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  Jan. 16, 2010 11:46 p.m. joey48442 SuperDork

  Acorn wrote:

  Don49 wrote:

  Greg, So if I understand your post correctly, given the knowledge that a real threat existed, you would rather be blown up than be subjected to any security that might prevent that happening? That may be fine for you, but I think a lot of people would not be comfortable with that.

  I would rather take my chances with a mad bomber than have some security guy ogling me. And judging by the reaction I've gotten every time I've gone to check on a suspicious package most people seem to agree.

  I don't care if I'm ogled. I ogle women all the time and don't care if someone wants to return the favor. To me this is like carrying a gun. I would rather have the security, and not need it, than need it and not have. And if I get blown up and die because someone else was afraid some tsa employee was going to find out how small his ding-dong is, well, then, I'm going to be pissed.

  Joey

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  Jan. 17, 2010 7:47 a.m. Xceler8x Dork

  Datsun1500 wrote:

  You are paying the private company money to be in the shorter line. The TSA does not service someone quicker because of the type of ticket. The airline can control the amount of time you spend waiting in line and charge for it if they choose.

  Instead of flying commercial I can choose to spend more and fly private, which would be much faster. Same thing to me.

  In that first paragraph you're basically saying the same thing in four different ways. The short answer is that the guy with more money, political connections, etc can bypass the "peasant line" and go first with - I'll bet - many less random searches. That system is elitist. That is also how most unjust laws stay laws in this nation. The people who have the power to change the laws are never affected by them because they are isolated from the repercussions of living under those laws by money and/or power. No repercussion from a bad law = no motivation to change it.

  Therefore, ultimately, the airline does control how much time you spend in a security line by allowing the rich and well connected to bypass. The TSA is complicit in this by opening a second line that is set aside for those privileged passengers. No second line, no market to sell expedited security to you for $40 a person.

  In Australia they were much more egalitarian about it. An airline employee would call out flights that were leaving in the next hour. If you were on that flight they found you and moved you ahead in line. This was so that you wouldn't miss your flight. No upcharge. No elitism. No moneyed aristocracy walking past the peasants with their nose in the air acting as if they don't see. At Dulles we had 15 minutes to get through security and sprint to our plane. We notified the TSA and received a "Sorry, you have to wait in line." The shortened time frame we had to catch that flight was due to a previously cancelled flight.

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  Jan. 17, 2010 9:33 a.m. Datsun1500 Dork

  Xceler8x wrote:

  In Australia they were much more egalitarian about it. An airline employee would call out flights that were leaving in the next hour. If you were on that flight they found you and moved you ahead in line. This was so that you wouldn't miss your flight. No upcharge. No elitism. No moneyed aristocracy walking past the peasants with their nose in the air acting as if they don't see. At Dulles we had 15 minutes to get through security and sprint to our plane. We notified the TSA and received a "Sorry, you have to wait in line." The shortened time frame we had to catch that flight was due to a previously cancelled flight.

  They do that at BWI all the time. Asking a TSA employee was your mistake, they can't move you up as the airline controls the line, not them. If you would have told an airline employee you were cutting it close they would have moved you up.

  You seem to have an issue with the TSA because of the different lines, they have no control over them. Your issue should be with the airline. TSA does not open a second line for people that pay more, and if no one is in that line they take people from the other lines. You make it seem like TSA opens a 2nd line and just sits around and waits for people to show up. All of the lines feed to the same place...

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  Jan. 17, 2010 4:30 p.m. digdug18 Reader

  A buddy or mine works at an airport in new york and tells me they have one of these scanners, and that he can get me a video of his "Best of" highlights for $50. From what he tells me its all women, some of them being of a questionable age. I'm not gonna buy it, but just knowing that something like that is going around is rather pervy. He was even thinking about posting it online to the newsgroups.

  Andrew

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  Jan. 17, 2010 5:25 p.m. Xceler8x Dork

  Datsun1500 wrote:

  They do that at BWI all the time. Asking a TSA employee was your mistake, they can't move you up as the airline controls the line, not them. If you would have told an airline employee you were cutting it close they would have moved you up.

  Um...they knew. The airlines put us on the plane. They're parting words were "good luck." The TSA employees did move one passenger up. She was blonde, young, and 10 minutes from a missed flight. She apologized as she scooted ahead of us all. It was very nice of them.

  Datsun1500 wrote: You seem to have an issue with the TSA because of the different lines, they have no control over them. Your issue should be with the airline. TSA does not open a second line for people that pay more, and if no one is in that line they take people from the other lines. You make it seem like TSA opens a 2nd line and just sits around and waits for people to show up. All of the lines feed to the same place...

  If the TSA doesn't have control over the lines then how did a second line get started that was manned by TSA employees? Manning a line seems like some sort of control. Because if you don't man the line, then the line isn't open. I could be wrong here.

  I'm here to say the TSA did open a second line reserved for people willing to pay $40 for expedited security at Dulles. I was there. I was offered the "service" if I would pay for it. They didn't take other people from the longer lines. Believe me. I wish they had.

  Evidently you can get expedited security if you're a Raven's fan too.

  FLO Corp. strikes agreement to speed game-day access for Baltimore Ravens fans at M&T Bank Stadium

  FLO Corporation (OTCBB: FLRP), which markets the FLO Registered Traveler (RT) card, today signed a four-year, exclusive agreement with the Baltimore Ravens football team. This partnership will bring the numerous benefits of the FLO card to the team’s fans, including preferred access starting in 2009 to M&T Bank Stadium, as well as speedy access through security at Reagan, Dulles and other US airports.

  I wish this were not the case but it is. Whether I have a problem with the TSA or not is irrelevant.This elitist treatment happens. It's unfair.

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  Jan. 17, 2010 6:26 p.m. stuart in mn SuperDork

  digdug18 wrote:

  A buddy or mine works at an airport in new york and tells me they have one of these scanners, and that he can get me a video of his "Best of" highlights for $50. From what he tells me its all women, some of them being of a questionable age. I'm not gonna buy it, but just knowing that something like that is going around is rather pervy. He was even thinking about posting it online to the newsgroups.

  Andrew

  I'd say you should report that scumbag.

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  Jan. 17, 2010 6:54 p.m. Datsun1500 Dork

  Xceler8x wrote:

  Evidently you can get expedited security if you're a Raven's fan too.

  FLO Corp. strikes agreement to speed game-day access for Baltimore Ravens fans at M&T Bank Stadium

  FLO Corporation (OTCBB: FLRP), which markets the FLO Registered Traveler (RT) card, today signed a four-year, exclusive agreement with the Baltimore Ravens football team. This partnership will bring the numerous benefits of the FLO card to the team’s fans, including preferred access starting in 2009 to M&T Bank Stadium, as well as speedy access through security at Reagan, Dulles and other US airports.

  I wish this were not the case but it is. Whether I have a problem with the TSA or not is irrelevant.This elitist treatment happens. It's unfair.

  Twist stuff much? The FLO card is a way for a frequent filer to have an extensive background check done so you are registered with the TSA and can get through security quicker. The article you refer to says if you have a FLO card you will be able to get into M&T Bank Stadium quicker also, as another benefit of the card, not the other way around.

  The TSA did not open up another line, the airline did.

  I still don't understand why it is wrong to offer a service to get into a shorter line for extra $$$, same reason some people buy a Lexus, some a Toyota...

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  Jan. 17, 2010 7:28 p.m. CagleRacing New Reader

  digdug18 wrote:

  A buddy or mine works at an airport in new york and tells me they have one of these scanners, and that he can get me a video of his "Best of" highlights for $50. From what he tells me its all women, some of them being of a questionable age. I'm not gonna buy it, but just knowing that something like that is going around is rather pervy. He was even thinking about posting it online to the newsgroups.

  Andrew

  He doesn't sound like much of a buddy requesting $50 from you for something he can get to you for the price of a single DVD. Add to that the "perv" factor and maybe you'd want to say "Someone I barely know works at an airport..."

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  Jan. 17, 2010 7:57 p.m. joey48442 SuperDork

  If you apply all this to the health care it would be socialism. (or that's what sone groups would shout). Some people think we should all be in the same line, and people who payore to go through the lines faster are "elitest". But those same people who would think that those people are elitest are the people who think if you have more money you should have better health care. Or am I reading this wrong?

  Joey

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  Jan. 17, 2010 9:10 p.m. keethrax Reader

  In reply to audifan:

  I'm offended because the "security" being pushed on us for most of the past decade is largely a dog and pony show that doesn't do enough to make us safer, but is designed to be intentionally intrusive enough that people feel like they're being made safer.

  Me, I'd rather most of the money went into hiring competent employees and training rather than toys to be run by people that often would have trouble getting a job at McDonalds.

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  Jan. 17, 2010 9:25 p.m. Josh Dork

  joey48442 wrote:

  If you apply all this to the health care it would be socialism. (or that's what sone groups would shout). Some people think we should all be in the same line, and people who payore to go through the lines faster are "elitest". But those same people who would think that those people are elitest are the people who think if you have more money you should have better health care. Or am I reading this wrong?

  Joey

  That is hilarious and absolute truth.

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  Jan. 18, 2010 7:48 a.m. Xceler8x Dork

  Datsun1500 wrote:

  Twist stuff much? The FLO card is a way for a frequent filer to have an extensive background check done so you are registered with the TSA and can get through security quicker. The article you refer to says if you have a FLO card you will be able to get into M&T Bank Stadium quicker also, as another benefit of the card, not the other way around.

  If the TSA's presence is all about security who's to say that a FLO card is more secure? Can a private company be trusted to truly vet people thoroughly when their motive is purely profit? How secure is the production of a FLO card? Can one be forged? How secure is the data?

  I won't even touch on the fact that now we have a two tiered system for people to be served by their federal government. To get the service you've already paid for and forced to endure as a taxpayer, i.e. fast and efficient security to get on a plane, you now have to pay extra. Where is before this dog and pony show was forced on us everyone entered a plane as equals. Granted, your seats might be different but you didn't have to pay $100 a year or $40 at check-in to get around the Wal-mart greeter tearing into your luggage and frisking your kids.

  Datsun1500 wrote:

  The TSA did not open up another line, the airline did.

  Who's workers are manning that line? The airline's? How did the airline open another line again?

  Datsun1500 wrote: I still don't understand why it is wrong to offer a service to get into a shorter line for extra $$$, same reason some people buy a Lexus, some a Toyota...

  The federal government doesn't force you to buy a car. If it did force you to buy a car, and provide that car, it should be equal to all. We are all citizen's and pay taxes. One of the documents our government is based on states "All men are created equal..." and as a nation we profess to strive for equal treatment of all citizens under the law and federal government. The realities may be different but our nation professes to adhere to this ideal. It's the reason why, in theory, a poor man should be treated as well in court as a rich man.

  To state that a rich man will be treated better than a poor man is unfair and elitist. If a law is just it will treat all citizen's equally well. The TSA has proven again and again it is inefficient and ineffective at doing what it was created to do. Disband it. The preferential treatment for wealthy citizen's is another example of how it has missed it's goal. Let's not speak of how ultimately it has been the citizen's, and not the one's in first class, who have thwarted bombings and highjackings on planes.

  Maybe that's how we should fix this! The TSA should offer $1k to each passenger on a flight that stops a bomber. But only in the section that performed this heroism. Stop a bomber in econ class and all econ passengers get $1k!

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  Jan. 18, 2010 7:59 a.m. Xceler8x Dork

  joey48442 wrote:

  If you apply all this to the health care it would be socialism. (or that's what sone groups would shout). Some people think we should all be in the same line, and people who pay more to go through the lines faster are "elitest". But those same people who would think that those people are elitest are the people who think if you have more money you should have better health care. Or am I reading this wrong?

  Joey

  I'm all for a public option for healthcare btw. But back on topic...

  It's amazing. There are some places in the world that don't worship money. They do not subscribe to the idea that how much money you have defines whether you're a good person and deserving of respect. I've already mentioned how in Australia the airline security folks operated there. It didn't matter if you had money or not. What mattered was that they wanted you to make your flight. They didn't move you ahead for $40. They moved you ahead in the line because it was the right way to help people and keep the airport operating efficiently.

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  Jan. 18, 2010 8:11 a.m. Don49 New Reader

  That is an interesting proposal, but once the bomb is on the plane, how does an untrained passenger stop it from being detonated? It's real easy to make broad statements, but you obviously have little real knowledge. Part of the key to security is layers of protection. The more layers the more effective the security. Remove those layers and you reduce security. No single system or layer is perfect or 100% effective. All you have to do is read the newspapers or watch the news to see there is a real threat. You can choose to ignore the facts or accept the fact that the world has changed. Ask the families of the passengers on United Flight #93 if waiting until there is a problem on board an aircraft is a reasonable approach. It would be wonderful if there were less intrusive ways to do this. Also, if you think TSA Screeners are so inept and incapable, try applying for a job with the TSA and see if you can pass the tests, training and security checks required. Some 90% don't make the cut.

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  Jan. 18, 2010 8:23 a.m. Xceler8x Dork

  Don49 wrote:

  That is an interesting proposal, but once the bomb is on the plane, how does an untrained passenger stop it from being detonated? It's real easy to make broad statements, but you obviously have little real knowledge. Part of the key to security is layers of protection. The more layers the more effective the security. Remove those layers and you reduce security. No single system or layer is perfect or 100% effective. All you have to do is read the newspapers or watch the news to see there is a real threat. You can choose to ignore the facts or accept the fact that the world has changed. Ask the families of the passengers on United Flight #93 if waiting until there is a problem on board an aircraft is a reasonable approach. It would be wonderful if there were less intrusive ways to do this. Also, if you think TSA Screeners are so inept and incapable, try applying for a job with the TSA and see if you can pass the tests, training and security checks required. Some 90% don't make the cut.

  How're those layers of security working out for you?

  Report slams TSA failure to track security passes

  Lawmakers assail TSA failures in covert tests

  Airport screeners fail to see most test bombs

  Fake bomb eludes airport test

  The world has changed. As citizen's we know that we are the ultimate defense against air terrorism. Which is why the plots that make it onto a plane are stopped by passengers. It's also why we lock pilots behind a bulkhead door.

  The TSA has proven to be ineffective at stopping terrorists. While being very effective at inconveniencing flyers and teaching citizen's to be more docile no matter how asinine or intrusive the government behaviour.

  I will say that the TSA reps are of a much higher quality than when this all began. But then again..maybe we just don't hear as much about it anymore since it's against TSA policy to release certain information about their performance.

  New Jersey Star Ledger - TSA Seeks Source of Leaks on Airport Security Tests

  I may not know much about airport security but I know B.S. when I smell it.

  See. I'm all for smaller government and less government intrusion into private lives. I'm for lowering the national debt as well. Close the TSA and we'd save billions! Also, no government agency has ever done anything right. Are you with me? Where's Ron Paul when you need him?

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  Jan. 18, 2010 9:11 a.m. TJ Dork

  Xceler8x wrote:

  See. I'm all for smaller government and less government intrusion into private lives. I'm for lowering the national debt as well. Close the TSA and we'd save billions! Also, no government agency has ever done anything right. Are you with me? Where's Ron Paul when you need him?

  +eleventybillion

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  Jan. 18, 2010 9:36 a.m. Wally SuperDork

  Don49 wrote: Also, if you think TSA Screeners are so inept and incapable, try applying for a job with the TSA and see if you can pass the tests, training and security checks required. Some 90% don't make the cut.

  We turn away 90% of the people who take the Bus Operator test as well, it's more of a reflection on the people take gov't tests than on how hard the job is. The drug screen alone kills a huge number of applicants.

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  Jan. 18, 2010 10:15 a.m. TJ Dork

  Xceler8x wrote:

  See. I'm all for smaller government and less government intrusion into private lives. I'm for lowering the national debt as well. Close the TSA and we'd save billions! Also, no government agency has ever done anything right. Are you with me? Where's Ron Paul when you need him?

  
  

  Actually, the question is not where is Ron Paul (or people like him) the question is where are the voters who are not so easily fooled into thinking that one party is good and the other is bad, when the truth is they are both out to get us.

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  Jan. 18, 2010 10:16 a.m. tuna55 HalfDork

  TJ wrote:

  Xceler8x wrote:

  See. I'm all for smaller government and less government intrusion into private lives. I'm for lowering the national debt as well. Close the TSA and we'd save billions! Also, no government agency has ever done anything right. Are you with me? Where's Ron Paul when you need him?

  +eleventybillion

  • a few googols more
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  Jan. 18, 2010 10:33 a.m. Keith SuperDork

  About the Australian method of pulling people out of line so they don't miss their flight - if anyone's ever gone through US immigration pre-clearance in Toronto that was the standard operating procedure.

  The lineup was so long that the only way to get through was to stand there until they pulled you out of line so you wouldn't miss your flight. It was a management problem - there was enough staff to keep the line from getting longer, so all it would have taken to stop the massive line would have been a few more agents on duty earlier so the line wouldn't build up - but the people running the show did take the passengers' needs into account. I believe it was run by the US immigration service, whatever the acronym is these days.

  It's different now, apparently. I understand someone realized that you don't HAVE to have a line so it's not really an issue anymore. But that's how it worked in 2002-03 or so before I started avoiding that particular airport.

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  Jan. 18, 2010 10:41 a.m. slantvaliant HalfDork

  Wally wrote: The drug screen alone kills a huge number of applicants.

  Wow! Must be some tough test!

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  Jan. 18, 2010 11:45 a.m. Keith SuperDork

  Yeah, not all applicants can take the hard stuff

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