Learn me. First cars.

G_Body_Man said:

Are they willing to learn how to wrench on their own cars? If I didn't do all my own wrenching I never could have owned a car in high school.

Here in Minnesota wrenching without a garage quickly gets frostbite and frozen fingers. Right now there is close to 2 feet of snow and ice on the ground.  More coming this afternoon and the rest of the week.  

Many of these kids are either Foster kids, kids of a single mom or other issues.  They would be lucky to have a screwdriver and a pair of pliers.  

Working for minimum wages $100 a week would be a great paycheck and likely come at the cost of grades.   

Some insights from a kid who grew up rural...

A car is not necessarily a requirement to get a job, even in the "sticks".  I grew up in the sticks.  My parents' house was on an acre lot- and that was the smallest lot in the neighborhood.  Corn grew across the street.  A guy owned 20 acres behind our house- and it was a pasture with horses.  Barns, by and large, outnumbered houses.  

When I was 14, I started mowing lawns.  Some of these, yes, my dad did drive me to- but others were neighbors I could walk the mower or ride the tractor to.  One guy was about a mile down the street, and I regularly just rode over there on the tractor.  Oh- and the tractor was mine, bought with my own money.  

When I turned 15 I got a job working for someone else.  There was a garden center a few miles away.  They pay wasn't great ($4.35 per hour back then, minimum wage) but it was close enough that I could ride my bicycle there.  I calculated the savings in doing that versus driving made any other employment option less attractive.  When I had to work late, I used hose clamps to mount a 'D' cell battery flashlight to the handlebars.  When cars came by, I'd dismount and go way off onto the shoulder, figuring they wouldn't be expecting a cyclist late at night on a country road.  

I didn't buy my first vehicle until I was 19.  

I worked most of the time when I was in high school, usually 16-20 hours per week (weekends) and 40 hours/ week during the summers.  Graduated with solid B+ grades.  

kazoospec said:

Unfortunately, the answer for a lot of kids seems to be that it isn't currently possible.  Buying the car is the last step, not the first.  Locally, the first is "pay your own driver's training".  Public schools don't do it around here, at all.   IIRC, my son's cost around $350.00. It's VERY difficult for children of limited income households to get beyond this hurdle alone.  Then they need to do a certain number of "practice driving hours", often in a family with limited access to vehicles to begin with, in order to get a driver's license.  Then they need to arrange insurance.  Unfortunately, in a small family, this means a teenager as a primary driver .  .  .  cha-ching!!$$!!$$!!$$  So figure $150-200/month for BASIC coverage.  Ok, now we can start looking at cars.  Unless they get REALLY lucky, anything under $2-3K is going to have massive amounts of differed maintenance.  So, if buying cheap, they had better have at least a few hundred to cover repairs. Then they find out that, when it comes to cars (as with everything else), "the man" must be paid.  Tax, title and license are going to be several hundred bucks, even on a clunker.   This is before they buy their first gallon of gas, oil change, or set of tires.

So, my question would be, is there a way you can work for 5-6 months without having a car?  (Bus, car pool, family, moped)

Sadly, in my professional capacity, I've seen a lot of people who are trapped in poverty (especially in the more urban areas) by this very issue.  Anything paying a reasonable wage requires transportation and transportation requires a reasonable wage.  

You’ve outlined the problem exactly.  But it’s not just Urban. I pick up kids in one of the more affluent suburbs and these are the kids who are asking.  

It started when my lawn mowing service guy tried to get some kid to help him after school.  He was willing to pay $10.00 an hour.  I get up to 77 kids per trip in my bus and when I asked universally transportation was the problem. They were willing, heck eager but no way to get there

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

THIS is what I'm talking about.  "Assuming they require a car to get a job" is not appropriate given the circumstances.  There are lots of ways a teen (with initiative) can find income without needing to own and insure a car.

And one other point.  You mentioned that they want a job that will likely be to the detriment of their school work (grades).  Why give kids advice on what car to buy if it's not the right thing for them to do?  Sometimes the best advice isn't the advice they want to hear.  

Change the subject.  "What car shoud you buy?  Well let me ask...why is it that you need a car?  Do you realize what owning a car brings with it (Financially, legally)?"

ClemSparks said:

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

THIS is what I'm talking about.  "Assuming they require a car to get a job" is not appropriate given the circumstances.  There are lots of ways a teen (with initiative) can find income without needing to own and insure a car.

It's probably even easier now than when I was growing up.  The internet didn't exist back then.  

Mrs. VCH is a stay-at-home mom, but she has a little business making and selling jewelry on Etsy.  It's not _big_ money but she nets a hundred or two a month.  For a high school kid something like that would be perfect.  She never has to leave the house to do it, either.  

frenchyd said:

G_Body_Man said:

Are they willing to learn how to wrench on their own cars? If I didn't do all my own wrenching I never could have owned a car in high school.

Here in Minnesota wrenching without a garage quickly gets frostbite and frozen fingers. Right now there is close to 2 feet of snow and ice on the ground.  More coming this afternoon and the rest of the week.    

Sounds like there's a good bit of snow that needs shoveling there.  I bet a fellow could make a buck or three doing that.  

volvoclearinghouse said:

Some insights from a kid who grew up rural...

A car is not necessarily a requirement to get a job, even in the "sticks".  I grew up in the sticks.  My parents' house was on an acre lot- and that was the smallest lot in the neighborhood.  Corn grew across the street.  A guy owned 20 acres behind our house- and it was a pasture with horses.  Barns, by and large, outnumbered houses.  

When I was 14, I started mowing lawns.  Some of these, yes, my dad did drive me to- but others were neighbors I could walk the mower or ride the tractor to.  One guy was about a mile down the street, and I regularly just rode over there on the tractor.  Oh- and the tractor was mine, bought with my own money.  

When I turned 15 I got a job working for someone else.  There was a garden center a few miles away.  They pay wasn't great ($4.35 per hour back then, minimum wage) but it was close enough that I could ride my bicycle there.  I calculated the savings in doing that versus driving made any other employment option less attractive.  When I had to work late, I used hose clamps to mount a 'D' cell battery flashlight to the handlebars.  When cars came by, I'd dismount and go way off onto the shoulder, figuring they wouldn't be expecting a cyclist late at night on a country road.  

I didn't buy my first vehicle until I was 19.  

I worked most of the time when I was in high school, usually 16-20 hours per week (weekends) and 40 hours/ week during the summers.  Graduated with solid B+ grades.  

I too grew up near rural areas and I started much younger than you.  At age 5 I sold flower and vegetable seeds door to door and then went back and sold magazines subscriptions.  Later that year I organized neighborhood kids into yard cleaning, sidewalk and driveway shoveling brigades.  Kept that up until 8 when those same brigades worked for me passing out advertising leaflets.  

But these kids typically haven’t got their first job yet. They are trapped in the suburbs.  Three freeways block exits on foot or bike.  From here to my place it would take 25 minutes by car.  While I suspect you could probably walk or bike there time would make it virtually unrealistic.  

ClemSparks said:

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

THIS is what I'm talking about.  "Assuming they require a car to get a job" is not appropriate given the circumstances.  There are lots of ways a teen (with initiative) can find income without needing to own and insure a car.

And one other point.  You mentioned that they want a job that will likely be to the detriment of their school work (grades).  Why give kids advice on what car to buy if it's not the right thing for them to do?  Sometimes the best advice isn't the advice they want to hear.  

Change the subject.  "What car shoud you buy?  Well let me ask...why is it that you need a car?  Do you realize what owning a car brings with it (Financially, legally)?"

My first post I suggested that. Continue to use public transportation, school bus, etc.   But that’s a trap of it’s own.  No prior work history!  

volvoclearinghouse said:

frenchyd said:

G_Body_Man said:

Are they willing to learn how to wrench on their own cars? If I didn't do all my own wrenching I never could have owned a car in high school.

Here in Minnesota wrenching without a garage quickly gets frostbite and frozen fingers. Right now there is close to 2 feet of snow and ice on the ground.  More coming this afternoon and the rest of the week.    

Sounds like there's a good bit of snow that needs shoveling there.  I bet a fellow could make a buck or three doing that.  

Good point. I’ll tell some of them to grab a snow shovel and go knock on doors.  

KyAllroad (Jeremy) said:

frenchyd said:

KyAllroad (Jeremy) said:

Anything that was built to be neglected and abused.  Rental fleet fodder.

Since insurance statistics show that teenagers are likely to crash their first car something safe and cheap.  15 year old Ford Taurus is my usual go-to.

What is the price of a 15 year old Taurus? How reliable are they? What do they cost to insure? 

The Taurus is not particularly loved and doesn’t suffer the Toyota tax. (Comparable Camry will cost more than double).

They were built to be neglected but keep running and are pretty much never stolen so their insurance is as cheap as anything out there.  Believe me, i’ve Put some thought into this.  

In my house the oldest girl is driving my Passat until she leaves for college since she can’t take a car with her but it wouldn’t be a good car for a teenager to buy and gets worse mileage than ideal.  My sone drives a stick shift Fiesta his mother bought him, great car but too new and pricey for kids to swing on their own as a first car.

Miata are pretty awesome but for crash durability and insurance costs I don’t love them as first cars.

If anything, the best lesson you could give these kids is how to shop for a car without getting reamed by a shady/unscrupulous seller.

Great point. The Toyota tax is good!  I never thought of A Ford since they didn’t use to have a very reliable reputation. I know American cars have made big strides in that regard in the last decade.  But a 10 year old car wouldn’t that be too expensive?  Even a bottom level Ford or Chevy?  

frenchyd said:

volvoclearinghouse said:

Some insights from a kid who grew up rural...

A car is not necessarily a requirement to get a job, even in the "sticks".  I grew up in the sticks.  My parents' house was on an acre lot- and that was the smallest lot in the neighborhood.  Corn grew across the street.  A guy owned 20 acres behind our house- and it was a pasture with horses.  Barns, by and large, outnumbered houses.  

When I was 14, I started mowing lawns.  Some of these, yes, my dad did drive me to- but others were neighbors I could walk the mower or ride the tractor to.  One guy was about a mile down the street, and I regularly just rode over there on the tractor.  Oh- and the tractor was mine, bought with my own money.  

When I turned 15 I got a job working for someone else.  There was a garden center a few miles away.  They pay wasn't great ($4.35 per hour back then, minimum wage) but it was close enough that I could ride my bicycle there.  I calculated the savings in doing that versus driving made any other employment option less attractive.  When I had to work late, I used hose clamps to mount a 'D' cell battery flashlight to the handlebars.  When cars came by, I'd dismount and go way off onto the shoulder, figuring they wouldn't be expecting a cyclist late at night on a country road.  

I didn't buy my first vehicle until I was 19.  

I worked most of the time when I was in high school, usually 16-20 hours per week (weekends) and 40 hours/ week during the summers.  Graduated with solid B+ grades.  

I too grew up near rural areas and I started much younger than you.  At age 5 I sold flower and vegetable seeds door to door and then went back and sold magazines subscriptions.  Later that year I organized neighborhood kids into yard cleaning, sidewalk and driveway shoveling brigades.  Kept that up until 8 when those same brigades worked for me passing out advertising leaflets.  

But these kids typically haven’t got their first job yet. They are trapped in the suburbs.  Three freeways block exits on foot or bike.  From here to my place it would take 25 minutes by car.  While I suspect you could probably walk or bike there time would make it virtually unrealistic.  

Being in the suburbs doesn't mean you're trapped by freeways, it just means that you can't choose to work ANYWHERE.

Burbs are going to have pizza places, restaurants, corner stores, maybe a strip mall or two, a grocery store, etc, etc all within cycling/bus/walking distance. Sure, you can't get a job at a welding shop 15 miles away, but you can get an entry-level customer service or retail job to save your pennies for a car and that would open your possibilities.

IMHO, the availability of cheap parts should be a major consideration, as is the ability to get you to work regardless.  On both accounts, the Jeep Cherokee is a great answer. 

They made millions of them over a long span of time, so they are easy to find in almost any shape/condition/budget. That makes it easier to find one they can afford and to find parts they can afford because, in addition to being in stock at their local parts store, they are also plentiful in wrecking yards and salvage yards. You will also find lots of parts on Craigslist, Facebook marketplace and E-Bay.  Rock Auto prices for Jeep Cherokee parts are super cheap as well. Even tires and wheels are easy to score second-hand. 

Best of all, the I-6 is pretty bulletproof and tolerates high miles well.  Sure, things will go wrong: it will leak oil or the windows won't go down or the locks won't work or the key will get stuck in the ignition...but it will still run and still get you to work. The body rusts, but it starts underneath where no one can see it, and flat panels are easier to patch with rivets or rudimentary welding.  There are not a lot of electronic gizmos to go bad, and the ones that do are pretty easy to swap out with basic hand tools.  

It's a great rural vehicle because it is rugged and has 4wd for the winter months.  Plenty of room inside for whatever, and not so fast as to get into trouble with the law of physics.  

It's pretty easy to find bicycles for under $50 on Craigslist, GovDeals, etc.

I realize that's not realistically going to work through a MN winter, but it could get them to/from work for super cheap during the summer months when school's out and that could buy them some time to save up for a vehicle.

frenchyd said:

Professor_Brap said:

Miata 
Is 
Always 
The 
Answer 

Wouldn’t a Miata cost too much to ensure?  

At 16 paying my on insurance it was $66mo. 

Anything common and cheap. Taurus, impala, monte carlo, accord, etc. The cleanest one they can afford. These types get good gas mileage and parts are cheap.

I think this would be a good opportunity to teach these kids the value of networking. I have seen countless times people have an old car they want to be rid of, but dont want to deal with selling it, so they give it away to a good kid they know. I also know plenty of guys with a shop, tools, and knowledge that are happy to let people they like come over and use their stuff, even teach them how to do it. You just need to get out there, be respectful, and make friends with people. This skill will get them a lot farther than a cheap car.

Wasn't it not long ago we were lamenting the lack of interest in cars among young people in a different thread?

These kids are being aspirational. They want a car because it is often the largest, most important thing somebody owns behind their house. It's a right of passage and a sign of growing up.

You can get a scooter and not need a driver's license for summer jobs.
 

$2k civic. 

Factor in basic maint to cost, and learning to do it is a great intro to cars if they are mechanically inclined. 

For what its worth, this is one of my favorite recent threads. We've stayed positive and practical.

Both of my nephews asked me this prior to reaching driving age. At first, it was all about getting a "rolling couch", AKA a full-size GM B-Body or a Ford Panther platform car. Cheap, easy to fix, and if you can pilot one of those barges around, you can probably drive anything! Later on, it turned into "what can you get for cheap that's common as dirt and is dependable"?

My 21 year old nephew still doesn't have his license (long story), but his little gearhead brother bought his first ride at 15: a 2004 Toyota 4Runner. He bought it from his brother's friend for next to nothing because it had some small issues (brakes were bad and it needed a cat back), and it's a PERFECT 1st car. Cheap to maintain, plenty of room inside, and it's safe. He's fixing up the last of it before he gets his license in a few weeks.

Other answers I often give:

-Small pickup, like a Ranger or S10. Great for kids that are "outdoorsy", have another project car (parts runner!) and that are in bands that need to haul equipment to gigs, and great for making friends!

-90's-00's Japanese Midsize Sedans. Accords, Acura TL's, Camrys, and especially Maximas! Non-CVT Altimas and even G35's fall into this realm as well. Dependable cars that are common as dirt and cheap to maintain and run.

-I used to say 240SX until the drifters started buying them up, because they were cheap and dependable, but The Answer can give you a similar experience, and the top goes down!

-Jeep Cherokee (XJ). Cheap as dirt to run and will go anywhere in any climate and in any weather. Grand Cherokee could also work here, as well as many other small, common SUV's.

 

pinchvalve said:

IMHO, the availability of cheap parts should be a major consideration, as is the ability to get you to work regardless.  On both accounts, the Jeep Cherokee is a great answer. 

They made millions of them over a long span of time, so they are easy to find in almost any shape/condition/budget. That makes it easier to find one they can afford and to find parts they can afford because, in addition to being in stock at their local parts store, they are also plentiful in wrecking yards and salvage yards. You will also find lots of parts on Craigslist, Facebook marketplace and E-Bay.  Rock Auto prices for Jeep Cherokee parts are super cheap as well. Even tires and wheels are easy to score second-hand. 

Best of all, the I-6 is pretty bulletproof and tolerates high miles well.  Sure, things will go wrong: it will leak oil or the windows won't go down or the locks won't work or the key will get stuck in the ignition...but it will still run and still get you to work. The body rusts, but it starts underneath where no one can see it, and flat panels are easier to patch with rivets or rudimentary welding.  There are not a lot of electronic gizmos to go bad, and the ones that do are pretty easy to swap out with basic hand tools.  

It's a great rural vehicle because it is rugged and has 4wd for the winter months.  Plenty of room inside for whatever, and not so fast as to get into trouble with the law of physics.  

If we are going for cheap SUVs with cheap parts....01 and earlier Explorer. Ive had one for 14 years now and every craigslist everywhere has a handful for under 1500. Parts are stupid cheap. Tires are stupid cheap. MPG is...ok. There are way way more of them than the Cherokee too

Just stay far far away from the 4.0 SOHC and youll be fine, people have got much over half a million miles out of the OHV 4.0

Tony Sestito said:

My 21 year old nephew still doesn't have his license (long story), but his little gearhead brother bought his first ride at 15: a 2004 Toyota 4Runner. He bought it from his brother's friend for next to nothing because it had some small issues (brakes were bad and it needed a cat back), and it's a PERFECT 1st car. Cheap to maintain, plenty of room inside, and it's safe. He's fixing up the last of it before he gets his license in a few weeks.

I've never seen a "cheap" 4th Generation 4Runner. Good on him if he got it cheap- it'll probably rust to bits before the drivetrain quits.

Antihero said:

pinchvalve said:

IMHO, the availability of cheap parts should be a major consideration, as is the ability to get you to work regardless.  On both accounts, the Jeep Cherokee is a great answer. 

They made millions of them over a long span of time, so they are easy to find in almost any shape/condition/budget. That makes it easier to find one they can afford and to find parts they can afford because, in addition to being in stock at their local parts store, they are also plentiful in wrecking yards and salvage yards. You will also find lots of parts on Craigslist, Facebook marketplace and E-Bay.  Rock Auto prices for Jeep Cherokee parts are super cheap as well. Even tires and wheels are easy to score second-hand. 

Best of all, the I-6 is pretty bulletproof and tolerates high miles well.  Sure, things will go wrong: it will leak oil or the windows won't go down or the locks won't work or the key will get stuck in the ignition...but it will still run and still get you to work. The body rusts, but it starts underneath where no one can see it, and flat panels are easier to patch with rivets or rudimentary welding.  There are not a lot of electronic gizmos to go bad, and the ones that do are pretty easy to swap out with basic hand tools.  

It's a great rural vehicle because it is rugged and has 4wd for the winter months.  Plenty of room inside for whatever, and not so fast as to get into trouble with the law of physics.  

If we are going for cheap SUVs with cheap parts....01 and earlier Explorer. Ive had one for 14 years now and every craigslist everywhere has a handful for under 1500. Parts are stupid cheap. Tires are stupid cheap. MPG is...ok. There are way way more of them than the Cherokee too

 

Just stay far far away from the 4.0 SOHC and youll be fine, people have got much over half a million miles out of the OHV 4.0

Butbutbutbutbutbutbut you will die when the tires explode!

No teen believes they will die. Everything is fine.

Streetwiseguy said:

Antihero said:

pinchvalve said:

IMHO, the availability of cheap parts should be a major consideration, as is the ability to get you to work regardless.  On both accounts, the Jeep Cherokee is a great answer. 

They made millions of them over a long span of time, so they are easy to find in almost any shape/condition/budget. That makes it easier to find one they can afford and to find parts they can afford because, in addition to being in stock at their local parts store, they are also plentiful in wrecking yards and salvage yards. You will also find lots of parts on Craigslist, Facebook marketplace and E-Bay.  Rock Auto prices for Jeep Cherokee parts are super cheap as well. Even tires and wheels are easy to score second-hand. 

Best of all, the I-6 is pretty bulletproof and tolerates high miles well.  Sure, things will go wrong: it will leak oil or the windows won't go down or the locks won't work or the key will get stuck in the ignition...but it will still run and still get you to work. The body rusts, but it starts underneath where no one can see it, and flat panels are easier to patch with rivets or rudimentary welding.  There are not a lot of electronic gizmos to go bad, and the ones that do are pretty easy to swap out with basic hand tools.  

It's a great rural vehicle because it is rugged and has 4wd for the winter months.  Plenty of room inside for whatever, and not so fast as to get into trouble with the law of physics.  

If we are going for cheap SUVs with cheap parts....01 and earlier Explorer. Ive had one for 14 years now and every craigslist everywhere has a handful for under 1500. Parts are stupid cheap. Tires are stupid cheap. MPG is...ok. There are way way more of them than the Cherokee too

 

Just stay far far away from the 4.0 SOHC and youll be fine, people have got much over half a million miles out of the OHV 4.0

Butbutbutbutbutbutbut you will die when the tires explode!

Any suv is gonna be tippy and as i remember they investigated and found that explorers werent any worse than any other suv. Stay away from firestone tires if it was really worrisome

U frenchyd said:

volvoclearinghouse said:

frenchyd said:

G_Body_Man said:

Are they willing to learn how to wrench on their own cars? If I didn't do all my own wrenching I never could have owned a car in high school.

Here in Minnesota wrenching without a garage quickly gets frostbite and frozen fingers. Right now there is close to 2 feet of snow and ice on the ground.  More coming this afternoon and the rest of the week.    

Sounds like there's a good bit of snow that needs shoveling there.  I bet a fellow could make a buck or three doing that.  

Good point. I’ll tell some of them to grab a snow shovel and go knock on doors.  

I was all excited until they got on the bus this afternoon. Of the 8 guys who are foster kids 7 had no gloves/mittens boots or warm jacket.  I don’t know how much adults are paid to provide a home but obviously it doesn’t include clothing. 

The sole exception  is a special needs kid. 

But kind of puts a  very sharp focus on where they are coming from.  They’ve got no one in their corner.  I hope I can help.