Shop owners/managers... I need you in a huddle

I have been toying around with changing life things.  I have been: a commercial driver, a bartender, fabricator at a hot rod shop, manager of umpteen transmission and general repair shops, actor, singer, technical director for a theater (current job) and a few thousand other things in between.

The current TD job is (or at least was) highly rewarding.  I get to hang out with some of the most awesome community volunteers, I get paid a very modest yearly salary with nice benefits, and I'm really doing neat things with my brain and hands.  But, you know how things get when you're working for a non-profit board and a seemingly revolving door of executive staff.  The condensed version is that the current setup has me working 80+ hours a week, and not only do they consistently ask for more, they never give a E36 M3 when I really come through with something.  Its getting dismal.  As much as I hate to leave the work, I might have to quit the bosses so to speak.

Enter my life's true passion:  Building and modifying cars.  My years working in auto custom shops with the likes of Mercury Charlie, Wil Sakowski, and turning down a job with Troy Ladd, I really got a taste of that world.  I resisted opening my own shop mostly because I saw how it was killing those guys I worked for, and its the real reason I declined a job with Ladd.  Owning your own business (especially one as difficult as a custom shop) is tough enough, but for a guy like me (mr. nice guy) I don't know if I could hack it.  For the most part, I would likely suck at owning a business.  I detest confrontation and usually give in to avoid it.

Enter my life's true calling: being an emotional guide for others.  I started my Master's in Clinical Counseling before I got a divorce, then dropped it to get my life back together.  I was only 1 semester in, so that would be another 3-4 semesters plus clinicals and certification before I could legally really take money to mess with people's heads.  I can't even find the time to cook a meal in my life, let alone spend enough quality time with Baltimore girl so I can't imagine finding the time for even online classes, but I suppose I could switch to being a barista for a couple years to make it happen.

All of that to say... Is there a way to scale back a custom shop and still make a couple bucks?  I'm thinking if I have 15-20 patients a week as a therapist/counselor and fill in the rest of the time with, let's say two cars a year.  Not customer cars, but buy a decent post-war Ford, or a 69 Chevelle, and work on resto-modding them and send them off to an auction or put them on the fairgrounds in Carlisle.  I could also possibly pick up one customer car every once in a while; someone who bought a car at Carlisle and they'll be back next spring to pick it up.

I am not looking to get rich or be the next Coddington or Trepanier unless things happen to go that way.  I want to basically exercise my hobby but make a little money on it.  Truth is, its more or less what I have been doing my whole adulthood: buy a cool car on the cheap, fix it up, sell it for more than I have in it.  I just want to take it to the next level.  Instead of buying a $1000 73 Impala, spending $2000 on fixing it, and selling it for $4000... maybe buy a $5000 51 Merc, put $10k into it, and sell it for $25k.  Eventually maybe work up to buying a $15,000 67 GTO, spend $20k on a restomod, and sell it at Mecum for $60k. Shop space I sorta have figured out.  Not free, but almost free building out of dad's shop on the farm.

And... anyone want a part time job once I get this shop up and running?  

No money in completes, unless you have a rich sugar daddy.  Do a particular task well, and charge a real dollar for it.

Or just get a real job.

Specialise and do one thing incredibly well.

I have to send manifolds all the way to Massachusetts for porcelain coating.

I have to send interior metal parts to California to be woodgrained.

I have to send parts to Alberta to have manufacturers marks re-engraved after they've been destroyed by bad chrome shops. 

I've been through two useless instrument repair guys and I have one good guy who is local but doesn't do restorations, just repairs and one shop in California where the wait is over a year.

For the pre-war specialty stuff, there's often  a huge wait list because the one person in the country that can handle the job is crazy busy and they're all so old that they won't be doing it in another 5-10 years.

In reply to Trans_Maro :

Be that guy !

There is a lady over at Garagejournal  that goes by The Cuda Chick that just passed 10 years in the powder coating business.  I just sent to her website the other day and the multicolor stuff she does is incredible.    Like Transmaro said,  do one thing and do it well.  I knew an old man that at one time was one of the few people that could babbit  bearings.  He was retired and would only do his own, but was constantly contacted by people who wanted him to do theirs.  

If the answer is "do one thing and do it well," then this is not the way for me to go.  When it comes to automotive customization, the only things I don't do well are body work and rebuilding automatic transmission.  Doing one thing is also not the business model of a hot rod/custom shop.  Just like it's not the thing I do as a theater TD.  I have to do it all well in that job.

I'm also NOT a restorer.  TransMaro, when you say pre-war specialty stuff, that doesn't compute to me.  As someone who has been in this business as a fabricator, there is no such thing as specialty stuff.  I have no desire or need to wait for a 37 Ford speedo repair to be a correct restoration when I have a Stewart Warner mechanism that I can stuff into a style-choice 56 Buick bezel and laser cut a walnut dash in an afternoon. (for example).

Obviously, there are a lot of things that aren't profitable for me to do.  I used to build custom wiring harnesses, but with the availability of inexpensive wiring harnesses from the aftermarket, I'll just buy them.  But period-correct restorations have absolutely zero appeal to me.

I also strongly disagree that there is no money in completes.  That was our bread and butter at our shops.  We made excellent money on quick fixes.  Find a classic with appeal, make it unique, safe, and something they can drive home and they'll buy it in a day.  And we could make 5 figures profit easy on higher-end auctions with restomods.  Of course, as a small company without a name I won't be sending cars to Mecum any time soon so I need to stay realistic.

And a certified, licensed health professional with a Master's degree IS A REAL JOB.  Streewiseguy, how much more of a real job do you need than that?

I think if you can do one or two complete cars a year it could be a nice supplement to a real job income.  Take $10000 65-72 A body gm that’s a nice looker but has a turd smog 350, drop an lsx/4l60 combo in it cleanly and toss some 17” ridler wheels on it and you have a car that someone will drool over and pay 30k for because they’re intimidated by the swap or don’t know how to work on cars.  

I was having similar supplemental income thoughts with 73-92 gm trucks.  The initial buy in is lower than muscle cars but the end product has just as many potential buyers.  

Curtis, it seems to me after years of reading your "I need advice on_____", that you dismiss nearly all of the advice provided by people experienced on the very topic about which you've asked for advice, and wind up doing your own thing.  And you're still alive and well, so maybe that's just what works for you.  But because it "doesn't compute for me" doesn't make it untrue or inaccurate.  I wish you well in whichever path you choose

I don't think there is any money in this.  Seems like all the shops that do this fall into 3 or 4 catergories:

1. Shop has a sugardaddy.

2. Shop has an owner who retired from a good job and has a retirement/pension

3. Owner is living the dream and doesn't care so much about making money.

4. Someone has a related specialty business and does some builds on the side. 

That's the view I have owning a weld/fab shop and dealing with and watching these guys on some level. 

AngryCorvair said:

Curtis, it seems to me after years of reading your "I need advice on_____", that you dismiss nearly all of the advice provided by people experienced on the very topic about which you've asked for advice, and wind up doing your own thing.  And you're still alive and well, so maybe that's just what works for you.  But because it "doesn't compute for me" doesn't make it untrue or inaccurate.  I wish you well in whichever path you choose

My weakness is an inability to succinctly say what I'm looking for.  I get wordy and people don't get my intent.

I'm not dismissive of geniune advice.  But the first two answers were not answers to my question.  They were poo-pooing an idea that didn't have any relevance to my topic.  (my fault for not accurately describing what I was looking for), but really... "get a real job" is not a constructive answer.

I come to this forum because you guys are full of creative ways to finding solutions.  But one of my issues with this forum is that sometimes it goes off on a tangent of judgement.  I'm thinking right now about the "best mpg at 90mph" thread that was 60% about how the OP was an immoral pile of crap for driving that fast and clubbing baby seals.

I truly want to hear, "your idea won't work because of [insert empirical evidence]"  But "get a real job" is just combattive and not helpful.  I dismiss it because it is no more constructive than saying "you can't fix your water heater because you have brown eyes."

So, to reiterate what I want to do:

No restorations of any kind
halfway between what I currently do (buy a car and mod it over a couple years and sell for profit) and a full-on custom shop business
Make my hobby and passion into something that pays for itself instead of a money pit
My main source of income will be as a mental health professional

For most of us, our hobby is a money pit.  It is a worthwhile investment for our happiness and sanity, but it usually doesn't pay us back.  The far side of that equation is someone who has a high-profile race team who makes profit.  I'm shooting for something in the middle like a mid-level race team where the sponsorships and winnings at least fund the hobby.  Just translate that to auto customizing instead of racing.

I also lean towards the "do one thing" principle. I worked with a guy who had a friend and all he did was hot rod electrical work.  I gather it was mostly part-time, but he had a steady stream of projects to do.  Personally, I would love to do interiors. However, this is what I'd like to do as a "retirement job" - something to keep me busy and provide some extra $$, but not a job I would have to rely on to put food on the table.

I agree an "all in one" shop would be tough. I just don't see how one or two guys could work enough hours in a week to get enough cars through the shop to make a living. Even those shops have dept specialists. So you end up with quite a few employees.  And then you need to make sure to keep a steady flow of work through the shop.  Sounds pretty damn stressful to me and after getting a "behind the scenes" look at one of these shops in action (long story), I know for sure it's stressful.

If you are good at bodywork and paint, then do bodywork and paint. There are a ton of folks out there with project cars in need of rust repair and paint, but who don't have the funds to do a full-on restoration and would prefer to do mechanical and general assembly themselves.  I know a fellow in York who pretty much does this and makes a pretty decent living off it. Works by himself in his home shop that he built and fitted out while he was working as a dealer body guy, picking up various tools at auctions and whatnot. 

How are finished customs/rods valued? As far as I can tell, if I pay someone $50k to build a car, I don't have a $50k car when I'm done. You make money as a shop by letting someone else eat that cost difference. 

Thanks Ian.  I like the "do one thing" as a business model and I would certainly farm out the things I can't do (like body work... I suck at it) but I see no reason to farm out things that I can do myself.  For instance I could buy crate engines, but I see no reason when I can build engines myself for far less money.  The machine work I would farm out because it makes no sense for me to get the education and a half a million dollars of machinery to do it myself.

I just want to take what I already do and step it up a notch so that it pays for itself

(unless it can't which is why I'm here bouncing the idea off of you guys)

mazdeuce - Seth said:

How are finished customs/rods valued? As far as I can tell, if I pay someone $50k to build a car, I don't have a $50k car when I'm done. You make money as a shop by letting someone else eat that cost difference. 

Very good question.  They aren't valued by much other than what it's worth to the customer.  I had one customer who brought me a barn-find 68 Camaro RS with 17k miles who spent $40k turning it into a V6 daily driver with air ride that got 26 mpg.  He could have sold his barn find for $50k and bought a Corolla, but he took a $50k Camaro and made it worthless.  But its what he wanted.

So you're right, but so far I haven't lost any money on things I've built for myself.  I'm hoping I can take that talent up a notch.

jamscal said:

I don't think there is any money in this.  Seems like all the shops that do this fall into 3 or 4 catergories:

1. Shop has a sugardaddy.

2. Shop has an owner who retired from a good job and has a retirement/pension

3. Owner is living the dream and doesn't care so much about making money.

4. Someone has a related specialty business and does some builds on the side. 

That's the view I have owning a weld/fab shop and dealing with and watching these guys on some level. 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't disagree.  I would say I'm part of category 3 and part category 4.  Category 3 not because I'm rich, but I do have most of the expensive stuff already in place; a free shop, most of the tools I need, and the talent/experience I need.  Category 4 because I used to work in the industry, so my side business is just displaced by a decade of time.

Curtis, please tell me how I was "poo pooing" your idea?

You asked for ideas for something car related from shop managers, that's what I gave you.

Please, don't read anything in to my post. I don't think you have a bad idea but be aware that there are plenty of other guys doing the same thing. 

I've been in automotive since I was 10 years old.  If you want to do custom work and finished cars you will need to either get good at body work or get someone who is.    Sad to say but there are tons of people doing engine/trans swaps out there.  Most setups can be found on the internet with helpful people telling how to do them.  It's the custom body touches that make a car worth the extra $$$.  More and more bolt on modifications are being made all the time for swaps and setups that wouldn't have been dreamed of years ago.  The real money is in working on someone else's car and them paying you by the hour to get it done.  Yes tou can make a side income doing swaps yourself, but it won't make a good living (that will vary depending on where you live).

Curtis,  I am in a similar position to what you are looking to do (small shop owner)  and I can tell you that just about everyone in this thread is right.  The only money is when someone else is paying you by the hour to work on their stuff.  And the only way to get that is to have a website with good Google reviews or to have enough cars on the street that will get you have a known reputation, and that takes time and money.

If you want to to do flips, make sure you pick ones that are not projects. To me a project needs restoration to two out of the three: body/paint, mechanical, or interior.  If you can find a car that needs one of these things and repair it for cheap, that is where you profit is.  

I also recommend trying to find a niche market. For example sticking to first gen mustangs or pre 66 volkswagens, etc.  I know it is not as eclectic as you would like but you will build a following with that group and show up as a recommendation on their forums and meets.

I have tried to model myself after the guy in the movie "True Lies" not the Arnold super spy character but the slimey used car guy-minus the slime of course.  I buy cars that are fun to drive and play/improve them for a bit and then pass them on to another lucky caretaker.  I dont always make money but i have owned a fun list of cars that gets longer all the time.

Maybe do psych work in the morning in the winter, shop work in the afternoon and reverse it in the summer?

Trans_Maro said:

Curtis, please tell me how I was "poo pooing" your idea?

You asked for ideas for something car related from shop managers, that's what I gave you.

Please, don't read anything in to my post. I don't think you have a bad idea but be aware that there are plenty of other guys doing the same thing. 

Its cool.  You weren't really poo pooing, I just overreacted.  Apologies.

Pattyo said:

I have tried to model myself after the guy in the movie "True Lies" not the Arnold super spy character but the slimey used car guy-minus the slime of course.  I buy cars that are fun to drive and play/improve them for a bit and then pass them on to another lucky caretaker.  I dont always make money but i have owned a fun list of cars that gets longer all the time.

This is exactly what I want to do.  In fact, its what I already do I just want to up the ante a bit.

As I'm sure you already know, the profit is when you buy the car.  I have gotten to be pretty cutthroat when it comes to negotiating- i have made more than one person cry...but I don't force anyone to take my offer. The moral of the story is dont do drugs kids....   I am pretty diligent about checking Craigslist and the local tow yards and have a few friends with dealers licenses that allow me to check the inventory at the big auctions.  sometimes running a want ad on craigslist "I buy old cars, cash" gets a few good leads.

Totally out of left field, but hear me out...

.

Resto-Mod small campers. They can be purchased for a song, and sell for big bucks. Being a set builder, and from a Northern State,I assume you are a Norm Abrams level carpenter. You could farm out paint.

Curtis said:

If the answer is "do one thing and do it well," then this is not the way for me to go.  When it comes to automotive customization, the only things I don't do well are body work and rebuilding automatic transmission.  Doing one thing is also not the business model of a hot rod/custom shop.  Just like it's not the thing I do as a theater TD.  I have to do it all well in that job.

I'm also NOT a restorer.  TransMaro, when you say pre-war specialty stuff, that doesn't compute to me.  As someone who has been in this business as a fabricator, there is no such thing as specialty stuff.  I have no desire or need to wait for a 37 Ford speedo repair to be a correct restoration when I have a Stewart Warner mechanism that I can stuff into a style-choice 56 Buick bezel and laser cut a walnut dash in an afternoon. (for example).

Obviously, there are a lot of things that aren't profitable for me to do.  I used to build custom wiring harnesses, but with the availability of inexpensive wiring harnesses from the aftermarket, I'll just buy them.  But period-correct restorations have absolutely zero appeal to me.

 

And a certified, licensed health professional with a Master's degree IS A REAL JOB.  Streewiseguy, how much more of a real job do you need than that?

 

 

You didn't list any actual time doing this real job.  I got the impression you were at least a couple of years away from this real job, from your first post.  I counted a dozen or so previous jobs, which means you average out to less than two years per job.  What makes you think these two new ones will hold your interest any further?

You live in a very different world than I.  My parents are dead, didn't leave me very much other than well prepared for the big old world.  I am responsible fpr alimony until I'm 65, I have gotten one daughter through nursing school, and the second is hopefully going to make vet college next year. I have three long time employees, who kinda count on me keeping the doors open. I have enough money to not starve to death if I sell my business at 65, and have enough body left to keep working for another five years or so afterwards.  I have no idea what you stand to receive later in life.  I have no idea whether you are aware that thirty years of life post retirement, or post-your ability to work, is a pretty darn expensive proposition. 

I don't have the time to be a dreamer.  If you want to build hot rods, go ahead.  I stand by my statement that there isn't a living wage to be made from it as you propose.  Finish your masters, get a real job, and build a hot rod or two in your spare time.  Or don't.  It really doesn't make a whit of difference to me.  You asked advice, I gave.  It was free, and worth every dime you paid for it.

Curtis said:

Trans_Maro said:

Curtis, please tell me how I was "poo pooing" your idea?

You asked for ideas for something car related from shop managers, that's what I gave you.

Please, don't read anything in to my post. I don't think you have a bad idea but be aware that there are plenty of other guys doing the same thing. 

Its cool.  You weren't really poo pooing, I just overreacted.  Apologies.

No worries man, thanks.

I like the "resto-mod trailer" idea. Vintage travel trailers are really popular out here on the left coast. Might be a fun business to get into.

Vintage campers are really hot right now. You could hotrod them so to speak and the set making skills you have would fall right into it.