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Bobcougarzillameister
Bobcougarzillameister MegaDork
12/22/17 11:35 a.m.

I really don't get all the hate towards the movie. I really enjpyed it. MAybe I'm not taking it "Seriously" enough?

pheller
pheller PowerDork
12/22/17 12:22 p.m.
gearheadE30 said:

Seems like they did all of the characterization of the main cast in that movie and then did very little to expand on it in this one, so having that movie to go off of would have probably made the characters more relatable.

Overall, I don't understand why this wasn't split into two movies. That way, they could have actually let the audience breathe every once in awhile, and they could have spent more time developing the story. It had the right points I think, but wasn't fleshed out well, and the constant rush through every scene took away from the suspense.

I guess ultimately it seemed like too much of the movie jumped past critical points too quickly.

This. 

I feel like we're getting rushed through what are supposed to be the last 3 episode of a 9 episode storyline, and yet, the last 3 really has very little to do with the first 6. Rogue One did a great job of tying together stories, but the final 7-8-9 is just 4-5-6 with some old character cameos. There isn't any "building" happening, and that's disappointing. 

I do feel like if Snoke had some relationship to Vader and Sidious, it would tie things together better. We could get more "ohhhhh" moments. Snoke is Emperor redue but killed more pathetically, but unlike Sidious we don't know ANY backstory. 

What I thought they might do is have Luke go all Grey Jedi and instead try to kill Kylo he tries to redeem him. No, instead the movie makes Kylo out to be the ultimate unredeemable bad guy. If Kylo is redeemed somehow it could tie together the "balance" plot, but I highly doubt that'll be the case. In fact, I think we're going to get a final "Knights of Ren" vs "Jedi Knights" battle. It wouldn't surprise me if the next movie isn't set 5-10 years in the future with Rey being older, finding other Jedi, and Kylo doing the same. 

Leia almost dies, but doesnt, only to do pretty much nothing of importance the rest of the movie. They had a great opportunity to kill off the character in a shocking, tragic scene, but now they'll have CGI her in order to have die in some other way. Maybe they'll just try do the whole "she died off camera of old age with big funeral" or something. I dunno how they're gonna swing it. 

The jokes and humor were new additions, but I'm not sure they are needed. I'd rather get more character development than a few wisecracks. 

It's a beautiful movie that is great entertainment, much like New Trek, and like New Trek, some of the endearing qualities of the Star Wars universe are being left out of these new films.

People are eating up the "world building" films recently, and Marvel is great example of this. 

Disney doesn't need to rush Star Wars, but it is.

 

 

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess MegaDork
12/22/17 12:31 p.m.

Do they sell the cute little rats yet?  The ones Chewie likes?

Duke
Duke MegaDork
12/22/17 2:39 p.m.

In reply to gearheadE30 :

In the recent couple SWs, there has been such a weird time dilation thing going on. There are these huge epic things going on, but it seems unbelievably compressed in real time. I don’t mean that the action is nonstop, I mean that apparently a very short amount of time elapses from beginning to end. At some point in this movie they mention having about 6 hours’ worth of fuel left... and that’s before Finn and his new girlfriend go off on their pointless galavant to a strange planet halfway across the galaxy to find some hacker they know almost nothing about. And yet they manage to travel there, locate the original guy, lose the original guy, get locked up, find a substitute hacker guy, travel back, get secretly sold out, etc etc etc. before that 6 hours is up.

Not to mention Rey spending what seemed like days at Luke’s place, while the rest of the rebels seemed to spend about 36 hours.

There was the same effect in TFA. All of that epic stuff took place in what seemed like 24 hours. R1 didn’t suffer from it quite as badly, but still the apparent elapsed time didn’t feel right, like it did in I-VI. Those had a certain galactic pace to them. Even if it wasn’t depicted, there was apparent strategic time spent gathering forces and bringing the pieces into play. That sense is severely missing from VII-VIII. 

barefootskater
barefootskater Reader
12/22/17 3:08 p.m.

In reply to Bobcougarzillameister :

Me too. I thoroughly enjoyed it. planning to see it again and buy it as soon as it becomes available. 

Are there flaws? Of course there are. Was it a good story, fun to watch, entertaining? Absolutely.

Anybody looking for perfection out of Hollywood is always going to find something to complain about. Everyone I know that is into star wars became a fan around the age of 10 +/-. Look at this movie through the eyes of yourself at ten and see if you don't think it was great. Ten year old me would be begging to go back and see it every day, and that is good enough for 29 year old me.

did  look forward to finding out more about Snoke though...

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
12/22/17 5:57 p.m.
Bobcougarzillameister said:

I really don't get all the hate towards the movie. I really enjpyed it. MAybe I'm not taking it "Seriously" enough?

I enjoyed it too. I'm just bothered because I care about Star Wars, and want to see it be Great.

What bugs me is that there is a lot of wasted potential there. They could have easily made one or two Really Good or possibly even Great movies, but they weren't willing to put the extra effort in to do it. They were fine giving us something Good Enough.

We aren't critical of people and things that don't have potential. We're critical of people and things that have the most potential and are too lazy to actual live up to it.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
12/24/17 12:02 p.m.

We finally saw it last night. I enjoyed it and. Call is Empire Strikes Back Pt 2, I don't care. Luke! Chewbacca! Even Yoda! The Aluminum Falcon!

I saw this as a good explanation regarding why Snoke's back story wasn't shared:

The Last Jedi director Rian Johnson killed off Snoke as it was deemed necessary to advance Kylo Ren with a compelling set-up for Episode IX. When asked if he ever planned to elaborate on Snoke's back-story, Johnson replied, "It would have stopped any of these scenes dead cold if he had stopped and given a 30-second speech about how he's Darth Plagueis. It doesn't matter to Rey. If he had done that, Rey would have blinked and said, 'Who?' And the scene would have gone on. [pause] And I'm not saying he's Darth Plagueis!"[25]

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
12/24/17 12:04 p.m.

A good, related question from my brother.

His wife would like to rewatch the original trilogy. Do they start with Rogue One? While it sets up Episodes 4-6, it certainly starts things on a sad note. Maybe watch Rogue One as a flashback between 4 and 5? 

yupididit
yupididit SuperDork
12/24/17 12:31 p.m.

Anyone watch in this order yet? 

Episode 1, 2, clone wars cartoon, 3, rebels cartoon, rough one, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
12/24/17 12:35 p.m.
David S. Wallens said:

A good, related question from my brother.

His wife would like to rewatch the original trilogy. Do they start with Rogue One? While it sets up Episodes 4-6, it certainly starts things on a sad note. Maybe watch Rogue One as a flashback between 4 and 5? 

Perhaps a flash back. I would not want to watch Rogue 1 before watching 4.

vwcorvette
vwcorvette SuperDork
12/24/17 2:14 p.m.
Beer Baron said:
David S. Wallens said:

A good, related question from my brother.

His wife would like to rewatch the original trilogy. Do they start with Rogue One? While it sets up Episodes 4-6, it certainly starts things on a sad note. Maybe watch Rogue One as a flashback between 4 and 5? 

Perhaps a flash back. I would not want to watch Rogue 1 before watching 4.

Why?  I think it sets a mood for the premise of A New Hope that is missing otherwise.  To me it makes the happenings in ANH that much more pressing. 

loosecannon
loosecannon Dork
12/24/17 2:28 p.m.

We enjoyed the latest movie but went out for dinner with some hard core Star Wars fans who loathed it. I have determined that it is similar to how, as a hard core car guy, I watch a movie like The Transporter 2 and get really angry over scenes like when he flips the car upside down off a ramp and hits a hook that knocks a bomb off the car. To a non-car guy, there's nothing wrong with that scene but I found it egregious.  To somebody really into Star Wars, some of the scenes of this latest movie will really piss them off. My friend had all kinds of reasons why it sucked and even said it was worse than the one with Jar-Jar.

yupididit
yupididit SuperDork
12/24/17 7:14 p.m.
loosecannon said:

We enjoyed the latest movie but went out for dinner with some hard core Star Wars fans who loathed it. I have determined that it is similar to how, as a hard core car guy, I watch a movie like The Transporter 2 and get really angry over scenes like when he flips the car upside down off a ramp and hits a hook that knocks a bomb off the car. To a non-car guy, there's nothing wrong with that scene but I found it egregious.  To somebody really into Star Wars, some of the scenes of this latest movie will really piss them off. My friend had all kinds of reasons why it sucked and even said it was worse than the one with Jar-Jar.

 

Some people take it too seriously. Or get mad when something isn't done the way THEY think it should be. But, Disney is the owner of Star Wars so it can't be done wrong. Anyway I'm a HUGE Star Wars fan and didn't loath the movie at all. 

vwcorvette
vwcorvette SuperDork
12/24/17 7:24 p.m.
yupididit said:
loosecannon said:

We enjoyed the latest movie but went out for dinner with some hard core Star Wars fans who loathed it. I have determined that it is similar to how, as a hard core car guy, I watch a movie like The Transporter 2 and get really angry over scenes like when he flips the car upside down off a ramp and hits a hook that knocks a bomb off the car. To a non-car guy, there's nothing wrong with that scene but I found it egregious.  To somebody really into Star Wars, some of the scenes of this latest movie will really piss them off. My friend had all kinds of reasons why it sucked and even said it was worse than the one with Jar-Jar.

 

Some people take it too seriously. Or get mad when something isn't done the way THEY think it should be. But, Disney is the owner of Star Wars so it can't be done wrong. Anyway I'm a HUGE Star Wars fan and didn't loath the movie at all. 

As the owner of a Red 2 with "Wedge" on the license plate I consider myself hardcore.  I really liked it.  A lot.  I have no pre conceived notions about the way the storys should pan out. Fanboys however think their ideas should be the only path. 

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
12/24/17 10:09 p.m.

You should distance yourself from anyone who thinks this is worse than Episode I, because that person is unstable and is likely to hurt themselves and innocent bystanders.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
12/25/17 8:57 a.m.
vwcorvette said:
Beer Baron said:
David S. Wallens said:

A good, related question from my brother.

His wife would like to rewatch the original trilogy. Do they start with Rogue One? While it sets up Episodes 4-6, it certainly starts things on a sad note. Maybe watch Rogue One as a flashback between 4 and 5? 

Perhaps a flash back. I would not want to watch Rogue 1 before watching 4.

Why?  I think it sets a mood for the premise of A New Hope that is missing otherwise.  To me it makes the happenings in ANH that much more pressing. 

A New Hope was not missing anything in terms of mood or anything like that. The crawl immediately followed by the space chase/battle overhead is a great opening. A New Hope stands perfectly well on its own.

I think the ending of Rogue 1 takes something away from Vader. Showing him using lots of force powers was fan service, but I think would blunt the impact of his entrance. His entrance is much stronger just striding in out of the smoke and being in charge.

It also blunts the symbolic significance of light saber battles. In the original trilogy, every time people get into fights with light sabers, it is a big deal that marks a major point of character arc and story arc development. Vader going to town looks cool, but isn't really symbolic of anything. It will change the mood and expectation when he and Obi Wan get into that first light saber fight. It will blunt the feeling of, "oh E36 M3. This conflict has come to a head," and instead set up an expectation that you will see badass choreography and big displays of force power. This will be a let down. Same thing with the very first time he force chokes the officer in the conference room. It will blunt the significance of that.

Rogue 1 is also about something different and will significantly change the mood and themes. The numbered episodes are a grand space opera about the family tribulations of a family of demigods. They are grand and mythological. Rogue 1 is about the death and destruction of common people left in the wake of the family squabbles of these deities. By opening with Rogue 1, you change the tone to be about how horrible it is that all the nameless soldiers sacrifice themselves. You also blunt the impact of Rogue 1 because you watch it without the set up. You don't get to fully realize that all this death is a scar the Skywalker family has left across the galaxy. Which brings us full circle to Vader cutting down common soldiers. *Now* that scene has symbolic significance. It's not just a bad guy being badass. It's a Skywalker who is one with the force leaving death in his wake while he strides unfazed through the common people.

Best place to watch Rogue 1 will be after Return of the Jedi, before Force Awakens.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
12/25/17 9:04 a.m.
loosecannon said:

We enjoyed the latest movie but went out for dinner with some hard core Star Wars fans who loathed it. I have determined that it is similar to how, as a hard core car guy, I watch a movie like The Transporter 2 and get really angry over scenes like when he flips the car upside down off a ramp and hits a hook that knocks a bomb off the car. To a non-car guy, there's nothing wrong with that scene but I found it egregious.  To somebody really into Star Wars, some of the scenes of this latest movie will really piss them off. My friend had all kinds of reasons why it sucked and even said it was worse than the one with Jar-Jar.

I really like Star Wars, but I'm not a super fan. Just like when I watch car movies or period pieces, I can suspend my disbelief over things I know are inconsistent with the lore.

This one bugged me because the pacing and storytelling was a mess. I can set aside that they haven't set up the force being able to work in ways that they use it in the film. But I can't set aside Luke behaving in ways that are not consistent with his *character* behavior.

It's like... if you were watching Star Trek. It doesn't matter if they encounter a tachyon field or some other space-mumbo-jumbo that behaves in a way that isn't consistent with the way the mumbo-jumbo behaved in a previous episode. But if you saw Kirk shaking frozen in hopelessness when the Enterprise was facing certain destruction, you'd know that wasn't right.

yupididit
yupididit SuperDork
12/25/17 9:56 a.m.

Failure and shame will do that to the strongest of men.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
12/26/17 11:04 a.m.
yupididit said:

Failure and shame will do that to the strongest of men.

But... that's not Luke's character. That's one of the things that makes him such a great hero. He fails embarrassingly or shamefully a LOT, and he keeps coming back. He learns and he gets stronger. He accepts his fallibility. He gets tempted by dark emotions and sees himself start down those paths, but is able to catch and correct himself. He keeps going. He keeps faith and optimism. That's what makes him such a great archetypal hero.

I did like the arc of recognizing the darkness in Kylo and being tempted to kill him to end it, but catching himself too late and suffering consequences for his faults. I did not like the idea of Rey having to be the wise master who teaches Luke and gets him on his feet so he can be the one to face the Bad Guy.

It would have been better for the story overall and for the character arcs of both Luke and Rey for Luke to remain the master teaching the new generation. Keep his failure. Let his wisdom be tempered by age. Let him realize that, old as he is now and mistakes he has made, he can not face Kylo Ren and save him. Kylo Ren is more spry and deadly. Because of his mistakes, he knows he can not save Kylo and turn him from the dark side. So, he has waited for someone young, hopeful, and promising who he can train. Rey finds him and he trains her, but he sees the same sort of blind idealism that he has held of thinking that the pure virtue of her heart will be enough that SHE will be able to save Kylo from himself. Luke tries to teach her the lessons he's learned that the only person who can save Kylo is himself, but Rey doesn't want to hear it.

Then in the end, have Luke face Kylo in person. Have him try to save Kylo, get run through, and have his final words be an APOLOGY of how he failed Kylo, and it spurs Rey on.

Or better yet, do a reverse of Empire. After Kylo has turned his back on his mentor, have him face Luke as a stand in for Vader. Have his young impetuousness be thwarted by Luke who gets to make a grand pronouncement before Kylo retreats.

06HHR
06HHR HalfDork
12/26/17 12:53 p.m.

In reply to Beer Baron :

Actually, I thought that was one of the better parts of the story arc.  I'm not saying that Luke isn't a great hero, but if you go back to his time with Yoda, he had to learn that it was ok to fail and that he should keep trying until he succeeds instead of giving up in despair ("do or do not, there is no try").  He lost that lesson, and Rey and Yoda helped him to rediscover that part of himself.  As for Luke being a Jedi Master, realistically that mantle fell upon him because he simply was the last Jedi left (that we know about).  He was trained for maybe a couple of hours by Obi-Wan and at most a couple of weeks by Yoda based on the timelines of the previous movies, time dilation and plot devices notwithstanding.  He is strong in the force, but not as well studied in it as a traditional Jedi would be with Years of training from early childhood.  TLDR, he was the Hot-E36 M3 Jedi master until he wasn't, and his self-imposed exile was as much borne of failure and shame as much as a need to learn more about the force. 

I think the story developments were necessary to move the saga forward, and with the severing of Snoke I believe there will be a movie about his backstory and the history of the First order coming soon after Episode IX is in the can (or maybe sooner) but that's my .02.  Anyway that's the beauty of these stories, we are all free to enjoy them -  or not enjoy them anyway we want.

 

Jerry
Jerry UberDork
12/26/17 1:04 p.m.
Beer Baron said:
yupididit said:

Failure and shame will do that to the strongest of men.

But... that's not Luke's character. That's one of the things that makes him such a great hero. He fails embarrassingly or shamefully a LOT, and he keeps coming back. He .......

But is that what happened to Luke after all he's been through?  Or is that what YOU think he should be after what he's been through?  I keep reading comments about what people "think" that movie should have been/done/said whatever.  I'll be forgetting all that when I see it again this week while off work.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
12/26/17 5:59 p.m.
Jerry said:
Beer Baron said:
yupididit said:

Failure and shame will do that to the strongest of men.

But... that's not Luke's character. That's one of the things that makes him such a great hero. He fails embarrassingly or shamefully a LOT, and he keeps coming back. He .......

But is that what happened to Luke after all he's been through?  Or is that what YOU think he should be after what he's been through?  I keep reading comments about what people "think" that movie should have been/done/said whatever.  I'll be forgetting all that when I see it again this week while off work.

That is what Mark Hamill said about the direction the writer took Luke in.

His behavior also contradicts what was established in Force Awakens, where he left a trail and a map that a force sensitive person could follow to be able to find him when he was needed.

I think it is a weak characterization because it makes Luke Skywalker the weak pupil that needs to be saved and taught by the Mary Sue.

yupididit
yupididit SuperDork
12/26/17 8:27 p.m.
Beer Baron said:
Jerry said:
Beer Baron said:
yupididit said:

Failure and shame will do that to the strongest of men.

But... that's not Luke's character. That's one of the things that makes him such a great hero. He fails embarrassingly or shamefully a LOT, and he keeps coming back. He .......

But is that what happened to Luke after all he's been through?  Or is that what YOU think he should be after what he's been through?  I keep reading comments about what people "think" that movie should have been/done/said whatever.  I'll be forgetting all that when I see it again this week while off work.

That is what Mark Hamill said about the direction the writer took Luke in.

His behavior also contradicts what was established in Force Awakens, where he left a trail and a map that a force sensitive person could follow to be able to find him when he was needed.

I think it is a weak characterization because it makes Luke Skywalker the weak pupil that needs to be saved and taught by the Mary Sue.

I don't think that's the case. It seems more of your personal idea of how it should be.

I like what they did with Luke. I don't think he left a map to be found when needed. If that's the case he would've just told his twin sister where he was if E36 M3 hit the fan. It seems like the map was more so his "Google maps search history" that r2 came to have somehow. 

I know some of the biggest lessons I've learned in the air force were from fresh young Airmen who didn't know the life but their newbness gave me fresh revelations on the E36 M3 I thought I already knew. And Luke isn't all strong or all knowing, he's barely had mentors before becoming The Mentor himself. 

pinchvalve
pinchvalve MegaDork
12/26/17 8:44 p.m.

OK, I am willing to accept the magnetic bombs.  I mean, sure, that means that you could have hed them deploy out the top or out the sides of the craft for added versatility, but whatever.  My beef is the excruciatingly long time it took to get the bombers over their targets.  

With the ability to jump to hyperspace, you don't need too much maneuvering speed.  However, according to the final OJ Bronco chase homage, there is apparently a top speed for ships on both sides that is EXACTLY the same.  That means that it is a limitation of ion drive technology or whatever is used in this world.  So both ships are moving in a set direction at their Maximum cruise speed.

Then, smaller crafts leave the ships in front and head for the ones behind.  If they just sit in space, they should get to the  bad guy ships pretty darn quickly.  If they are using the same propulsion system but in the opposite direction, they should be able to close the distance in half that time. The closing speed would be epic, why did it take so long for them to get there?  The fighters had no such problems, why are the bombers using a different propulsion system?  

And why did they have no shields...they were full of bombs!  

 

kazoospec
kazoospec SuperDork
12/26/17 9:07 p.m.

Saw it, liked it, but apparently didn't take it nearly seriously enough. 

I did think the B-17 hat-tip at the beginning was a little strong and stupidly "low tech" given the rest of the technology. 

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