away from Denver you'd have Kansas City, basically.  I'm not saying that I didn't like riding my motorcycle up in the mountains when it was warmish out, they're not nothing, but I never really got the whole "it's just so great out here" feeling that I couldn't get elsewhere.  

I'll end this reply with a question; have you really looked at the areas that are convient-ish to DEN?  It's not that great.  I did actually use mass transit once to get from the airport to the south-central area of the metro where I was living and it took a long time, multiple forms of vehicle, etc.  It sounds like you have a decent idea of the ups & downs to the area and further research / time on the ground will help.  

p.s. would still pick Philly.  

The dirty secret of Denver is that it's not really in the mountains. You can see the mountains, and you can get there along with everyone else - but really it's in Kansas. I find all big cities to vary pretty dramatically depending on what neighborhood you live in. I don't know the names of the Denver hoods, but the area near S. Broadway and W Bayaud has a pretty cool feel to it.

There is a difference in the air, though. Every time I get off the plane when flying home, it feels so good.

In reply to pres589 :

I kinda agree that all things considered, I would rather be in Philadelphia... but I DO enjoy new places and new opportunities and I can probably turn this to my advantage, somehow. 

Also pretty much agree about the mountains. I enjoy nature and the ARE beautiful but nothing will magically enable me to ski or hike again so... shrug... maybe that feeling we are missing is just people getting light-headed?

I appreciate the insight and question. I have not looked around at adjacent areas because when home I want to be close to the urban center. I eat out a lot, got to shows and love all museums; Denver has a very decent coffee shop and diner scene and that suits me well, too.

This is a quick and dirty education but just what I need.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I find it really cool how the range just sits there on the horizon like a giant wall around the plain. That being said, actual traveling up into the mountains for real would be an infrequent event.

I know exactly how you feel about the air but for me it is more dense, humid and salty that feels like home... will have to up the vacation frequency is all!