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  Dec. 15, 2009 12:44 p.m. Rusnak_322 Reader

  93celicaGT2 wrote:

  I wrestle with this every day. I get tempted constantly to sell the MX6, and part out the Celica to get a nicer car that is more capable out of the box. But then i realize that i'd just mess with that car anyways, so i may as well start with a cheap platform.

  Figure $8k or so for an E36 M3, vs. $600 Celica w/ $7400 in modifications. I know which i would have more fun with.

  I have not tracked a car, but I road raced bikes for years. I raced production, superbikes and GP bikes.
  

  Even with the higher costs of tires and brakes, it can be cheaper to run something like a stock M3 vs a modified to the gills Celica. I almost never had mechanical problems with the production bikes, and if I did, there were usually lots of people at the track who could help out with parts and advice. With the superbike, and the GP bikes, it got more complicated. I had to carry more spares and there were lots of times that I had a mechanical problem early in the weekend that could not be fixed.

  I lost lots of track time and spent lots of money on travel and hotels for nothing. I also wasted lots of precious track time trying to figure out little problems rather than working on my riding skills or having fun.

  To some people, that is the most fun. The track time is just a way to create more opportunities to tinker. I want to go to the track to improve my riding (driving) skills, not my mechanical skills.

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  Dec. 15, 2009 12:46 p.m. 93celicaGT2 SuperDork

  ^Yep, and that's a great point... but i'm a chronic tinkerer. I wouldn't be able to just leave the M3 alone, and by the end, i'd be right back where i started, just with a more expensive car that will be that much harder to replace in the event that i do stuff it into something.

  I can't even leave an Escort alone, imagine what i would be like with a car that actually had SERIOUS performance potential?

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  Dec. 15, 2009 1:26 p.m. mndsm Reader

  93celicaGT2 wrote:

  ^Yep, and that's a great point... but i'm a chronic tinkerer. I wouldn't be able to just leave the M3 alone, and by the end, i'd be right back where i started, just with a more expensive car that will be that much harder to replace in the event that i do stuff it into something.

  I can't even leave an Escort alone, imagine what i would be like with a car that actually had SERIOUS performance potential?

  I think you hit the nail on the head as to my root cause. Sure, I can go out and buy a stock xxxx car that will decimate y category. Plenty of stuff available in my price range. But I'd never leave it alone. I'm not ever on about what something can do from the factory, it's more, what can I make it do? And to that end, what can I make it do that it has absolutely no business doing? Which is why a z06 eating Miata sounds like a LOT of fun to me.

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  Dec. 15, 2009 1:52 p.m. poopshovel UltraDork

  I made the comment that for equal money, a Miata could be built that would destroy said Corvette in any contest of speed.

  Yes, but the miata would still be a miata.

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  Dec. 15, 2009 1:57 p.m. mndsm Reader

  poopshovel wrote:

  I made the comment that for equal money, a Miata could be built that would destroy said Corvette in any contest of speed.

  Yes, but the miata would still be a miata.

  Yep, it would, and that was the whole point.

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  Dec. 15, 2009 2:44 p.m. Ian F HalfDork

  mndsm wrote: But I'd never leave it alone.

  Hmm... In a way I used to be like that... I have a similar past experience as Rusnak, except with DH bikes... and with guitar playing before that... constantly tinkering... constantly trying to make the equipment do what I lacked in experience and practice...

  Now my DH bike is over 10 years old... and I can outride many of my friends on it, since I can ride that bike on a subconcious level. My guitars are all old as well, although no amount of familiarity can make up for a lack of practice there, so I still suck.

  I'm not saying I don't have a serious tinker inclination as well... but experience and rather sobering restraints of space and finances have tempered it quite a bit.

  This is one reason why I like auto-x'ing a Cooper. It's a capable car, but still slow enough to be a good learning tool. I don't think a faster car would serve me well at this point in my experience level. And then when I start looking at "the next step" cars, I keep having trouble finding arguements against jumping past street cars entirely and going straight to an F500. For my 'tinker car" I still have my 1800ES.

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  Dec. 15, 2009 3:31 p.m. mndsm Reader

  Ian F wrote:

  mndsm wrote: But I'd never leave it alone.

  Hmm... In a way I used to be like that... I have a similar past experience as Rusnak, except with DH bikes... and with guitar playing before that... constantly tinkering... constantly trying to make the equipment do what I lacked in experience and practice...

  Now my DH bike is over 10 years old... and I can outride many of my friends on it, since I can ride that bike on a subconcious level. My guitars are all old as well, although no amount of familiarity can make up for a lack of practice there, so I still suck.

  I'm not saying I don't have a serious tinker inclination as well... but experience and rather sobering restraints of space and finances have tempered it quite a bit.

  This is one reason why I like auto-x'ing a Cooper. It's a capable car, but still slow enough to be a good learning tool. I don't think a faster car would serve me well at this point in my experience level. And then when I start looking at "the next step" cars, I keep having trouble finding arguements against jumping past street cars entirely and going straight to an F500. For my 'tinker car" I still have my 1800ES.

  I'm going to go ahead and hijack my own thread..... how do you like the Cooper for auto-x? I've wanted to dive into that for some time now, and between the ms3, and the Cooper S.... I'd rather race the Cooper, even though the ms3 is considerably faster.

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  Dec. 15, 2009 3:35 p.m. GlennS Dork

  ReverendDexter wrote:

  mapper wrote:

  I can't stand GM, the company that likes to let us know that their products are what "Real Americans" buy, but I will admit that the C5 and C6 Z06 is an amazing car. And then there is the ZR1.

  I've come to really like the C5 and newer Corvettes. However, other than mabye a Cobalt SS, there's nothing else GM makes that really interests me above what I could get from Ford (and Ford didn't take my money because they failed at life).

  Ive been told the cts-v is kinda cool too

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  Dec. 15, 2009 4:07 p.m. MrJoshua UltraDork

  Start with a second or 3rd gen RX7 instead of a Miata and you should be able to match a Z06 easily.

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  Dec. 15, 2009 4:10 p.m. JeepinMatt Reader

  There was an ad in the back of a number of AutoWeek issues way back when that advertised a Yugo that was converted to a racer and "beat up on Porsches and Corvettes." I always doubted the validity of that statement, but the ad's lack of crappiness made me think. I'm kind of sorry I didn't call up and ask for more information.

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  Dec. 15, 2009 4:25 p.m. mndsm Reader

  JeepinMatt wrote:

  There was an ad in the back of a number of AutoWeek issues way back when that advertised a Yugo that was converted to a racer and "beat up on Porsches and Corvettes." I always doubted the validity of that statement, but the ad's lack of crappiness made me think. I'm kind of sorry I didn't call up and ask for more information.

  I'd pay 1 American dollar to see a Yugo actually beat up on a Porsche and/or a Corvette. 2 American dollars if either of the Yugos opponents actually ran.

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  Dec. 15, 2009 4:47 p.m. JeepinMatt Reader

  mndsm wrote:

  JeepinMatt wrote:

  There was an ad in the back of a number of AutoWeek issues way back when that advertised a Yugo that was converted to a racer and "beat up on Porsches and Corvettes." I always doubted the validity of that statement, but the ad's lack of crappiness made me think. I'm kind of sorry I didn't call up and ask for more information.

  I'd pay 1 American dollar to see a Yugo actually beat up on a Porsche and/or a Corvette. 2 American dollars if either of the Yugos opponents actually ran.

  It seemed like it was more of a shell that had some massive surgery, but even with a cage and some significant reinforcement I'm wondering how it would hold together. Wouldn't need a heck of a lot of power if it weighed that little, though

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  Dec. 15, 2009 5:08 p.m. mapper New Reader

  GlennS wrote:

  Ive been told the cts-v is kinda cool too

  I agree, and I liked the GTO and think the new Malibu is finally worth a look. I have owned several GM products and they have all been crap but I am not one to apply that to all of their products or every model year. I just don't like GM as a company. If I had the money, I might even pick a CTS-V over a BMW.

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  Dec. 15, 2009 6:15 p.m. aussiesmg SuperDork

  Now to throw an additonal thought at this discussion. Is the equal amount of $ in the project, should the Miata start to outprice the C5, does the C5 get to match the money in improvements because if you do that I can't see the Miata winning.

  $30K in the Miata < $20K C5 + $10K in go fast bits.

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  Dec. 15, 2009 6:53 p.m. Nashco SuperDork

  MrJoshua wrote:

  Start with a second or 3rd gen RX7 instead of a Miata and you should be able to match a Z06 easily.

  How is it any easier than the Miata? I call BS on "easily" matching the Z06 as you're still going to have months (years?) spent getting the car built and tuned to be close in performance for similar money. Seems like a hell of a challenge to me!!!

  Bryce

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  Dec. 15, 2009 7:00 p.m. Capt Slow HalfDork

  Start with a C4 vette and you should be able to match the C5 for less than 20k

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  Dec. 15, 2009 7:02 p.m. Keith PowerDork

  Nashco wrote:

  How is it any easier than the Miata?
  

  More tire, more aero, more wheelbase. It's closer in concept to a Z06 in the first place.

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  Dec. 15, 2009 7:13 p.m. MrJoshua UltraDork

  Nashco wrote:

  MrJoshua wrote:

  Start with a second or 3rd gen RX7 instead of a Miata and you should be able to match a Z06 easily.

  How is it any easier than the Miata? I call BS on "easily" matching the Z06 as you're still going to have months (years?) spent getting the car built and tuned to be close in performance for similar money. Seems like a hell of a challenge to me!!!

  Bryce

  Same motor as the Z06 bolts in with a cheap swap kit or moderately priced swap kit just like the Miata. The Diff can handle the power better and there is room for a turbo if you want to go nuts. Better Aero, brakes are big enough stock, more room for tires, etc... Another benefit is that the RX7 LSx swap has been happening longer than the Miata LSx swap so you can buy clean examples already completed all day long. A heads/cam LSx swapped second generation RX7 can be deep into the 10's in the 1/4 with a full interior and keep the stock weight distribution. With the looooong successful race history of that chassis, making it go around corners is merely a phone call or two away. Theres a reason a V8 RX7 has won the challenge twice.

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  Dec. 15, 2009 7:16 p.m. Nashco SuperDork

  Keith wrote:

  Nashco wrote:

  How is it any easier than the Miata?
  

  More tire, more aero, more wheelbase. It's closer in concept to a Z06 in the first place.

  Hmm...fair enough, I'll give you that. However, it seems to me that it's still not enough tire/aero/brakes/etc. to compare to the Z06 without a heck of a lot of work. I do agree, it would be easier than a Miata, but I still doubt that the Z06 is "easily" trumped by the reworked RX7.

  Bryce

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  Dec. 15, 2009 7:37 p.m. Ian F HalfDork

  mndsm wrote: I'm going to go ahead and hijack my own thread..... how do you like the Cooper for auto-x? I've wanted to dive into that for some time now, and between the ms3, and the Cooper S.... I'd rather race the Cooper, even though the ms3 is considerably faster.

  So far, it's fun. But 2010 will only be my 2nd season. And I'm still running street tires in HS rather than full r-comps. The car we have is a. '07 convertible so it will never really be competitive against an equally prepped hard top, so I doubt I'll do much more to the car other than R-comps maybe half-way through the year. Possibly struts later... In the meantime, I'll just continue to learn and have fun. However, even as a Novice last year, I managed to post times at a couple of events that would have won open HS.
  

  We have an '03 MCS as well and IMHO, the problem with a Cooper S for auto-x is that if you want to "play" with it, it gets bumped into modded classes where it has a tough time being competitive. Especially if you add the popular pulley upgrade which puts the car in Street Mod.

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  Dec. 15, 2009 8:42 p.m. Appleseed Dork

  Nashco wrote:

  So let me get this straight...you want to spend 20+ grand and hundreds of hours with the hopes of making a Miata that might keep up with a stock Corvette that costs less than $20k? I guess I don't understand what you're trying to prove. Is this something you're actually doing or proving your prowess in magical bench racing math?

  Bryce

  With this philosophy, hot rodding in any of it's forms would not exist.

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  Dec. 15, 2009 9:03 p.m. Rusnak_322 Reader

  Appleseed wrote:

  Nashco wrote:

  So let me get this straight...you want to spend 20+ grand and hundreds of hours with the hopes of making a Miata that might keep up with a stock Corvette that costs less than $20k? I guess I don't understand what you're trying to prove. Is this something you're actually doing or proving your prowess in magical bench racing math?

  Bryce

  With this philosophy, hot rodding in any of it's forms would not exist.

  Not really. In the 1950's don't you think that if the hot rodder could have bought a car as good as their hot rods for the same money, they would have? In the muscle car era, if you couldn't afford a hemi or other big block, you would hop up what you had. I don't think that there was a stigma against store bought performance. In fact, the car companies encouraged that with the bigger and bigger engines. Real hot rodding would take as much car as you can afford as a starting point and then keep adding to it. Like starting with the Z06 and making it perform as close too a ZR1 as they could. If all you can afford is the Miata, then hot rod it to vette levels is a great idea, but if you were going to do it in one go, then start with the vette. The only advantage to the Miata is that more people will race you in that then in a Z06 because they won't expect the performance.

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  Dec. 15, 2009 10:56 p.m. mndsm Reader

  Ahhhh.... the smell of debate.

  I guess the one thing that I forgot to make clear was I am TOTALLY aware that this is wholly impractical. It would actually be easier for me financially to just go buy the Vette, but where's the fun in that?

  Also I forget who asked, but yes, the cars would match dollar for dollar. z06=20k, Miata+mods=20k. As an example. I suspect this guy will buy a really clean one, probably closer to 25k.

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  Dec. 15, 2009 10:58 p.m. EricM Dork

  I go back and forth on buying a capable car and building one. I think that buildingone would be better as I don't need to spend money all atonce and can work on it over time.

  My intention is to build a car that can beat up on XXXXX on the track and then this happens:

  

  
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  Dec. 15, 2009 11:00 p.m. mndsm Reader

  Ian F wrote:

  mndsm wrote: I'm going to go ahead and hijack my own thread..... how do you like the Cooper for auto-x? I've wanted to dive into that for some time now, and between the ms3, and the Cooper S.... I'd rather race the Cooper, even though the ms3 is considerably faster.

  So far, it's fun. But 2010 will only be my 2nd season. And I'm still running street tires in HS rather than full r-comps. The car we have is a. '07 convertible so it will never really be competitive against an equally prepped hard top, so I doubt I'll do much more to the car other than R-comps maybe half-way through the year. Possibly struts later... In the meantime, I'll just continue to learn and have fun. However, even as a Novice last year, I managed to post times at a couple of events that would have won open HS.
  

  We have an '03 MCS as well and IMHO, the problem with a Cooper S for auto-x is that if you want to "play" with it, it gets bumped into modded classes where it has a tough time being competitive. Especially if you add the popular pulley upgrade which puts the car in Street Mod.

  Heh, the ms3 is well past where the pulley mod would put the Mini... so I'm not terribly worried about that. My wife won't let me near the engine bay of that car..... yet. I think she's going to try and distract me with an old school Corolla, or a Miata soon here.

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