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Forums » Off-topic discussion » PA Small Game Hunting, Environmental Issues?

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  Sept. 5, 2008 1:16 p.m. PHeller New Reader

  I've always looked at hunting, if managed correctly, is a ethical way to control animal populations.

  Recently, I've started getting much better with my shotgun, and being that I've never done any hunting and have no idea how to prepare wild game, I thought it might be a good learning experience. I'm an avid outdoorsman, I really like backpacking and would like to actually learn how to survive, and like I said, I have no idea how to prepare game.

  I'm not a crazy carnivore out to eat as much meat as possible, but I have had rabbit and think its delicious. I would much sooner eat something that I shot in the wood than a steer that lived most of its life in captivity. So no, I'm not a vegetarian, but I do have some ethical reservations (I dont eat veal).

  My questions is this:

  When it comes to small game populations such as the common rabbit or gray squirrel, what kind of impact I'm I having when I go hunting? Is this impact beneficial or negatively impacting the eco-system?

  It was always my idea that Gray Squirrels are a detriment to the red squirrel population, and the fewer gray squirrels the better, but I understand that part of the reason for rapid recovery of many of the birds of prey is due to the increase of rabbit and gray squirrel populations.

  Thoughts?
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  Sept. 5, 2008 1:24 p.m. SoloSonett Reader

  Modern ( post 1930's ) game regulations in all states have garunteed a future of wildlife for generations.

  I have hunted ( and lived ) in Ohio for 55 years.

  When I was a lad a white tail was a creature of history. Wild Turkey? it was only whiskey.

  Now? every county in the State has a hunting season on both.

  Even black bear are coming back The impact you will make as a legal hunter is well regulated.

  Small game populations NEED human intervention now !We have impacted their natural habitat so much.

  Enjoy your hunting season and the meals you harvest!
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  Sept. 5, 2008 1:24 p.m. alfadriver Reader

  Odd as it may sound, I was just thinking about this.

  Now, my "disclaimer"- I can't shoot an animal. But that's just me.

  BUT. IMHO, I think hunting is very good for the environment.

  1) Animal control- I've lived through two instances where the wild animal population got very much out of control, leading to a lot of disease, let alone some serious damage caused by the animals eating- both in Idaho and Michigan. Humans are a good predator to keep the animal population in reasonable check.

  2) For every lb of meat you eat from the environment, that's one less lb of likely beef that is not needed to consume, which leads to one less cow, to a whole herd of cow, etc, etc. Which is good doublely- fewer acerage devoted to growing feed to that particular animal, and fewer local issues where the cows are grown.

  So while I'm not going out shooting animals, I'm glad there are people who do...

  Eric
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  Sept. 5, 2008 1:31 p.m. neon4891 Dork

  I need to finally get my deer permit, being as I would rather hit them with a bullet than my car.
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  Sept. 5, 2008 1:34 p.m. Osterkraut Reader

  The greatest conservationist of them all is a responsible man who gets pleasure out of hunting. After all, they've got a personal stake in the matter.

  They don't represent 100% of the population, though... damnitall.
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  Sept. 5, 2008 2:37 p.m. ignorant UberDork

  I think the fact that you are asking these questions mean you'll be fine hunting whatever you want.
  

  I wish more folks would go outside and chill in any nondestructive form and they will have a greater appreciation for nature. By nondestructive, I mean not burining down large woods and blazing trails through wetlands while wheeling. I don't consider hunting and fishing to be destructive at all, as long as done responsibly.
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  Sept. 5, 2008 2:43 p.m. spitfirebill HalfDork

  I have no idea about red squirrels, but we have grey squirrels all over the place. We had none until after our cat died. I'm a fixing to get me a highpowered pellet rifle and euthanize the ones that go onto my roof. I've never eaten squirrel but an old coworkers used to hunt and eat them all the time. Just google for some game recipes.
  

  I used to hunt dove, quail, rabbits and squirrels all the time. Only ate the dove and quail. Gave the rabbits and squrrels to a farm hand who really appreciated them. I no longer hunt, but its more the lack of opportunity that the desire. But, i don't get pleasure out of killing animals (well some anyway).
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  Sept. 5, 2008 2:57 p.m. Apexcarver SuperDork

  the only "hunting" i have done is trying to eliminate the surplus groundhog population in my yard at our house in the sticks.

  

  actually, there were so many around that they took to gnawing on the doorframes and corners of the house

  playing sniper with a scoped .22 solved the problem for awhile, but we have a few more living at the edges of the yard again.
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  Sept. 5, 2008 3:22 p.m. ddavidv SuperDork

  If groundhogs were good eatin', I'd never have to buy meat. The damn things are everywhere here.

  May want to read some of Ted Nugent's books on hunting. I think his philosophy is just the thing you may be looking for.
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  Sept. 5, 2008 3:50 p.m. EastCoastMojo Reader

  I haven't picked up a copy of 'Varmint Hunter" in a while.

  not insinuating that it has anything to do with Ted Nugent, I just happened to post after you
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  Sept. 5, 2008 4:17 p.m. SupraWes HalfDork

  I say go for it! Unless you are doing your hunting in a zoo or pet store I think you will be doing a good thing in helping with population control. I personally don't have the ability to kill or the desire to clean but I love to eat the stuff.
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  Sept. 5, 2008 4:22 p.m. Salanis Dork

  There is a big government project the company I works is associated with. One of the primary goals of the population is restoring natural wetlands in CA that have disappeared, dried up, or become poisoned from industrial and/or farming sources.

  The biggest group pushing this part of the program is Ducks Unlimited, which is primarily concerned with hunting.

  I also love buffalo burgers. I've heard it said that one of the things restoring the buffalo populations is that they're tasty and so people are farming them.

  I can't imagine one person having an impact on squirrel populations.
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  Sept. 5, 2008 5:46 p.m. GlennS HalfDork

  best burger i ever had was buffalo. delicious
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  Sept. 5, 2008 7:03 p.m. scottgib New Reader

  Don't use lead shot and have at it. It is very hard to make a dent in the grey squirrel population. I have woods behind me and went to war with the squirrels that came near my house. They were chewing on every piece of plastic they could find such as sprinker nozzles, gas grill controls, etc. It seems that killing them is akin to taking a bucket of water out of a big lake. The hole just fills up.

  A shotgun can make a mess out of a squirrel if you want to eat it. If you have a safe place to hunt, a good .22 is much better if you can shoot. My dad and grandfather used to "bark" them. That is they would hit the bark just underneath the squirrel was and the shock would knock them out of the tree and either kill them or addle them enough to be reached before they came to.
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  Sept. 5, 2008 7:49 p.m. foxtrapper SuperDork

  ddavidv wrote:

  If groundhogs were good eatin', I'd never have to buy meat. The damn things are everywhere here.

  Well eat up! Groundhogs are right tasty. Young'ns are the best.

  Pheller, I'd suggest taking someone who's experienced with you on the hunt. It's a lot harder to do well then you'd expect.
  

  The excitement will have your shots going wild, and you'll have to deal with a wounded animal at times. You need someone who knows how to track and has ethics about it.

  Then there's the conversion of a dead animal to food. That to is much more difficult than you'd expect, and not just from the mechanics. Though that's difficult enough for a novice. There's also the smell and the emotions. This is the point where many a novice swears off ever hunting again.
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  Sept. 5, 2008 8:16 p.m. PHeller New Reader

  Exactly why I'd like to try it.

  I've gone out with my buddy and my dad before, and well...my buddy did better than my dad. I saw him shoot, carry, and skin a few squirrels and a rabbit. Didn't really bother me much.

  I was even helping him spot the creatures.
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  Sept. 6, 2008 12:43 a.m. curtis73 New Reader

  As a hunter who grew up in PA, I have learned one very important truth. Conservation is in YOUR hands, not the law's. Always obey the law to avoid trouble, but as PA taught me over the years the way the hunting regulations are created is more based on funding and politics than actual environmental impact.

  The PA game commission is an independent organization unaffiliated with the state government so sometimes its motivation is more dependent on finances and public pressure than actual responsible environmental population

  In my opinion, hunting in PA has never graduated from its "trophy" status. I fully support someone waiting for a 10-point buck as long as they eat it, but too many just go out and "fill their tags" for the sake of bragging rights.
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  Sept. 6, 2008 8:32 a.m. ddavidv SuperDork

  True dat.

  I still vividly remember (probably 10-12 yrs ago now) working with a pair of guys who were avid hunters. I mean, their lives revolved around hunting season, which I could relate to since my life revolves around racing season. Anyhow, one day during deer season while they were stuck working two of their buddies show up with a dead Bambi in the back of their truck, obviously proud of their accomplishment. What took me from casual observer to pissed off in mere seconds was this exchange between them:

  "You taking it to get butchered?"

  "I guess."

  "What do you mean, 'you guess'?"

  "Neither one of us wants the meat. You want it? You can have it."

  My hunter co-workers were probably too delighted to get free venison to really be pissed, but to me, if you're not going to consume the meat you just killed, then WTF is the point of shooting the thing? Why not just paste it with a paintball? If you want a stuffed head with antlers on your wall, just go to a garage sale...enough of those around here to choose from without all the hard work of carrying a dead carcass out of the woods.
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  Sept. 6, 2008 8:38 a.m. PHeller New Reader

  Haha, I go deer hunting just for the meat.

  Personally, I think trophies are pointless unless you killed and animal with your bare hands or a spear or something...I mean...it's always going to be a unfair fight using a gun, why brag about it?
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  Sept. 6, 2008 9:14 p.m. foxtrapper SuperDork

  What took me from casual observer to pissed off in mere seconds was this exchange between them: ... if you're not going to consume the meat you just killed, then WTF is the point of shooting the thing?

  That's like vilifying a farmer for raising more cows than he's going to eat.
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  Sept. 6, 2008 10:29 p.m. ddavidv SuperDork

  foxtrapper wrote: That's like vilifying a farmer for raising more cows than he's going to eat.

  Woah. That's one of the dumbest things I've seen you post.

  Farmers raise cattle for food for those who don't hunt. Hunters generally consume what they kill. These knuckleheads went hunting purely for a pair of antlers and had no plan whatsoever for the meat. How you managed that comparison escapes me. C'mon Fox, you're better than that.
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  Sept. 7, 2008 1:35 a.m. curtis73 New Reader

  I'm not a freaky vegetarian, but I personally believe that if you are going to eat meat, you need to be experienced with killing it. Meat production has HUGE negative enivironmental impacts, but there are a billion people paying for farms to raise and kill animals by proxy.

  I think if you eat beef you should be responsible for killing at least one cow per year. Imagine some 60-year-old beverly hills rich-bitch with a knife in her hand slicing the jugular of bessie and then picture how much meat she would eat if that were a law.
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  Sept. 7, 2008 8:09 p.m. foxtrapper SuperDork

  I do population control hunts and traps, where I'm tasked with killing far more deer (or whatevers) than I can possibly eat.
  

  Now something that many of us hunters do with excess meat is give it away, like the two guys you mentioned. They were looking for someone to take it.
  

  In fact, many of us pay to feed other people our excess meat. The programs exist in probably every state in the nation, under names like Share the Harvest and such. Where we, those disgusting hunters who killed a deer we're not going to eat, take it to a butcher, and pay the butcher to package it so others can eat it. Usually donated to soup kitchens and the like. Typically costs about $50 per deer.

  Something you describe those two "yahoos" considering, when you posted that they were thinking of taking it to a butcher when they had no intention of keping the meat themselves. So, they were likely considering paying money to give their meat away for others to eat.

  Tell me again how stupid and dispicable me and those yahoos are.
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  Sept. 7, 2008 9:07 p.m. ignorant UberDork

  In SC.. Local butchers will come and pick up the game from the side of the road within an hour, butcher it, and bring it to an orphanage.
  

  My tech just killed, a hog... and I mean a hog. Had the transmission on the quad smoking, pulling it out of the woods...

  Guy came and took it away for the kiddies..
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  Sept. 7, 2008 9:11 p.m. Apexcarver SuperDork

  foxtrapper, i think you know as well as i do that many who hunt are not so noble (i dont mean to say that you or most are included). There are defiantly those who go out only to shoot something and get a trophy. Ddavidv was referring to that type of person, which i think you would tend to agree is a bit less then noble then the act of responsible population control or feeding.
  

  for instance, i encountered a group of teenagers who were fishing at the dock in the private community my mother lives in by running a line off the docking cleat and leaving for several hours. didnt realize that was going on until they came to check their lines. they then proceeded to kill the fish on the lines by smacking them on the dock rather then removing the hooks or snipping the lines and threw the dead fish back in the water bragging about all the fish they had caught that weekend. (i noted the plate and informed DNR, dont know what came of it)

  I think that you will agree that those who are only after bragging rights like that are beyond despicable.
  

  while you did present how it could have been someone doing something morally right and that he was confused, I think you must accept that there are those in existence who do behave as he stated that are in fact doing something morally reprehensible.
  

  that stated, for the most part the law prohibits the worst of the behaviors that are reprehensible (like the people i encountered fishing)

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