What do people expect? Russia has been against Nato enlargement since the 90s, and the EU and US have ignored them constantly all while taking control of strategically important neighbors.
You have the US damn near if not explicitly backing a coup in the Ukraine, and people apparently expect Russia to sit by and twiddle their thumbs while we install a vehemently anti Russian government in their backyard.
Seems to me Ukraine wants out. They want to stand on their own, even back in the USSR days they were considered a 'satellite' country, i.e. not really part of Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_history_of_Ukraine
Ukraine officially declared itself an independent state on August 24, 1991, when the communist Supreme Soviet (parliament) of Ukraine proclaimed that Ukraine will no longer follow the laws of USSR and only the laws of the Ukrainian SSR, de facto declaring Ukraine's independence from the Soviet Union. On December 1, Ukrainian voters overwhelmingly approved a referendum formalising independence from the Soviet Union. Over 90% of Ukrainian citizens voted for independence, with majorities in every region, including 56% in Crimea, which had a 75% ethnic Russian population. The Soviet Union formally ceased to exist on December 26, when the presidents of Ukraine, Belarus and Russia (the founding members of the USSR) met in Belovezh Pushcha to formally dissolve the Union in accordance with the Soviet Constitution. And with this Ukraine's independence was formalized de jure and recognised by the international community.
So now what? Should they be forced to 'rejoin' what they never were part of in the first place?
Personally, I think we should stay the hell out of it. Tired of us getting involved in Europe's E36 M3. Tired of domino theories. Leave it to them to work out.
Curmudgeon wrote: Personally, I think we should stay the hell out of it. Tired of us getting involved in World's E36 M3. Tired of domino theories. Leave it to them to work out.
FTFY and agreed.
In reply to Curmudgeon:
Nah, despite what people seem to think, Putin isn't dumb enough to try for a full scale occupation of the Ukraine, even if Russia had the capability for it. They seemed to learn their lesson from Afghanistan and Chechnya when it comes to prolonged military occupation.
It seems like taking over Crimea was kind of a spur of the moment thing after Yanukovych got booted out of office and everything went to E36 M3.
I find the idea of sanctions amusing, since it wouldn't take much for Russia to screw over the EU economically just as quickly. Honestly the best idea would be to stop expanding Nato and keep those countries as a neutral buffer zone, but as far as I can tell the idea is to keep poking the bear and then complaining when it gets mad.
Grizz wrote: ...You have the US damn near if not explicitly backing a coup in the Ukraine, and people apparently expect Russia to sit by and twiddle their thumbs while we install a vehemently anti Russian government in their backyard.
But it's about freedom man!! It worked in Egypt... uhm... well... I mean Iraq... uhm.. well...
Hey, if they are not careful, we will have to drop a few Freedom Bombs on them!
In reply to aircooled:
Don't forget Syria, where Isis got its start.
Wait....
aircooled wrote:Grizz wrote: ...You have the US damn near if not explicitly backing a coup in the Ukraine, and people apparently expect Russia to sit by and twiddle their thumbs while we install a vehemently anti Russian government in their backyard.But it's about freedom man!! It worked in Egypt... uhm... well... I mean Iraq... uhm.. well... Hey, if they are not careful, we will have to drop a few Freedom Bombs on them!
they hate use because we are free.
Fueled by Caffeine wrote:aircooled wrote:they hate use because we are free.Grizz wrote: ...You have the US damn near if not explicitly backing a coup in the Ukraine, and people apparently expect Russia to sit by and twiddle their thumbs while we install a vehemently anti Russian government in their backyard.But it's about freedom man!! It worked in Egypt... uhm... well... I mean Iraq... uhm.. well... Hey, if they are not careful, we will have to drop a few Freedom Bombs on them!
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:Fueled by Caffeine wrote:aircooled wrote:they hate use because we are free.Grizz wrote: ...You have the US damn near if not explicitly backing a coup in the Ukraine, and people apparently expect Russia to sit by and twiddle their thumbs while we install a vehemently anti Russian government in their backyard.But it's about freedom man!! It worked in Egypt... uhm... well... I mean Iraq... uhm.. well... Hey, if they are not careful, we will have to drop a few Freedom Bombs on them!
Putin doesn't need European land mass when he has economic control over it. He'll keep pushing long enough to absorb the eastern Ukraine into the motherland and establish a direct, Russian-controlled pathway to Crimea, which he already has. With an even stronger Russian navy presence in the Crimean Sea (aided immensely) with the former Ukrainian held navy bases, Putin will go from having a grip on Europe's economic balls to having them in a vise.
Europe will cave to economic threats because its' leaders and its' people got soft from prosperity and pacifism. Yeah, Europe would fight back if Russian started rolling tanks and marching troops into NATO territories but Putin doesn't have to do that and he knows it.
Then, he gets to play even more with his proxy-states Syria and Iran to cause more trouble...
RossD wrote: Off subject a bit, but is there any good documentary on WWI or WWII on Netflix?
"The World at War" is pretty much the gold standard of WW2 docs: http://dvd.netflix.com/Movie/The-World-at-War-Collector-s-Edition/70102599?strkid=2043933518_0_0&strackid=2e889f53f3ff25a0_0_srl&trkid=222336
I have this WW1 doc at home, haven't started watching it yet: http://dvd.netflix.com/Movie/The-First-World-War-The-Complete-Series/70036343?strkid=517964025_0_0&strackid=31f8ca6f529fe63e_0_srl&trkid=222336
This is an interesting read: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-28/summarizing-wests-russia-ukraine-propaganda
Listen to NPR. You'll stay updated with all the world's current events, and better yet you'll get it all UNBIASED.
I listen to it when I can while I work and it makes my day fly by.
Also, I can't help but wonder what Call of Duty writers aren't slapping themselves thinking "Man! this would make a great story line! Why didn't we think of this?!"
Between Russia in Ukraine, ISIS in Iraq and Syria, unrest in Libya, Egypt, and the tinder box that is Israel, this is poised to be a real life COD: Modern Warfare saga.
NPR is certainly not unbiased.
Oh, you wanted unbiased.
Clearly the best news source on this subject:
Can someone help me out though. It appears my reading comprehension has dropped. What the hell is this article saying?
Russia’s Defense Ministry ridicules NATO’s photo-proof of invasion in Ukraine
In reply to aircooled:
The Russians are calling Boooooolsheeeeeeeit on Natos satellite images.
Bobzilla wrote:aircooled wrote: Also of note: The Russians aren't "invading". Reports talk about a couple thousand troops. I can assure you, the Russian army is a LOT larger then that. This is more the lines of "sending some troops to help the Vietnamese fight off the communist scourge".2000 troops crossed with 20k in reserve sitting just across the border, mobilized and ready to roll. That's a pretty large deployment.
Putin is just waiting for a photo op of dead Russian soldiers to justify sending in his hoards. It won't matter which side of the border they are on.
Putins been in the krokodil again.....
BoostedBrandon wrote: Between Russia in Ukraine, ISIS in Iraq and Syria, unrest in Libya, Egypt, and the tinder box that is Israel, this is poised to be a real life COD: Modern Warfare saga.
Unrelated but you can add on the worst ever, and getting more extreme by the moment, Ebola outbreak in West Africa.
It is truly a scary time we are living in.
For what its worth, I'm not really seeing Russian expansion as a "communist" issue anymore. The focus seems to have shifted to Russian nationalism/exceptionalism (30's Germany, anyone?). If you watched the opening ceremony of the Olympics, which were intended to be Putin's display of "look how awesome we are/were", there was VERY little reference to the glory days of communism. The Russian people have seen communism and they know its a failure. What they're being sold right now is the same pack of lies the German people were fed in the 30's: 1. We're on the cusp of being a great and powerful people, its just worldwide prejudices for perceived wrongs (WWI - Germany, Communism - Russia) that are holding us back. 2. The country is being run/ruined by gangsters - Russia (Jews - Germany) and only a strong central government can save us. 3. There are millions of our fellow Russians (Germans) living on the far side of artificially created borders who need us to come to their rescue. 4. We lack only a few resources, which conveniently can be found in the same place as our displaced citizens, so its "good for everyone" for us to annex those territories.
Sadly, this also corresponds with another 30's phenomenon. The only other superpowers of the day really have no stomach for another war.
In reply to kazoospec:
But what's troubling is that according to some recent polls, a lot of Russians are getting nostalgic for Stalin because the country was stronger then, and maybe purging 10 million people wasn't such a big deal after all.
In reply to Will: Totally agree that its troubling. But what I'm saying is, I don't think they are nostalgic for Communism so much as they are nostalgic to be feared/respected/powerful in the world order.
I so should not be watching red dawn right now.
Grizz wrote: What do people expect? Russia has been against Nato enlargement since the 90s, and the EU and US have ignored them constantly all while taking control of strategically important neighbors. You have the US damn near if not explicitly backing a coup in the Ukraine, and people apparently expect Russia to sit by and twiddle their thumbs while we install a vehemently anti Russian government in their backyard.
This. Why did our government feel the need to assist in overthrowing the democratically elected government and picking the new neo-nazi government of Ukraine? Why is it ok for these Ukrainians to carry out ethnic cleansing on the people of Russian background? Why are we surprised that Russia responded? Why do we think we are not the bad guys?
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