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  Jan. 9, 2009 9:37 p.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

  Back on topic: Margie, the article seems to indicate this could be a statewide thing too.

  Up here, the state constitution mandates a balanced budget every year. What happens: the legislators are a bunch of Bob Costas afraid to make the hard decisions so they created a Budget and Control Board which does nothing but rubber stamp legislation from the 1980s which says that all state agencies must take an across the board cut if there is a projected budget shortfall. That way these jerks don't have to make the hard decisions and then face the voters. So this year all the agencies took a hit of around 8%, IIRC (possibly more to come) and of course that hits the less well off school districts harder.

  Is that what's happening down there?

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  Jan. 10, 2009 2:03 a.m. Wally UltraDork

  914Driver wrote:

  Snow, mine gets reassessed almost every year, always up. If your house is worth more you pay more in taxes. I haven't even mowed the lawn for beautification, but they said it's worth $37,000 more than it was 18 months ago.

  Dan

  Thats the New York way. All I did last year was paint the back deck and Casa de Fat Guy became Palace de Fat Guy

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  Jan. 10, 2009 7:09 a.m. Snowdoggie Reader

  Wally wrote:

  914Driver wrote:

  Snow, mine gets reassessed almost every year, always up. If your house is worth more you pay more in taxes. I haven't even mowed the lawn for beautification, but they said it's worth $37,000 more than it was 18 months ago.

  Dan

  Thats the New York way. All I did last year was paint the back deck and Casa de Fat Guy became Palace de Fat Guy

  Are housing prices actually going up in New York State? Can you actually sell your house for more money, or is the government just saying you can.

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  Jan. 10, 2009 7:10 a.m. ddavidv SuperDork

  Sorry, but I'm having trouble feeling sorry for this thread with the complete lack of quality cheerleader imagery. So, to get us closer to the thread title whilst still kicking butt with the school, I give you the Ultimate Solution:

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  Jan. 10, 2009 7:34 a.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

  Snowdoggie wrote:

  Wally wrote:

  914Driver wrote:

  Snow, mine gets reassessed almost every year, always up. If your house is worth more you pay more in taxes. I haven't even mowed the lawn for beautification, but they said it's worth $37,000 more than it was 18 months ago.

  Dan

  Thats the New York way. All I did last year was paint the back deck and Casa de Fat Guy became Palace de Fat Guy

  Are housing prices actually going up in New York State? Can you actually sell your house for more money, or is the government just saying you can.

  A few years back there was a reassessment of real estate here in Chucktown. Some values absolutely skyrocketed. One guy put an ad in the paper showing his address, a picture of the house and an astronomical asking price. Below that was the line 'Well, that's what the state says it's worth. Any takers?'

  That's what bugs me about using property taxes to fund stuff: the very real possibility that some people will get put out of their homes by a rise in value triggering a huge jump in property tax. My grandmother's house is paid for but she lives on the retirement funds from my grandfather and honestly if her property taxes doubled we would have to chip in and pay them. She is lucky that we can, if she were on her own she'd be screwed.

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  Jan. 10, 2009 7:56 a.m. Marjorie Suddard General Manager

  Jensenman wrote:

  Back on topic: Margie, the article seems to indicate this could be a statewide thing too.

  Up here, the state constitution mandates a balanced budget every year. What happens: the legislators are a bunch of Bob Costas afraid to make the hard decisions so they created a Budget and Control Board which does nothing but rubber stamp legislation from the 1980s which says that all state agencies must take an across the board cut if there is a projected budget shortfall. That way these jerks don't have to make the hard decisions and then face the voters. So this year all the agencies took a hit of around 8%, IIRC (possibly more to come) and of course that hits the less well off school districts harder.

  Is that what's happening down there?

  I honestly don't know all the ups and downs of how they arrive at their funding figures, but yes, it is a statewide thing: Florida ranks DFL in funding their public schools. And local districts share a disproportionate share of the burden, which is why our district can be tanking while the one next door is at least still operating fairly normally. Here's a link to a story in The Palm Beach Post that explains some of this, if you're interested.

  Margie

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  Jan. 10, 2009 9:13 a.m. Wally UltraDork

  Snowdoggie wrote:

  Wally wrote:

  914Driver wrote:

  Snow, mine gets reassessed almost every year, always up. If your house is worth more you pay more in taxes. I haven't even mowed the lawn for beautification, but they said it's worth $37,000 more than it was 18 months ago.

  Dan

  Thats the New York way. All I did last year was paint the back deck and Casa de Fat Guy became Palace de Fat Guy

  Are housing prices actually going up in New York State? Can you actually sell your house for more money, or is the government just saying you can.

  I couldn't get back what I paid. Prices have dropped about 10% in the 1.5 years I've been here.

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  Jan. 10, 2009 9:38 a.m. Wally UltraDork

  Maybe they are going to school too much. They probably have all the smarts they are going to need already.

  http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/state&id=6593749

  BURBANK, Calif. (KABC) -- Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has proposed shortening the school year by five days to help lessen the state's budget deficit. Nearly 40 percent of the state's budget goes to education. The governor says the five-day reduction will save the state more than $1 billion. The proposal would shrink the school year to 175 days, making California one of the states requiring the fewest number of school days. Teachers and school districts across the state are opposing the move, saying they already have trouble fitting the state's academic standards into the existing 180-day calendar. They say it would take valuable class time away from students.

  For kids that are struggling to even keep up, I'm not quite sure how we're going to get them to recuperate those five days," said Emerson Elementary School principal Linda Acuff. "Well I'm a teacher so for me it's not a big deal because I could do stuff at home," said Saundra Benson. "But as far as cutting teacher pay, you know, that's not something I'm for." "Don't cut the schools, don't cut the schools," said parent Michael Marr. The proposal also creates an issue with teacher contracts. Teacher pay is written into contracts. If Sacramento cuts a week worth of school funding, local school districts will be forced to renegotiate all the contracts. Earlier this week, Los Angeles Unified School District officials told 2,300 teachers that they may be laid off because of budget shortfalls.

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  Jan. 10, 2009 9:42 a.m. SVreX UberDork

  I realize this will fully qualify me as patio filler along with Dave, but here goes.

  Marjorie Suddard wrote:

  Florida ranks DFL in funding their public schools.

  That doesn't sound so terrible to me, as they appear to rank 37th in the nation in educational performance. Especially after considering that they have a disporportionate percentage of retirees, which means a smaller percentage of students as a percentage of the total population.

  Here in GA, we rank 13th in spending, yet get a rating of 42nd for performance. Now that sucks. Plus, half our population seems to be under the age of 18. I'm sure we must rank highest in the nation for number of 30 year old grandmothers.

  The bottom line, as I said before, is it sounds like you've got a right to be pissed. It just sounds like the focus of your frustration should be on local politicians and administrators who have done a terrible job of managing the finances and are now using the housing bust as a convenient scapegoat.
  

  The reality is that the housing bust is not the problem they are now facing. It is the bigger problem they will be facing soon, after they prove their incompetance at handling the current financial crisis.

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  Jan. 10, 2009 1:18 p.m. Marjorie Suddard General Manager

  I'd be happy to put you in my patio (sorry, though, there is a wait for a spot--we're in the busy season), but not fully understanding what your actual point is. Fine, "housing bust" wasn't the most complete and elegant analysis. It is not, however, an irrelevant point. And percentage of retirees is irrelevant; we're DFL in per-pupil spending once you adjust for per-capita income, as well. If you're saying I should be happy that they're doing a lot for a little, clearly they cannot maintain that for any longer, so I'm not. And if you want me to question the administrators or politicians, I fully intend to.

  In the end, though, the problem is that our citizens are not willing to fund the education of our children. And that's small, mean and pathetic.

  Margie

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  Jan. 10, 2009 1:27 p.m. Mental UltraDork

  Unfortunetly I have seen this for years, training always gets cut when there is a budget issue, becuase it's not immeditly visable results. In the military it has been that way since i joined in 91, I have freinds who work in training for the civilian sector and they have the same challenges. No, reading this thread it would appear that this kind of short sighted find the money mentality has now made it to our education system.

  Which really sucks, I am retiring in 4 years (Maybe not now) and was planning on going into education.

  Yes, I recognize the bigger victim is not the guy with a pension starting a 2nd career, but our children, which is kinda why I wanted to be a teacher, I could afford it, I do care about this country and our youth and wanted to continue a career in which I could feel proud of what I do, like I have currently. But with education taking hits across the board, I wonder how long until they start with the hiring freezes, and this will be on top of the teacher leaving droves becuase they are too educated to dine on Top Ramen.

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  Jan. 10, 2009 2:15 p.m. Marjorie Suddard General Manager

  Hiring freeze? We're way past that now. Tommy knows exactly which of his teachers have tenure and which don't, because the teachers have told their students. (The ones who don't are trying to prepare their classes--especially if they teach an intro course where they would be expected to pick up where they left off with many of the same students next year--for their very possible termination at the end of this semester.)

  Margie

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  Jan. 10, 2009 3:29 p.m. AngryCorvair Dork

  Marjorie Suddard wrote:

  In the end, though, the problem is that our citizens are not willing to make the sacrifices required to fund the education of their own children or hold off on breeding until such time that they can afford to provide for their children, education and all. And that's not what Archie Bunker would want us to do.

  fixed, so i can move to the front of the waiting list for Margie's patio.

  i bought into a nice neighborhood so my kids wouldn't grow up around white trash. one cost of that choice, which i fully accept, is that my property taxes are six grand a year. of that, about four grand goes to the public school system. also by my choice, my kids go to private schools at an additional annual cost to me of twelve thousand post-tax dollars. out of necessity, i know where every dollar of my income goes, and believe me when i tell you that they're all spoken for. so when given the choice of sacrificing my children's education for the funding of your children's education, i'm sure you can guess which way i'm going to vote.

  i guess driving a 13-year-old car and brown-bagging lunch every day makes me small mean and pathetic.

  unless you just meant the citizens of Florida, in which case i retract everything i just wrote, and hereby petition you to remove my name from the patio list.

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  Jan. 10, 2009 4:20 p.m. carguy123 Dork

  Just to play devil's advocate. My kids are out of school, why should I pay for your kids to be in school?

  That means I'm paying for something I'll never use. The vast majority (about 2/3) of my taxes are school taxes. How the hell do you ever expect me to be able to retire if I'm having to pay for your kids too.

  I see the need for the school taxes when I am of baby bearing years and have kids, but once they're gone that's kinda like asking me to pay for your kid's college tuition.

  I've always thought that system was flawed even when my kids were reaping the benefit. It doubly sucks if you put your kids in private schools because now you have to pay twice. That's why I LOVE the voucher idea.

  Does this mean you will be adding on to the patio just for me?

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  Jan. 10, 2009 4:27 p.m. racerdave600 Reader

  This is really disturbing and more common in states that fund a lot of programs through property taxes. Real Estate goes through a definite cycle, usually every 18 years, some of them severe, and it's not exactly a hidden secret. Florida in particular has had a rough market for a bit longer than the rest of the nation, partly because their housing prices were blown way out of proportion. Why you would want to fund schools this way is crazy, and no one party has the monopoly on stupidity. Just another example of why letting people who have little knowledge in economics run a government.

  Income tax is a better system in my opinion, but even that is not fool-proof as you can have enough unemployed workers to cause a money shortage, but nothing like what happens when you base it on an artifically inflated entity like the housing market was.
  

  A quick question, does Florida have an education fund, or does it come from the general fund? How Florida divides it's money might make interesting reading.

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  Jan. 10, 2009 4:49 p.m. Xceler8x HalfDork

  Come on guys. Are you trolling or what?

  You both should pay as you benefit from the education other people's children get via tax dollars. It's a net benefit to everyone who lives in this society. Consider the alternative.

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  Jan. 10, 2009 4:51 p.m. Tim Baxter Online Editor

  carguy123 wrote:

  Just to play devil's advocate. My kids are out of school, why should I pay for your kids to be in school?

  Because it's a helluva lot easier and cheaper to educate a kid than to deal with a lifetime of welfare and/or prison.

  Education is key to creating useful, productive members of society.

  We all benefit when as many people as possible are useful and productive members of society.

  Therefore, we all benefit by providing as much education as we can to as many people as we can.

  I can't believe I have to spell it out.

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  Jan. 10, 2009 5:11 p.m. Tommy Suddard

  carguy123 wrote:

  Just to play devil's advocate. My kids are out of school, why should I pay for your kids to be in school?

  That means I'm paying for something I'll never use. The vast majority (about 2/3) of my taxes are school taxes. How the hell do you ever expect me to be able to retire if I'm having to pay for your kids too.

  I see the need for the school taxes when I am of baby bearing years and have kids, but once they're gone that's kinda like asking me to pay for your kid's college tuition.

  I've always thought that system was flawed even when my kids were reaping the benefit. It doubly sucks if you put your kids in private schools because now you have to pay twice. That's why I LOVE the voucher idea.

  Does this mean you will be adding on to the patio just for me?

  Who paid for you're education? In effect, it is deferred payment. You get free education, but you fund the next generation, who funds the next, and so on.

  
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  Jan. 10, 2009 5:13 p.m. Marjorie Suddard General Manager

  Oh, my kids will get an education--didn't I make that clear? They're smart enough to learn and succeed wherever, and I frankly have also made the sacrifices and worked hard enough--and know how to continue to sacrifice and work hard enough--that they'll get where they need to go. I still care that a quality education be available to everybody, though.

  You guys can play devil's advocate, or "I got mine and to hell with everybody else" or whatever else you call it. Good luck with that. And good luck keeping your "nice" neighborhoods "nice." Though I'm not sure I want to live in a world where streets full of that kind of attitude qualifies a place as nice.*

  Margie

  *edited to remove former overly snippy comment because I still like you guys, even if I do really, really disagree with you.

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  Jan. 10, 2009 5:17 p.m. mel_horn HalfDork

  Up here in PA we have been promised alternative methods of school funding for years, the latest has been slot-machine gambling. Four or so years on we have slots but no property tax relief.

  One of the other solutions would be to raise the state sales tax percentage (currently 6%)as well as levying it on other commodities which presently are not taxed. The arguement is then raised that it will be too much of a burden on "lower income" people.

  My kids are both out of school (but my grandchildren are just beginning) and I don't mind funding education. I just mind being the ONLY SEGMENT(property owners) funding education.

  (Do these continuous additions to the patio raise your assessment?)

  BTW, Margie, we need to pour a new basement floor. And no, I don't want to be part of the project...

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  Jan. 10, 2009 7:07 p.m. JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director

  carguy123 wrote:

  Just to play devil's advocate. My kids are out of school, why should I pay for your kids to be in school?

  That means I'm paying for something I'll never use. The vast majority (about 2/3) of my taxes are school taxes. How the hell do you ever expect me to be able to retire if I'm having to pay for your kids too.

  I see the need for the school taxes when I am of baby bearing years and have kids, but once they're gone that's kinda like asking me to pay for your kid's college tuition.

  I've always thought that system was flawed even when my kids were reaping the benefit. It doubly sucks if you put your kids in private schools because now you have to pay twice. That's why I LOVE the voucher idea.

  Does this mean you will be adding on to the patio just for me?

  I'll give you a pass on this because it was written at 4:20. That may explain some of your logic.

  I've really never understood this attitude. Look, I'm all for working hard and keeping what you earn and keeping the gumment as much out of my pockets as anyone, but at some point we're all in this together. I look at it as an investment. I allocate a portion of my income to schools, and in return they make kids smarter so they aren't constantly stealing cars and trying to rape me with tractor parts.

  The "every man for himself" scenario may be appealing to some, but I prefer a society with a bit of order to a world where I'm constantly shooing packs of feral kids off on my property, and fighting the Humongous for a dead rabbit carcass for dinner.

  My wife work in Flagler county, which is one county north of Volusia. She started her teaching career and spent her first five years in Volusia, though. They're notorious for overreacting and making knee-jerk decisions just to appease the peasant hordes with torches. And the superintendent is a world-class idiot. Well, not so much an idiot, but she hasn't got one shred of diplomatic skill anywhere in her body. I think she's going to learn very quickly next week not to get folks riled up and to be careful when making hyperbolic statements. At least, I hope she does.

  jg

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  Jan. 10, 2009 11:11 p.m. Xceler8x HalfDork

  JG Pasterjak wrote:

  ...make kids smarter so they aren't constantly stealing cars and trying to rape me with tractor parts.

  ...and fighting the Humongous for a dead rabbit carcass for dinner.

  JG! You should write comedy! I'm dying over here....

  
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  Jan. 10, 2009 11:40 p.m. carguy123 Dork

  As I said, I was playing Devil's Advocate, but there was a kernel of truth or concern in my statements.

  Being in real estate for over 30 years I understand that if the community prospers then the residents prosper, I am just not completely sure that the present education system is worth the money it costs and wonder why at least a little more of the burden isn't put squarely upon the shoulders of the persons most directly benefiting.

  Public education is more public than education and if you disapprove you have no control or say so in the public education process and then you have to pay twice by putting your kids in private schools. I'm all for giving vouchers that you use the way you see fit and if people don't want to put the vouchers in public school then public schools will disappear and we will have a better quality education and a better quality individual because of a better education.

  I believe public education as it is set up is a monopoly.

  When you are directly benefiting from your tax dollars you tend not to think too much about those who aren't getting direct benefits.

  For so many public schools are a method of baby sitting their little heathens and the whole learning process is short circuited. I want the option to put my kids/grandkids into a system of learning not babysitting just cause it's the law.

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  Jan. 10, 2009 11:50 p.m. Tim Baxter Online Editor

  The funny thing for me is that I have very little love for public schools. I think they're designed to--and excel at--making us good little automatons, happy to stay in the status quo, and NOT questioning it. In other words, pretty much the opposite of real learning and education.

  And yet, I absolutely believe in the necessity of our public schools. I may not like their methods or their results, but I absolutely prefer it to the alternative. And frankly, most people are better off, and much happier, with the status quo anyway.

  Really, I just think people are stupid enough. Anything we can do to make them even slightly less so makes my world a better place.

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  Jan. 11, 2009 12:35 a.m. Mental UltraDork

  carguy123 wrote:

  ...Being in real estate for over 30 years I understand that if the community prospers then the residents prosper, I am just not completely sure that the present education system is worth the money it costs and wonder why at least a little more of the burden isn't put squarely upon the shoulders of the persons most directly benefiting. ...

  The problem with that is you assume the parents of school children have the means to support that burden. So that perpetuates a "poor=uneducated" scenario in which no one improves their status.

  I have no children ( I know of ) and I benefit froma good public school system. Your military benefits from a good public school system. Eventually your college system will benefit from a good public education system. I lived in SC when they were ranked 50th in education and lost a Toyota plant becuase of it. Not everyone goes to college and if a good workforce is not availible, businesses go elsewhere.

  In the end, we all benefit from a good school system. I agree that the return on my investment is a bit disapionting, but I don't mind paying becuase I have seen the alternative both here and abroad. I have also seen public schools that work very well and as a result these countries are kicking the crap out of us economically (even before this current mess happened), and to be honest, I am kinda with Tim on this one. The mere fact we have to spell this out does kind of underscore the need for a proper education system

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