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Jerry From LA wrote:Unfortunately, a large part of the driving population abdicates all control when collision is imminent. They just give up and wait for the bang, especially if the car leaves the road. So the addition of ABS to most vehicles is irrelevant in the absence of any accident avoidance maneuvers.
AKA The "Jesus, take the wheel!" approach.
I was about 19 or so and was riding shotgun in a Pontiac Safari wagon driven by my GF. Someone pulled out of a side road in front of her, she screamed and clapped her hands over her eyes. 
I reached over and yanked the wheel to the left, thus missing the other car by a good 4 feet.
Toyman01 wrote:The article specified run off road crashes. Could it be that a locked tire has better stopping power once the car leaves the pavement. In my experience a locked tire in dirt or grass has the tendency to dig in rather than just slide. Just a thought.
You ain't never rode a dirt bike hard and fast, have you? 
The LAST thing you want is for the tires to lock up under braking unless you have a good reason (such as locking the rear brake to bring the rear around for a sharp turn). Once they slide, your control is vastly reduced and the stopping distance gets greater. The worst of all is sliding on wet grease, er, grass.
GameboyRMH wrote:ABS is supposed to stop a car in 1/4 the distance a professional driver could manage, actually. People probably just don't know how to drive (as usual) and don't know how to use the brakes, and of course most people think something is wrong when they feel the brake pedal pulsating and let off the brakes.
I don't buy that at all. AT ALL. Everybody I know, non-car-people included, understands that you feel the ABS kicking in. I think that's a red herring circulated (purposely or not) by the NHTSA.
I think what really happens is that people think ABS and stability control systems allow them to exceed the laws of physics, because they have blind trust that the electronic nannies will sort it out, because the NHTSA has told them these cars are always safer than cars without while they were trying to justify making them mandatory.
[edit] I don't have a problem with ABS and it is featured on all my cars but 1, and in working order too. I just think that this proves the NHTSA is utter pants at predicting the outcome of all their massive mandatory policies.
The 1/4 distance claim isn't realistic, let's get past that.
I think a good ABS system is a big plus for any car. Most of my cars don't have it because they're too old or too much of a bastard, but the ones that do the bulk of the street duty have it and I'm glad for it.
I haven't had to deal with a lot of accident avoidance situations that involved threshold braking, but there was one example years ago that made me realize that for the first half-second or more, my lizard brain is going to be in charge and I'm just going to try to put that brake pedal through the firewall. I didn't have as much high-performance driving experience then as I do now, but I was playing around with autocrossing at the time so I had some practice in threshold braking. Even then, my first reaction wasn't clever. If ABS can help my lizard brain stop the car, I approve.
I bought my Elantra without, mostly because the ABS system on these cars require about 5% longer stopping distances and saddle the car with rear disc which are finiky and wear out a set of pads every 25-30k miles, where as my rear drum non ABS car stops quicker and has made a set of rear shoes last 115k miles. I now several cases where ABS was a detriment to us in past years, especially on gravel roads (that I travel oneveryday).
I prefer my cars to be non-ABS at the moment. I prefer to be the one DRIVING, not the car. Same with TCS, ESC, and any other nanny device that takes car control away from the driver.
How about this as a solution: Instead of spending billions on making the car "safer", or more "idiot proof", we spend that mopney making better drivers. Wouldn't that be more beneficial? Make them responsible for their actions and teach them how to handle themselves and the car in extreme situations. Kinda like a Police Officer that panicked and couldn't think to put a speeding car in nuetral to avoid a crash.
I think the problem with ABS is people view it as a magic cure-all for E36 M3ty driving, much like 4WD/AWD in snow and E36 M3ty weather.
My first car didn't have ABS. I remember going down a hill after a hard rain had just started while the roads were their slipperiest. Some guy decided not to look both ways before he pulled out and made a left turn in front of me (slowly). I got on the binders and they locked almost immediately. BUT--I pulled off the pedal a little bit to get them spinning again, got the car pretty much stopped, and avoided this fellow. No problem. I was an "inexperienced" 16 year-old driver too. Of course, the nine years of my life before that were spent absolutely fascinated with braking systems on my go karts, tractors, cars, etc.
Really, though, the only time I don't want ABS is in the snow. However, the difference between the two is negligible. Give me my snow tires and I'm happy either way.
I think the key here is that these figures are for run-off-road crashes. If the car has run off the road, the driver has usually lost control of a lot more than just the braking, and is about to hit something very hard very quickly. Ideally ABS helps them keep from running off the road in the first place, but isn't going to help a whole lot once they have lost it (and often given up, as mentioned above).
Only one of my vehicles has ABS (the others are too old) - my DD Jeep Liberty (I live 7 miles off the paved road in snow country),and the ABS (and through the ABS, the stability control) really works well on this truck. In fact, I can't play around much with power oversteer in the snow because the stability control corrects nicely before I do - nice for the real world when you encounter the unexpected. Now when I turn off the stability control - wheee!
Not to say that all ABS systems work as well. My previous DD (a '99 Isuzu Amigo V6 - great truck!) was so ABS hypersensitive that it kicked in with extremely light pedal pressure and actually drastically increased stopping distances on dirt. Pretty much everyone on the net who had an Amigo or Rodeo of this vintage pulled the fuse until the factory came up with a recall reprogamming, which worked very nicely.
On my Mk. 1 MR2, which is really prone to locking up a front wheel when autocrossing or tracking (not much trail braking opportunity here), I would dearly love to have ABS. It would significantly improve my lap times.
Randy Pobst recently wrote an article for Sportscar that advised not turning off the ABS/stability program until it realy interferes with your driving - and that most of the time, drivers can go faster with it on (of course he was dealing with Porsche systems).
abs is obviously crap. I mean they baned it in F1. How good could it have been?
I wrote a paper a couple years ago on how ABS is dangerous.I even proved it with a G-meter and stopping distances. The results are the worst in heavy slush. I would be slowing down more than sufficiently in my Cadavalier, then the ABS would kick in and it was like I let off the brake pedal; scary E36 M3 when your hurtling towards an intersection.
I tested in rain, snow, and slush (ohio weather makes excellent testing grounds...), and the stopping distances and rate of deceleration were ALWAYS WORSE with the ABS enabled. Therefore my ABS fuse resides in the glovebox.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:The Tundra has rear ABS as standard equipment. All pickups since about 95 or so do.Grtechguy wrote:It's kinda funny how all my Daily Drivers don't have working ABS
911nope, Tundra nope... race car nyet.... huh...mine either.
The wife's Xi has it so I'm not completely living ABS free.
YaNi wrote:I wrote a paper a couple years ago on how poorly implemented ABS is dangerous.I even proved it with a G-meter and stopping distances. The results are the worst in heavy slush. I would be slowing down more than sufficiently in my Cadavalier, then the ABS would kick in and it was like I let off the brake pedal; scary E36 M3 when your hurtling towards an intersection.
I tested in rain, snow, and slush (ohio weather makes excellent testing grounds...), and the stopping distances and rate of deceleration were ALWAYS WORSE with the ABS enabled. Therefore my ABS fuse resides in the glovebox.
Fixed that for you. I once drove a rental Grand Am with ABS that was absolutely horrendous. GM had obviously put it on the car simply to add it to the spec sheet. You can't compare that to a well-designed system.
It's the same way in the E30. I managed to stop 50 feet shorter from sixty by not pushing hard enough to activate the ABS.
That said, I still think it should be on cars, at least until threshold braking is part of the drivers test.
ignorant wrote:abs is obviously crap. I mean they baned it in F1. How good could it have been?
You're joking, right?
Datsun1500 wrote:The Tundra has rear ABS as standard equipment. All pickups since about 95 or so do.
You are right - it has rear ABS but for all driving purposes in poor weather or emergencies - I have to ignore that and modulate the pedal to keep the steering working. I think the only reason it has the rear ABS is for when the rear is empty and really light it keeps the back 1/2 from locking under normal braking. They used to use a variable proportioning valve for the same thing back in the old days. When the valves would rust up and stick you could end up backwards at a stoplight pretty easy on a rainy day.
yea, the differences in ABS between my Saab and BMW are astounding. It is RARE for me to activate the ABS in the Ti.. but it seems anytime it rains, I can feel the pedal pulsing in the saab. It is WAY to over sensitive.
I was thinking of putting in an override switch for driving in snow
carguy123 wrote:ignorant wrote:abs is obviously crap. I mean they baned it in F1. How good could it have been?
You're joking, right?
Of course he is. 
Jerry From LA wrote:People don't understand the purpose of ABS: To avoid locking up the wheels so the driver retains the ability to control the vehicle (steering inputs to minimize an accident or avoid collision altogether) during a panic stop situation. Unfortunately, a large part of the driving population abdicates all control when collision is imminent. They just give up and wait for the bang, especially if the car leaves the road. So the addition of ABS to most vehicles is irrelevant in the absence of any accident avoidance maneuvers.
Granted, some accidents occur so quickly there's no opportunity to avoid them or even hit the brakes. They also end up included in the statistics which skews the data. ABS can be a good thing but it requires awareness as to what it does and how it works.
Thank you! The data says nothing about whether or not ABS is somehow better than a standard braking system. I'll bet further research would show that most non-enthusiasts just expect the car to do the work for them, and are simply too unskilled/panicked/lazy/stupid/etc. to use the steering wheel. I could hear the trademark chattering (and saw the "dotted lines" of tire skid on the road) of ABS when the woman in the SUV hit my Golf.
OTOH, I suppose the design of the ABS has something to do with it as well. I've almost curbed the wheels on one of the Corrados because the system activated when one wheel hit a gravel patch at low speed. I couldn't see the entrance to the store very well in the dark, no one was behind me, and I attempted to threshold brake so I didn't have to go around the block-probably not a good decision on my part.. I ended up yanking the handbrake to swing the tail around.
I just brake very early these days, since I can't trust the brakes.
YaNi wrote:I wrote a paper a couple years ago on how ABS is dangerous.I even proved it with a G-meter and stopping distances. The results are the worst in heavy slush. I would be slowing down more than sufficiently in my Cadavalier, then the ABS would kick in and it was like I let off the brake pedal; scary E36 M3 when your hurtling towards an intersection.
I tested in rain, snow, and slush (ohio weather makes excellent testing grounds...), and the stopping distances and rate of deceleration were ALWAYS WORSE with the ABS enabled. Therefore my ABS fuse resides in the glovebox.
I will bet that all the fatalities were in Cavaliers. My brother and i each had one and it is the scariest car I've ever driven. I try not to let my wife use it because if the road is damp there is no telling what the brakes will do. There are days where it gets confused, releases the brakes and the only way to stop is to put the car in neutral and coast. It is also very sensitive to tires, once tires get worn about halfway the brakes become more unpredictable. the only way it could become more uncomfortable to drive would be if they could make the controls change function at random now and then.
Having a brake pedal push back when you REALY need to stop makes my butt pucker!
I do agree though that most people, when a wreck is about to happen, stand on the brake/stand on the brake & gas, and have a white knuckled, stiff armed, death-grip on the wheel.
The study does not detail the type and generation of the ABS systems checked. The rear wheel ABS system on my ranger was total crap, but was also an early generation in the development as ABS systems go.
The newest systems are great. The old beaters, that most of us drive, have some imperfect systems. The programing and the speed of acutation of the system are paramount.
Duke wrote: Everybody I know, non-car-people included, understands that you feel the ABS kicking in. I think that's a red herring circulated (purposely or not) by the NHTSA.
I suspect that very many people have no idea how ABS feels....the average person can go years and years without ever getting into a situation where they step on the brakes hard enough to lock them up, or to engage the ABS. I know the first time I drove an ABS car and the system engaged I was surprised by how the pedal felt, and I'm a car guy.
ignorant wrote:... The rear wheel ABS system on my ranger was total crap...
that was always interesting in my f150, coming to a stop and hit an expansion joint in the road and all of a sudden NO BRAKES! hey, the system worked though, the tires didn't lock up
