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  • ignorant

    Nov. 18, 2009 4:59 a.m. ignorant PowerDork

    MitchellC wrote:

    Many who lived in Central or South America from the sixties to the eighties would probably like to say something about this. Our past isn't so squeaky clean.

    This is what I'm driving at; You need to go deeper into this current problem. Saying they hate us because we are tolerant is a Faux News soundbyte and thats all.

    Here's some quick thoughts:

    1. Look at the Treaty of Versailles and how the Mid East was divided up and then put back together. How many Ethnic Enemies did we now put under one government? How much crap did we give away to Ibn Saud? Why?

    2. This is the big one...... In any decade, look at who we are arming at the current moment? We have armed just about every dictator in that area at any given times. Once we achieved whatever goal we wanted to by arming said dictator, what did he do with those U.S. Government weapons? How does it look to an average towns person in that area to have the US come in and support a man/beast who just terrorizes his own people? Does this make us look like hypocrites to those towns people(hint... yes)? Does it look like we're throwing our might around and running their country by being such imperial pigs? (maybe)

    Sorry if the above seems all self righteous, it's not supposed to be. I just want to ask some questions so some people do some thinking on their own. Theres a reason why we're hated, and it's not because of the religion.

    An old Lebonese professor, I had, once said something to the effect of: "the Mid East has been around longer than your country has been around. They don't forget anything. It can take 100 years before you see the repercussions of your actions there.. " (I think I horribly butchered the quote, but the gist is right)

  • racerfink

    Nov. 18, 2009 11:01 a.m. racerfink New Reader

    Yeah, remember all those Central Americans that tried to bomb the Empire State Building?

    BTW, as soon as you said "Faux" news, you lost all credibility.

  • Jensenman

    Nov. 18, 2009 11:25 a.m. Jensenman MegaDork

    ignorant wrote:

    MitchellC wrote:

    Many who lived in Central or South America from the sixties to the eighties would probably like to say something about this. Our past isn't so squeaky clean.

    This is what I'm driving at; You need to go deeper into this current problem. Saying they hate us because we are tolerant is a Faux News soundbyte and thats all.

    Here's some quick thoughts:

    1. Look at the Treaty of Versailles and how the Mid East was divided up and then put back together. How many Ethnic Enemies did we now put under one government? How much crap did we give away to Ibn Saud? Why?

    2. This is the big one...... In any decade, look at who we are arming at the current moment? We have armed just about every dictator in that area at any given times. Once we achieved whatever goal we wanted to by arming said dictator, what did he do with those U.S. Government weapons? How does it look to an average towns person in that area to have the US come in and support a man/beast who just terrorizes his own people? Does this make us look like hypocrites to those towns people(hint... yes)? Does it look like we're throwing our might around and running their country by being such imperial pigs? (maybe)

    Sorry if the above seems all self righteous, it's not supposed to be. I just want to ask some questions so some people do some thinking on their own. Theres a reason why we're hated, and it's not because of the religion.

    An old Lebonese professor, I had, once said something to the effect of: "the Mid East has been around longer than your country has been around. They don't forget anything. It can take 100 years before you see the repercussions of your actions there.. " (I think I horribly butchered the quote, but the gist is right)

    Your Lebanese professor hit right at the heart of it. They won't forget. And that is the root of their problems.

    During WWII, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor even after we had pursued a 'hands off' policy toward both Asia and Europe. After that, we whooped German, Italian and Japanese ass. We dropped two A bombs on Japan (and yes I feel that was necessary to end that war). We (along with the British) firebombed Dresden, some say that was actually worse than the A bombs.

    So now who are our biggest trading partners (next to the Chinese, that is)? Have you checked out the number of Japanese and German companies which have built plants here thus supplying Americans with jobs?

    Did they (and we) choose to sulk and nurse their grudges or did they decide to get their act together and become productive members of the world?

    Where do the Arabs get off pissing and moaning today about events from antiquity? I'd say it's time for them to grow up and join the rest of humanity in trying to create rather than destroy. Until then I don't really have a lot of sympathy for their situation.

    About South America: you might want to look into the Puerto Rican separatists who attacked the US Capitol building. Yeah, I know they are sorta our state, but humor me.

  • oldsaw

    Nov. 18, 2009 11:26 a.m. oldsaw HalfDork

    racerfink wrote:

    Yeah, remember all those Central Americans that tried to bomb the Empire State Building?

    BTW, as soon as you said "Faux" news, you lost all credibility.

    Nah, Ig makes some salient points every now and then.

    He loses some credibility by critiquing those who simply have different viewpoints and summarily dismisses them - sometimes while displaying his shiny, happy person attitude.

  • Drewsifer

    Nov. 18, 2009 12:17 p.m. Drewsifer New Reader

    Ignorant, you are correct. Iraq is a country that exists because of misguided attempts at Empire building. And you are right, many problems that are here today can be traced to US or UK meddling in things that didn't involve us. However, I don't think the sin of our fathers give them the right to kill us. I know that isn't what your saying, I'm just saying.

  • ignorant

    Nov. 18, 2009 5:13 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

    racerfink wrote:

    BTW, as soon as you said "Faux" news, you lost all credibility.

    chill out.. I'm just going rogue...

  • ignorant

    Nov. 18, 2009 5:15 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

    Drewsifer wrote:

    However, I don't think the sin of our fathers give them the right to kill us.

    I agree.

  • oldsaw

    Nov. 18, 2009 6:17 p.m. oldsaw HalfDork

    Jensenman wrote:

    About South America: you might want to look into the Puerto Rican separatists who attacked the US Capitol building. Yeah, I know they are sorta our state, but humor me.

    Interesting that AG Holder was a proponent to grant clemency to the FALN - a Puerto Rican terrorist group dedicated to Marxist-Leninist principles and for total independence for P.R.. His advocation for dismissing charges against FALN was done while he was deputy AG in the Clinton administration.

    Mr. Holder's checkered past also includes a major role in the pardoning of Marc Rich. He (Mr. Rich) is a convicted racketeer and tax evader, whose wife was a major contributor to the Clinton Library, the Democrat party and Clinton's legal defense fund.

    It's so re-assuring that the climate of corruption in Washington, DC has been obliterated by "O" and his subordinates.

  • NYG95GA

    Nov. 18, 2009 7:16 p.m. NYG95GA SuperDork

    Jensenman wrote:

    Where do the Arabs get off pissing and moaning today about events from antiquity? I'd say it's time for them to grow up and join the rest of humanity in trying to create rather than destroy. Until then I don't really have a lot of sympathy for their situation.

    Amen.

    Based on an ill-timed roll in the hay by Abraham, with his sevant girl Hagar (at his wife Sarah's urging), Ishmael was born before Sarah bore Issac. When Sarah bade Abraham to cast out Hager and her son, the Feud of All Feuds was born: the Jews the sons of Issac, the Arabs the sons of Ishmael.

    This was about a gazillion years ago, and it's easy to see how far they've come to patching up differences.

  • Wally

    Nov. 19, 2009 1:54 a.m. Wally UberDork

    ignorant wrote:

    racerfink wrote:

    BTW, as soon as you said "Faux" news, you lost all credibility.

    chill out.. I'm just going rogue...

    If you were half that cute we could excuse your rantings.

    I would like everyone who keeps saying the trial needs to be in NY so we can have some "closure" to stop. Having this circus here is not going to suddenly make everyone forget what happened and help those who still have problems dealing with it. What would help would be if we kept this nonsense somewhere else so we wouldn't have vans full of heavily armed and armored men pop up as a show of force and if we didn't need the radiation detector truck doing laps of the neighborhood looking for a glowing suitcase

  • ignorant

    Nov. 19, 2009 5:00 a.m. ignorant PowerDork

    Wally wrote:

    If you were half that cute we could excuse your rantings.

    Nope.. The only excuse is the fact that I'm a liberal elite who believes the MSM 100%. I'm also not a regular American. I've been told so by conservatives. I don't have a john deere and I don't worship Reagan. Those are my excuses and I'm sticking to them.

  • Jensenman

    Nov. 19, 2009 8:21 a.m. Jensenman MegaDork

    Wat?!?!? No John Deere? Delta is ready when you are.

  • Wally

    Nov. 19, 2009 9:04 a.m. Wally UberDork

    At least you know it, and knowing is half the battle.

  • slefain

    Nov. 19, 2009 9:18 a.m. slefain Dork

    ignorant wrote:

    racerfink wrote:

    BTW, as soon as you said "Faux" news, you lost all credibility.

    chill out.. I'm just going rogue...

    I'm just gonna pull a Palin and quit.

  • joey48442

    Nov. 19, 2009 10:04 a.m. joey48442 SuperDork

    Guys! You can't just quit! I'm sure there are some high government officials (on both sides of the isle) waiting to hear how this thread pans out!

    Joey

  • oldsaw

    Nov. 19, 2009 11:07 a.m. oldsaw HalfDork

    joey48442 wrote:

    Guys! You can't just quit! I'm sure there are some high government officials (on both sides of the isle) waiting to hear how this thread pans out!

    Joey

    There's little evidence any of them care anything about what anyone thinks.

    They're all auditioning for the reality series "Ideologies Gone FAIL", a straight-to-DVD release debuting in November, 2010.

  • Jensenman

    Nov. 19, 2009 11:21 a.m. Jensenman MegaDork

    Yeah, I'd say they are too busy shoving change that's based on moonbeams and wishful thinking down our throats to pay attention to the real world.

  • ignorant

    Nov. 19, 2009 5:04 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

    Jensenman wrote:

    Yeah, I'd say they are too busy shoving change that's based on moonbeams and wishful thinking down our throats to pay attention to the real world.

    This would be true if they'd actually do something, instead of being stuck in analysis paralysis.

  • RX Reven'

    Nov. 19, 2009 5:17 p.m. RX Reven' Reader

    Receiving a 2,000 page bill a few hours in advance of the vote doesn’t equate to analysis paralysis. Even if the 72 hour rule is honored, three eighteen hour back-to-back days of no stop reading will only allow 97 seconds per page. Have fun finding the multi billion dollar needles in that hay stack. No, this isn’t analysis paralysis, this is data dumping plain and simple.

  • Kia_racer

    Nov. 19, 2009 5:18 p.m. Kia_racer Reader

    ^here here

  • ignorant

    Nov. 19, 2009 5:36 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

    RX Reven' wrote:

    Receiving a 2,000 page bill a few hours in advance of the vote doesn’t equate to analysis paralysis. Even if the 72 hour rule is honored, three eighteen hour back-to-back days of no stop reading will only allow 97 seconds per page. Have fun finding the multi billion dollar needles in that hay stack. No, this isn’t analysis paralysis, this is data dumping plain and simple.

    ummm... I blame the fact that they released the bill late on the fact that they were stuck in analysis paralysis...

    If you want to read into more devious BS ideas... I'll make a tin foil hat for you and send it your way If you'd like to mail me a SASE.

  • oldsaw

    Nov. 19, 2009 5:54 p.m. oldsaw HalfDork

    Hey, this latest turn of events has nothing to do with terrorists on trial. Let's resurrect the health-care thread and have at it.

    Iggy, throwing the "tin-foil hat" reference ignores all the history that proves hastily thrown together legislation always results in billions more in expenditures.

    You can do better...........

  • ignorant

    Nov. 19, 2009 6:21 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

    oldsaw wrote:

    Iggy, throwing the "tin-foil hat" reference ignores all the history that proves hastily thrown together legislation always results in billions more in expenditures.

    I wasn't trying to pass judgment on the type of bill etc.. I merely want to say that the current administration is very afraid of making the wrong move and therefore dosen't make any moves until the very last minute. It's poor leadership at best.

  • RX Reven'

    Nov. 19, 2009 6:42 p.m. RX Reven' Reader

    Hi Ignorant,

    I suspect that even among devout President Obama supporters, the overwhelming majority realize that providing a phenomenally short amount of time to read bills before voting is a fully intentional maneuver meant to deny debate. You’re welcome to applaud the President’s tactics if you feel debate would be unproductive but to say it isn’t intentional is pretty darn ridiculous.

    I mean, come on man, really, you don’t get it?

  • oldsaw

    Nov. 19, 2009 10:36 p.m. oldsaw HalfDork

    ignorant wrote:

    I merely want to say that the current administration is very afraid of making the wrong move and therefore dosen't make any moves until the very last minute. It's poor leadership at best.

    No doubt there are a lot of voters who are questioning the mindset of the administration.

    Now is a seminal moment for the President. He and his minions have been in a partisan campaign mode since his inauguration instead of taking the role as leader of a diverse electorate.

    Is he, or is he not, the candidate who campaigned on a centrist platform, seeking a bi-partisan union? Is he a President who leads the country or follows elements of his party?

    At this point he comes across as Carter-lite, with better looks, better speech writers and the support of the "fourth estate" that has diminished itself by half.

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