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Login to post Forums » Off-topic discussion » Reinventing the Wheel

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Jan. 14, 2010 1:03 p.m. JeepinMatt HalfDork

Why?

What's the point? Is it really necessary to put "touch handles" on a car instead of a door? The door handle was just fine. You pull it, the door opens. And it still works. But no, it's not "computery" enough, and we can't have that. We need a fancy electronic gizmo to replace it. Then we can enjoy opening up the door without using our muscles. Perfect. Let's make it more complicated, with a greater chance to fail, until everything is done electronically. I can't wait until a traditional non-automatic door is obsolete in a house and you have to rummage through your things to find the remote control to close the blinds because, heaven forbid, you would have to stand up and turn a little piece of plastic. This isn't progress. It's unnecessary obsession with technology. I'll go back under my rock and enjoy setting my drink down in an old-fashioned cupholder; you know, before they're all made of 47 different parts, run by electronics and only fail to let go of my friggin' drink half of the time.
Jan. 14, 2010 1:10 p.m. Adrian_Thompson Reader

Too much caffeine? Wrong sire of bed? PMS?
Jan. 14, 2010 1:20 p.m. aircooled SuperDork

And yet the still haven't invented the odor activated vented seat bottom... or have they?
Jan. 14, 2010 1:28 p.m. alex Dork

I'm with you there, Matt. I suppose as a society we're getting to the point where it won't be true, but it's still easier for me to fix a mechanical part than an electronic one.

But, the times they are a-changin', and electronics are, mechanically speaking, usually simpler than their analog counterparts. (I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords.) Anyway, by the time every damn thing is electronic, I'll be well into my eccentric/crotchety-old-man phase, so hopefully the world will leave me alone to tinker on things I understand in peace and quiet.

Oh, and get off my lawn.
Jan. 14, 2010 1:33 p.m. EastCoastMojo SuperDork

Why? Because dazzling us with new electro-wizardy is easier than fixing any real problems they already have.

Here's a pet peeve I have with my new(ish) Astro van. When I park it and turn off the engine it unlocks all the doors. What kind of BS is this? What if I am surrounded by zombies? I don't want to be eaten by zombies.
Jan. 14, 2010 1:43 p.m. ClemSparks UberDork

Yeah...but at least it's a choice.

You don't HAVE to go out and buy a new car with stupid gizmos. I agree, though, that if I DID wan't to go buy a new car, it would come down to "least worst" as far as I'm concerned.

Folks I work with don't understand my automotive (or household, for that matter) choices.

I simply tell them that it's easier to fix my '82 Corolla with no power steering, no power windows or locks, no air conditioning, no automatic transmission, etc.

But most folks appreciate "luxury" much more than I do.

Clem
Jan. 14, 2010 2:08 p.m. Nashco SuperDork
Sometimes there are really good reasons for gee whiz stuff...not always, but sometimes. For example, things I could imagine are improved with gee whiz door handles:
- Slim jim no workie
- Much more packaging flexibility with elimination of rods for the locks/opener
- Lighter door frame/skin can be used as it doesn't need to withstand physical opening force (just a button push)
- Easier integration of keyless entry (think code-operated like Fords have or On-Star operated like GM)
- Allows common parts to be used across many models, reducing long term design/maintenance/inventory costs and increasing cost reduction potential
So, if you look at it that way, the gee whiz door handle could allow you to have a car that is harder to break into without drawing attention, better looking, lighter weight, easier to get into if you lost your keys, and/or cheaper to purchase and maintain. Perhaps you don't agree with the means, but the end goal is almost always to create something better. Sometimes it's just gee whiz.

Bryce

PS...If we're complaining about gee whiz, I can't stand the automatically-added bullets on this message board. The dash I typed works just fine, I don't see how the bullet that messes up the format is an improvement.
Jan. 14, 2010 2:47 p.m. EastCoastMojo SuperDork

Problems I see with the electric design are things like not being able to get inside when the battery is dead to pop the hood to replace said battery.
Jan. 14, 2010 3:26 p.m. TJ Dork

EastCoastMojo wrote:

Why? Because dazzling us with new electro-wizardy is easier than fixing any real problems they already have.

Here's a pet peeve I have with my new(ish) Astro van. When I park it and turn off the engine it unlocks all the doors. What kind of BS is this? What if I am surrounded by zombies? I don't want to be eaten by zombies.

ECM, you just figured out a great mystery! GM has been employing zombies to design their vehicles. That explains a lot.

You may not to be eaten by zombies, but they want to eat you.
Jan. 14, 2010 3:30 p.m. Nashco SuperDork

EastCoastMojo wrote:

Problems I see with the electric design are things like not being able to get inside when the battery is dead to pop the hood to replace said battery.

...and of course, there's always a compromise to be made. In reality, it's not hard to find a place to tap into the wiring harness to backfeed power to the system so the doors will unlock...except of course most people leave the owner's manual in its original shrink wrap in the glove box with its secrets kept air-tight.

Bryce
Jan. 14, 2010 3:37 p.m. Nashco SuperDork

EastCoastMojo wrote:
Here's a pet peeve I have with my new(ish) Astro van. When I park it and turn off the engine it unlocks all the doors. What kind of BS is this? What if I am surrounded by zombies? I don't want to be eaten by zombies.

They automatically unlock the doors for convenience, since they automatically lock the doors when you start driving. This is a feature that I absolutely hate; with some automatic transmissions they unlock when you put it in park, which makes much more sense if you think it's a safety thing. My Sky has a manual trans and doesn't unlock the doors until you turn it off. I wish it would unlock when I set the parking brake instead. Well, really, I wish it just didn't run the locks without me pushing the button in the first place.

Bryce
Jan. 14, 2010 3:56 p.m. EastCoastMojo SuperDork

< South Park> "They took our jobs!" < /South Park>

Yeah, I really don't see the need for the door lock button at all if it's just going to automaticaly lock and unlock all the damn time. Save the five bucks and just don't install the button to begin with. This feature aggrivates me and I haven't figured out how to defeat it. Also, the auto button (and the remote)does not unlock the driver's door. I have to manually unlock and lock the driver's door, and all the other dooors are operated by the switch or by the computer. I almost named the van 'Hal' as in, "Open the pod bay doors Hal'. I've checked the manual but I'll check it again.
Jan. 14, 2010 3:58 p.m. xci_ed6 HalfDork

I know on Caravan's that was a user-programmable setting, involving key-cycles & button presses. Check your owners manual.
Jan. 14, 2010 4:09 p.m. Duke SuperDork

Nashco wrote:

...and of course, there's always a compromise to be made. In reality, it's not hard to find a place to tap into the wiring harness to backfeed power to the system so the doors will unlock...except of course most people leave the owner's manual in its original shrink wrap in the glove box with its secrets kept air-tight.

Where? Are there any user-reachable jump points that do not require you to unlock the cabin/hood/trunk? Anything apparent at all? Not that I'm aware of.

Say I'm out in the rain with a dead battery and all my doors are supercalifragilisticexpialidocius gee-whiz touchpads. What are my odds of finding somebody who will jump me, has jumper cables, and will lend me their jack so I can put the car up to get under and connect to (say) the starter wire and a frame member?

Dead battery is a PITA even when you have cables in your trunk and you can open your door with a real key. What if you can't get to any of your tools because the car won't let you?
Jan. 14, 2010 4:09 p.m. racerdave600 Reader

Some amount of electronics is fine, but some companies get carried away. Somehow I picture a group of giggling geeks trying to extract revenge on all of the people that made fun of them in HS.

I personally avoid cars these days that have for the sake of having it. When they do fail, and they will, electronic parts are usually a pain to fix.

Funny thing, I work for a tech company now that produces products and R&D for the energy industry, and it's interesting to watch all that goes into the electronics in particular. The basic hardware bits you have to source such as the raw boards have a large failure rate, as do the various pieces you have to purchase to build up what you want. We have a VERY stringent testing system to weed them out, and you'd be shocked at what you find.

We basically now have to source worldwide to simply get acceptable components. It's crazy.

Anyway, point is, electronics are going to fail at some point, and most are designed to be throw away pieces since they do not want you getting into them and stealing the designs and or software to run them. It's why everything is in modules today.

And come on, how lazy do you have to be to want a car that hands you the seat belt?

Just another reason to buy a Miata if you ask me!
Jan. 14, 2010 4:18 p.m. JeepinMatt HalfDork

ClemSparks wrote:

Yeah...but at least it's a choice.

For now. I'm not looking forward to my drive-by-wire steering and brakes, either. And what's with those automatic tape dispensers? You'd really buy that behemoth, feed it full of batteries every so often and wait for it to dispense a uniform piece of tape? You can't just pull it? Who buys these things? People who couldn't arm wrestle a little kid or open a soda without calling the fire department. And what if I want a bigger piece of tape? Why am I asking so many questions?
Jan. 14, 2010 4:42 p.m. Nashco SuperDork

Duke wrote:

Nashco wrote:

...and of course, there's always a compromise to be made. In reality, it's not hard to find a place to tap into the wiring harness to backfeed power to the system so the doors will unlock...except of course most people leave the owner's manual in its original shrink wrap in the glove box with its secrets kept air-tight.

Where? Are there any user-reachable jump points that do not require you to unlock the cabin/hood/trunk? Anything apparent at all? Not that I'm aware of.

Say I'm out in the rain with a dead battery and all my doors are supercalifragilisticexpialidocius gee-whiz touchpads. What are my odds of finding somebody who will jump me, has jumper cables, and will lend me their jack so I can put the car up to get under and connect to (say) the starter wire and a frame member?

Dead battery is a PITA even when you have cables in your trunk and you can open your door with a real key. What if you can't get to any of your tools because the car won't let you?

Completely depends on the car, some companies are better than others. Usually your FOB has a metal key built into it that can be used on the trunk/hatch/door as a fall-back for cars with no actual metal-keyed ignition tumbler. If you don't have that, you'll have to get more crafty. Did you have a specific car in mind?

Bryce
Jan. 14, 2010 4:53 p.m. bamalama Reader

Duke wrote:

Nashco wrote:

...and of course, there's always a compromise to be made. In reality, it's not hard to find a place to tap into the wiring harness to backfeed power to the system so the doors will unlock...except of course most people leave the owner's manual in its original shrink wrap in the glove box with its secrets kept air-tight.

Where? Are there any user-reachable jump points that do not require you to unlock the cabin/hood/trunk? Anything apparent at all? Not that I'm aware of.

Say I'm out in the rain with a dead battery and all my doors are supercalifragilisticexpialidocius gee-whiz touchpads. What are my odds of finding somebody who will jump me, has jumper cables, and will lend me their jack so I can put the car up to get under and connect to (say) the starter wire and a frame member?

Dead battery is a PITA even when you have cables in your trunk and you can open your door with a real key. What if you can't get to any of your tools because the car won't let you?

Burn it and collect the insurance. I'd sure as hell want to if I were in the aforementioned situation.
Jan. 14, 2010 5:58 p.m. TJ Dork

Two of my vehicles don't have power locks or windows (or anything for that matter) and I rarely lock them at all. My miata with the key fob doohickey I end up locking almost all the time out of habit - even if I am going to be in sight of the car the whole time or it is just for a minute.

I hate it when cars try to do things for me that I should be in control of like turning on or off the headlights or locking/unlocking the doors. Those 'features' if not easily defeated through a series of key turnings and button pushings would be enough to prevent me from buying a car.
Jan. 14, 2010 6:43 p.m. Streetwiseguy New Reader

Everybody seems to want the anti-zombie lock-em-up doors, but only GM is stupid enough to require you to unlock the door before you pull the handle. Most everybody else will allow you to just open the door.

As to the remote locking thingies- Does anybody ever remember to try the key every so often? The tumblers rust up from a lack of use, you know, and usually quicker than a remote battery goes dead in our climate.
Jan. 14, 2010 7:43 p.m. Slyp_Dawg New Reader

and yet people wonder why I like older cars? don't get me wrong, I'm all for computerized engine management and stuff like that, since plugging the engine into a laptop and changing a few figures from the [relative] comfort of the driver's seat on a dyno run seems SO much easier than making a run, looking at air/fuel readouts and power figures and listening to the engine, then remembering all that and crawling over a hot engine with a screwdriver to make minuscule adjustments to the carb, and that's assuming you've got ONE carb to work with. I pity the guy who has to repeat that process over 4-12 carbs. other than nostalgia, budget or technophobia, I can't think of one good reason to turn down an EFI setup for a carb setup, especially after you weigh all the performance and reliability benefits of EFI

that being said, car manufacturers can keep all their nifty gizmos, since when it comes down to it, as long as you don't count the intake/fuel system, I'd MUCH rather work on a car with a screwdriver than a soldering iron and/or a diagnostic code reader
Jan. 14, 2010 8:28 p.m. DeadSkunk Reader

Right after I bought my MINI (used) the wiring to the electric powersteering burned up. So I have it towed to the dealer. No parts in stock. I also tell them the mechanical door lock has something wrong and doesn't work. They park the car out on the lot to wait for a new harness. While parked the battery dies !! Now try and get into the car. They ended up jacking it up, removing the front wheels, cutting a hole in each inner fender with a hole saw, and them grabbing the two hood release cables with Vice-Grips to open the hood so they could charge the battery and use the key fob to open the door. To top it all off the warranty expired while it was sitting on their lot and they tried to charge me for all of it. I did a real good rant in the showroom in front of other customers before they agreed to put it all on warranty.Wouldn't have happened in the first place if there wasn't a need for a damned electric cooling fan on the bottom of the power steering pump. And JeepinMatt you want an "old fashioned cupholder" ? You must be relatively young because I think of cupholders as a new-fangled invention. I can remember my Dad getting the optional seatbelts in the front seat of his '63 Meteor. They worked pretty well at keeping my face from denting the metal dash!
Jan. 14, 2010 8:38 p.m. JeepinMatt HalfDork

DeadSkunk wrote:

And JeepinMatt you want an "old fashioned cupholder" ? You must be relatively young because I think of cupholders as a new-fangled invention. I can remember my Dad getting the optional seatbelts in the front seat of his '63 Meteor. They worked pretty well at keeping my face from denting the metal dash!

That's the truth. I dig the German (among others') idea that people should be driving, not sucking on a Big Gulp, but my two cupholders in my Jeep are the only two things I can put stuff in. My console and glove box are locked and I'd need to either leave them swinging open or stop the Jeep, turn it off, unlock it, get out/put in whatever it is, lock it up again, then start the Jeep. I never miss cupholders in the C3 Vette, though
Jan. 15, 2010 6:58 a.m. Gearheadotaku HalfDork

Coil on plug ignition. Remember when 1 coil fired 8 times a rotation? They lasted for years and years. Now they fire once per rotation and fail regularly. Body control computers. Why? Power windows, blower motors, wipers, and so on worked fine before!
Jan. 15, 2010 8:01 a.m. Duke SuperDork

No physical dipstick. [/thread]

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