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  • BradLTL

    Feb. 11, 2011 10:08 a.m. BradLTL Reader

    For those of you non-gaming types, an individual hacked his PS3. What does that mean in real world terms? It means he unlocked the operating system so that he could install his own software. The rub with this is that it opens the door to software piracy. So Sony is attacking him.

    What does this have to do with cars? Well nothing yet. My concern is the precedent that this sets. What GeoHot did is similar to modifying a car. He basically put a new carburetor on his engine and new is being prosecuted by the car maker. At what point does ownership and fair use outweigh the company's right to dictate to tell you how to use something you've purchased?

    Thoughts?

  • 4cylndrfury

    Feb. 11, 2011 10:16 a.m. 4cylndrfury SuperDork

    perosnally, (im no lawyer) Id imagine the precedent is already set with cars. Automakers wares have been zawzalled, frankenswapped, and mutilated beyond all recognition, and it has been the case since the very beginning of the automobile. Id imagine too, the case with the playstation will not see the light of day as there were probably no laws actually violated. Had he been attempting to turn the hacked unit into a money maker, Id say then there was some sort of grounds for a suit. Sony is just trying to make a name for game-platform hacking, and it will go away.

    again, I am no lawyer, and make no claims to be one. This is just my gut reaction.

  • alfadriver

    Feb. 11, 2011 10:17 a.m. alfadriver SuperDork

    Brad Really, there are laws for this. For individuals, AFAIK, there's virtually nothing that an OEM or even the EPA can do- I think it's been tried, and failed quite quickly. The most an OEM seems to do is deny warrantee claims.

    If you try to sell the hack, then the anti-tampering rules will apply. Interestingly enough, this rarely happen. I get the impression that some companies do the "wink wink" thing since they can sell more cars if there is a hack available to them. On the flip side, I see some rather brazen mods that claim to have some real backing, and I have sent a private e-mail to them warning them that they are skating on thin ice....

    Not sure about the GeoHot situation you mention, and I would be very interested in reading about it- so if you could post it, I'd read it.

    One has to understand that being careful is the right thing to do- a lot is allowed when it could easily be prosecuted under the law. If someone decideds that these mods, however few in numbers, are a threat to the environment, well- who know what will happen.

  • aircooled

    Feb. 11, 2011 10:25 a.m. aircooled SuperDork

    I would think the situation might actually be the reverse of what Brad is thinking. As in, how can Sony dictate what someone does with a product they bought, when almost the same thing is commonly done with other products (cars). It seems like the precedent runs the other way (there is way more of it).

  • neon4891

    Feb. 11, 2011 10:41 a.m. neon4891 SuperDork

    Or look at the XBox and the 360. Those get hacked to hell and back and the most MS will do is not let you connect to XBox live.

  • Ignorant

    Feb. 11, 2011 10:43 a.m. Ignorant SuperDork

    Was this a business that was selling hacked PS3's?

    I believe, It's already against the law for a dealership to sell a modified car as new.. But beyond that... I dunno.

  • jeffmx5

    Feb. 11, 2011 11:33 a.m. jeffmx5 Reader

    Cars don't (yet) come with a EULA that prevents you from modifying them. The PS3 does.

    He's not selling anything. Sony says he violated the PS3 EULA and the DMCA by breaking the encryption on the firmware and publishing the master keys. Oh, and this is nothing new. The same type of lawsuits have come out of breaking the DVD encryption, etc...

    It does seem strange that everything that has any sort of software in it has a 'license' in that you don't really own anything, just the right to use it. Even if it is primarily a piece of hardware like a PS3.

    I think they would have a hard time applying that to cars. I suppose I could see encrypted ECUs one day, preventing third-party flashes and an 'EULA' preventing you from tampering with it, especially if this 'Black Box Recorder' crap goes anywhere.

  • BradLTL

    Feb. 11, 2011 3:05 p.m. BradLTL Reader

    Here's a link to the most recent story...

    http://kotaku.com/#!5757793/sony-to-comb-through-ps3-hackers-computer

  • SilverFleet

    Feb. 11, 2011 3:39 p.m. SilverFleet HalfDork

    They used to not really be able to do anything except void your warranty, much like reflashing a computer and modding your car would void the warranty of the car. Now that everything is hooked up online through PSN, Xbox Live, etc, they get mad.

    Why? Because you can cheat and mess up other people's gaming experiences, as well as the whole piracy thing. The piracy thing is going to get you sued, not the cheating thing. Precedents have been set in the automotive world long ago, otherwise the aftermarket parts industry would be illegal.

  • Javelin

    Feb. 11, 2011 3:56 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

    Ignorant wrote:

    Was this a business that was selling hacked PS3's?

    I believe, It's already against the law for a dealership to sell a modified car as new.. But beyond that... I dunno.

    Bwaaaah? Baldwin-Motion? Yenko? SLP? Saleen? Roush? SHELBY? Ah, yeah, dealers and others have sold new cars modified with warranties forever.

  • alfadriver

    Feb. 11, 2011 4:08 p.m. alfadriver SuperDork

    Javelin wrote:

    Ignorant wrote:

    Was this a business that was selling hacked PS3's?

    I believe, It's already against the law for a dealership to sell a modified car as new.. But beyond that... I dunno.

    Bwaaaah? Baldwin-Motion? Yenko? SLP? Saleen? Roush? SHELBY? Ah, yeah, dealers and others have sold new cars modified with warranties forever.

    Not sure where you are going with that, but most modern modified cars that are sold at a dealer are either done under license, or they stand alone as builder, and supply their own warranty.

    And I think it's legal to sell mods that are agreed upon by the OEM. That seems happen.

  • Javelin

    Feb. 11, 2011 4:21 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

    Showing that there is no law against selling modified new cars. There are literally hundreds of dealers that perform performance mods on new cars before putting them on the showroom floor, and many still carry the factory warranty even without a direct agreement with the manufacturer (though in most of those cases it's the manufacturer's parts, such as Ford Racing equipment on a Mustang). It's been happening for decades.

    Damn near every dealer does it for "looks" too. Those stupid flismy plastic wheel-well "moldings", tinted windows, alarms, pinstriping, "undercoating", "paint protection", that's all modifications and none of it is factory.

  • alfadriver

    Feb. 11, 2011 4:32 p.m. alfadriver SuperDork

    Javelin wrote:

    Showing that there is no law against selling modified new cars. There are literally hundreds of dealers that perform performance mods on new cars before putting them on the showroom floor, and many still carry the factory warranty even without a direct agreement with the manufacturer (though in most of those cases it's the manufacturer's parts, such as Ford Racing equipment on a Mustang). It's been happening for decades.

    Damn near every dealer does it for "looks" too. Those stupid flismy plastic wheel-well "moldings", tinted windows, alarms, pinstriping, "undercoating", "paint protection", that's all modifications and none of it is factory.

    Depending on the modification it is- http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/cff/memo-1a.txt

    And I'd bet that NHTSA has a similiar rule for required safety items.

    EPA even has a "hot line." http://www.epa.gov/compliance/complaints/index.html

    It's been ilegal for decades.

  • Javelin

    Feb. 11, 2011 5:06 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

    So because it's illegal to modify the emissions systems or safety systems, suddenly all modifications are illegal? What kind of idiotic logic is that?

    It's perfectly legal (and performed EVERY DAY) to modify a new car before sale, and even to sell it as new, besides those two exceptions.

    • Nickey
    • Yenko
    • Baldwin-Motion
    • SLP
    • Hurst
    • Shelby
    • Berger
    • Roush
    • Saleen
    • RUF
    • Alpina
    • Mansory
  • alfadriver

    Feb. 11, 2011 5:20 p.m. alfadriver SuperDork

    Javelin wrote:

    So because it's illegal to modify the emissions systems or safety systems, suddenly all modifications are illegal? What kind of idiotic logic is that?

    It's perfectly legal (and performed EVERY DAY) to modify a new car before sale, and even to sell it as new, besides those two exceptions.

    • Nickey
    • Yenko
    • Baldwin-Motion
    • SLP
    • Hurst
    • Shelby
    • Berger
    • Roush
    • Saleen
    • RUF
    • Alpina
    • Mansory

    Wow, you accuse me of not reading- the words "depends on the modification" means nothing? Being that this thread is about modifying the ECU, that's pretty much the key component to emissions. So the anti-tampering law covers the main concern.

    I didn't say ALL.

    Oh, and Shelby, Roush, and Saleen tend to sell their cars as OEMs. I bet others do, too.

  • Javelin

    Feb. 11, 2011 5:33 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

    Funny, there's plenty of legal ways to modify the ECU. Your own company even sells a Ford Racing tuner/reprogrammer. So does GM, and MSD, and BullyDog, and Hypertech, and DiabloSport, and Cobb, and about a dozen others. I can even do it in California.

  • alfadriver

    Feb. 11, 2011 9:36 p.m. alfadriver SuperDork

    Javelin wrote:

    Funny, there's plenty of legal ways to modify the ECU. Your own company even sells a Ford Racing tuner/reprogrammer. So does GM, and MSD, and BullyDog, and Hypertech, and DiabloSport, and Cobb, and about a dozen others. I can even do it in California.

    That does not make it legal. It's legal if you proove that it is. Or if you prove that it is not used on road. Simple. The rule is pretty straight forward.

    If you hack and don't prove that it still passes, then it's not legal. Both the EPA and CARB tell you how to do that.

    Whether CARB or EPA does anything is up to them. They have gone after companies that have broken this rule, and probably will in the future.

  • Jamesc2123

    Feb. 12, 2011 1:21 a.m. Jamesc2123 Reader

    The main difference is that car companies perceive this type of open source tuning and tinkering of their product as good for business. In its best form, these aftermarket "car hackers" end up doing a better job than the factory, and the company hires them for their expertise (Shelby is the obvious example here).

    The same thing happening in the computer industry isn't that unheard of. Lots of companies hire "computer security researchers" to look for weaknesses in websites, software, whatever. Most of the time, companies look at people messing with their devices with a sort of cautious indifference. Just like a car company looking at the unauthorized aftermarket for their products, electronics co's will say "these parts can seriously damage your device and we would never support their use." But they accept that they exist and go on with their life.

    What Sony is doing, however, really is exactly the same as saying, "you chipped your car and can now run programs we didn't authorize, so we are going to take your car, sue you, and try to get you put in jail". If Sony wins, this could easily start happening with cars, at least with their electronic controls/ecu's.

    I sincerely hope that with the courts increasing acceptance of "jailbroken" computer devices (linky) will keep suits like Sony's and, god forbid, any car company at bay.

  • PubBurgers

    Feb. 12, 2011 7:59 a.m. PubBurgers Dork

    The biggest problem I see, especially having worked at an independent videogame store for 4 years, is that 99% of these "hackers" use the mods to pirate software. I don't so much mind modified systems, as a matter of fact, I've seen some pretty awesome stuff done with them. I also see plenty of Xboxs on craigslist with "over 200 games on burnt disks/installed on hard drive".

    When you modify your car you aren't stealing parts from the dealership but when you pirate software you're essentially taking money from retailers, distributors, and developers IMO.

  • SVreX

    Feb. 12, 2011 9:56 a.m. SVreX SuperDork

    The issue is not that he hacked the PS3. The issue is that he posted a how-to on YouTube as well as the code on his website.

    They don't say the nature of the hack, but it is likely that it took business from Sony.

    That is fundamentally different than most car mods.

    Most car mods do not take business from the manufacturer, they increase business to the manufacturer.

    For example, is the WRX considered great because of how it comes from the factory, or because of it's after market support options? The Subaru community is built on the fact that mods can be made, and that increases business to Subaru.

  • alfadriver

    Feb. 12, 2011 10:39 a.m. alfadriver SuperDork

    Jamesc2123 wrote:

    The main difference is that car companies perceive this type of open source tuning and tinkering of their product as good for business. In its best form, these aftermarket "car hackers" end up doing a better job than the factory, and the company hires them for their expertise (Shelby is the obvious example here).

    For the most part, I agree with that opinion.

    I would not call it better, but different. Most of the hacks sacrifice "reliability" (aka longevity) for power. OEM's are required to certify some parts to 120k or 150k miles, and if you know the main way that it's achieved, it's easy to add power. Also, there are compromises with fuel quality.

    But. I do get the impression that OEM's are not all that interested in going after them.

  • Jamesc2123

    Feb. 12, 2011 5:27 p.m. Jamesc2123 Reader

    I understand that jailbroken systems can allow for the possibility of people pirating software. They also allow users to do a lot of other cool things like run a full linux OS on their ps3, tailor the functionality/interfaces of the system to suit their preferences, hell even make their own games. Who knows what people will think up, that's the whole point. Its a niche market, but there are a lot of people that like the freedom to personalize their electronic systems (again, much the auto aftermarket).

    If Sony is worried about pirating software, they need to go after the sites and the people that are selling/using pirated software. And I fully support them doing so.

    We allow people to own all manner of products that have the potential for illegal activity (cars, guns, copper pots . ). why should a playstation be any different? Its only illegal if you use it illegally.

  • AquaHusky

    Feb. 13, 2011 2:59 p.m. AquaHusky Reader

    Why don't they do this kind of action with the PSP? It has been hacked and reprogrammed for years now.

 
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