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  • SVreX

    Nov. 3, 2011 10:18 p.m. SVreX SuperDork

    Josh wrote:

    And nobody has a problem with the fact that the situation presented gives us a world where people get ahead not based on their ability or merit, but based on their ability to get their bills paid for however long it takes said company to stop taking advantage of their free labor?

    Besides that, it's blatantly illegal for an employer to employ someone to their benefit without compensating them. I know the internship laws are rarely if ever enforced, but it's exactly times like these when so many workers are desperate for work and vulnerable to exploitation that these laws should be enforced to the letter.

    There are laws defining the specifics of unpaid internships, but they are most definitely NOT illegal.

  • SVreX

    Nov. 3, 2011 10:46 p.m. SVreX SuperDork

    The law requires pay for on the job training. The only amount the law requires is minimum wage. Most people who whine about this will never accept minimum wage while in training.

    Companies who offer more than that (most) are generous. They are not required to do it.

    Internships are not employment, and DO NOT have to pay anything. Legally. They offer training opportunity, and by law can not promise employment.

    But my point is that they virtually DO promise employment. Most companies that see an individual putting in a big effort for no pay will stop and notice. When the internship is over, and the company opens a position for hire, the intern has a significantly better opportunity for employment (at a higher rate) than the cold call job hunter (with whom the company has to take the risk, and pay for the training).

    If a company hires you, they must pay you. There is NO LAW saying you can't volunteer.

    All I'm saying is that now is a great time for people to think outside of the box, and internships are a very strong and viable option.

    The salary I earned is more than double the average income in my area. The company saw that I was serious, and made it worth my while.

    Let's look at the math for a second. In my area, $15 per hour is a pretty respectable income. I'll bet most job hunters are spending 2 months or more looking. For every $15 per hour job available, there are 100 people waiting in line. This gives the employer great opportunity to take the pick of the litter. The people who are getting hired are overqualified, previously earning $20 or more. People who are used to earning $10-12 per hour would LOVE to get a $15 job (but they won't).

    The employer could quite legitimately (AND legally) pay minimum wage during the training period.

    So, if I am a $12 per hour worker wishing I could get a $15 per hour job, I can spend 2 months unemployed looking, work my tushy off to get an interview for a $15 per hour job (facing 1 in 100 odds of getting it). I could then spend 6 weeks getting minimum wage while in training, and THEN get my $15 per hour job (if I'm lucky).

    OR, I could spend 4 weeks in an internship, then WALK IN to the company while they do a token interview of 3 other people just to make it look legit (because they already know they want to hire me), and start on day 1 at $15 per hour.

    Do the math. I'll take option 2 ANY DAY.

    But some folks would rather occupy Wall Street, or b*tch on the internet about the big bad employers. How's that working out for you? All I can say is that I've got a good job.

    I also own a company. I'll be hiring people who are prepared to prove they want it badly. I am prepared to pay well for both the work and the training, but I won't hire unmotivated people.

    It comes down to proving how motivated you are.

  • 4cylndrfury

    Nov. 4, 2011 10:12 a.m. 4cylndrfury SuperDork

    Your option 2 is all well and good if theres any kind of guarantee that the company WILL hire you after that interview process. What if the company doesnt? Now Im out 4 weeks of job hunting, with no pay, and now no prospect. I dont know about too many here, but Im not in a position o risk a month with no income. Luckily, Im not in the job market anymore, but the wounds inflicted by the treatment I received from my last employer are a little fresh yet.

    Why do you not rely more on someones body of work as an example of what they are capable of? What say you to this, in the last 12 years, Ive had 3 jobs, including this one. One for 5 years, one for 6, and this one going on for about 6 mos now. I have a proven record of advancement through meritocracy (meaning I earned my promotions through hard work and the quality of my work), and great recommendations from my previous employers. Ive never been left a place of employment on bad terms - meaning Ive never been fired. In both of my previous 2 jobs, I left on my own when I saw the likelihood of downsizing coming - I left on my own terms. in 11+ years, Ive missed less than 2 weeks of work due to sickness/emergency at home. I have my own transportation and a CLEAR background check. Im not a drug or alcohol abuser, not a thief, and not violent. My resume will show you I have a leadership background, am good in dynamic situations, require little supervision, and can provide examples of the quality of my work in past roles.

    If you see all that in my resume and background check, tell me then, why would you ASSUME that Im going to leave after I get some training? I have a history of log term employment with a company even after I get training. You hare making presumptions about me to rationalize your desire to get some work out of me for nothing.

    one in the hand is better than 2 in the bush - asking me to "prove" to you I "want" a job by working for free in hopes that youll maybe possibly decide to offer me a job is not a deal Im ever going to make. Im willing to work hard - very hard for my employer. I will work late, I will work weekends, I will go above an beyond. But dont insult my intelligence by trying to convince me that Im stupid for not taking your "work for me for free and I will give you extra brownie points" deal. Thats a sh_tty way to treat people, and is a dick move trying to make me feel bad for wanting to be compensated fairly for what I can provide.

  • Timeormoney

    Nov. 4, 2011 1:21 p.m. Timeormoney Reader

    4cylndrfury wrote:

    Timeormoney wrote:

    4cylndrfury wrote:

    Timeormoney wrote:

    There is no shortage of workers, just a shortage of smart hr folks.

    thanks again for your sweeping generalizations...broad strokes paint terrible pictures...Im just sayin

    After sitting in the middle of 4 divisions, working directly for the highest paid HR ....in the world; I stand proudly by my statement. 2 of the hundreds were good. The rest, ouch.

    Please explain how you evaluate good. A resume? A real interview? Hidden video at their current job? Alien probe? How do you quantify "good" when speaking in terms of hundreds of candidates?

    Candidates? I am talking about the actual people that work in HR :) Being on the inside of HR is like no other experience. It will shatter your faith in the good of mankind.
    As for candidates, I like the old Motorola new hire method: 1) can you learn? 2) do we like you? 3) will you work for this salary? Most of my interview have been based on this simple criteria, then I modify it for the job. Only thing is I can say for an absolute, if you see me across the table and it's a project management job: Don't lie to me, it will end poorly. I will admit I am a specialty interviewer, when I get the call its typically a pretty oddball job. I follow the script, use the rubric and typically test the overall intelligence/creativity of the potential hire. Intelligence I test by making them extrapolate to get an answer (give them a problem somewhat outside their own expertise and see how they go about it), typically I build physical rapport with them, do everything possible to reduce stress and try to pitch them some super easy right from their resume questions first. Then I walk it into unfamiliar territory and make super damn sure that I am supportive of their idea. I want to know if you can think, how you can think and if you can communicate. Everything else can be done OJT. I learned flight dynamics OJT, analog and digital communication OJT, composites OJT, hardware and software development OJT...and I am not that smart; but the people I surround myself with are :)

  • GameboyRMH

    Nov. 4, 2011 2:11 p.m. GameboyRMH SuperDork

    Article said:

    Only about 10% of the people in IT jobs during the Silicon Valley tech boom of the 1990s, for example, had IT-related degrees.

    Interesting article but this is a really poor argument - for reasons that should be obvious.

  • 4cylndrfury

    Nov. 4, 2011 3:21 p.m. 4cylndrfury SuperDork

    Timeormoney wrote:

    4cylndrfury wrote:

    Timeormoney wrote:

    4cylndrfury wrote:

    Timeormoney wrote:

    There is no shortage of workers, just a shortage of smart hr folks.

    thanks again for your sweeping generalizations...broad strokes paint terrible pictures...Im just sayin

    After sitting in the middle of 4 divisions, working directly for the highest paid HR ....in the world; I stand proudly by my statement. 2 of the hundreds were good. The rest, ouch.

    Please explain how you evaluate good. A resume? A real interview? Hidden video at their current job? Alien probe? How do you quantify "good" when speaking in terms of hundreds of candidates?

    Candidates? I am talking about the actual people that work in HR :) Being on the inside of HR is like no other experience. It will shatter your faith in the good of mankind.
    As for candidates, I like the old Motorola new hire method: 1) can you learn? 2) do we like you? 3) will you work for this salary? Most of my interview have been based on this simple criteria, then I modify it for the job. Only thing is I can say for an absolute, if you see me across the table and it's a project management job: Don't lie to me, it will end poorly. I will admit I am a specialty interviewer, when I get the call its typically a pretty oddball job. I follow the script, use the rubric and typically test the overall intelligence/creativity of the potential hire. Intelligence I test by making them extrapolate to get an answer (give them a problem somewhat outside their own expertise and see how they go about it), typically I build physical rapport with them, do everything possible to reduce stress and try to pitch them some super easy right from their resume questions first. Then I walk it into unfamiliar territory and make super damn sure that I am supportive of their idea. I want to know if you can think, how you can think and if you can communicate. Everything else can be done OJT. I learned flight dynamics OJT, analog and digital communication OJT, composites OJT, hardware and software development OJT...and I am not that smart; but the people I surround myself with are :)

    I like that interview technique...a lot! And yes, I misunderstood - for whatever reason,I thought you meant HR as HOUR, or HOURLY people. My bad lol. I agree, HR people can be the WORST!!!

  • Nov. 4, 2011 3:41 p.m. z31maniac SuperDork

    It's amazing some of the outlandish assumptions that are presented as fact in this discussion.

  • Nov. 4, 2011 3:56 p.m. fasted58 SuperDork

    Some HR people have driven me absolutely nuts... I swear they can push enough buttons w/ no relevance to the job skills... maybe it's that part of the interview to make sure the prospect won't go AK on the joint.

  • ProDarwin

    Nov. 4, 2011 4:27 p.m. ProDarwin Dork

    z31maniac wrote:

    It's amazing some of the outlandish assumptions that are presented as fact in this discussion.

    This.

  • Datsun1500

    Nov. 4, 2011 4:39 p.m. Datsun1500 SuperDork

    z31maniac wrote:

    It's amazing some of the outlandish assumptions that are presented as fact in this discussion.

    Like the assumption that someone owes you a job, or training?

  • PHeller

    Nov. 4, 2011 4:48 p.m. PHeller Dork

    I don't think anyone is saying anything about OWING anybody anything.

    I think we're talking about the economics of it all.

    For every excuse workers give for not having work, there are equal numbers of excuses that American businesses give for not hiring them.

    Both need changes.

  • Josh

    Nov. 4, 2011 4:49 p.m. Josh Dork

    SVreX wrote:

    There are laws defining the specifics of unpaid internships, but they are most definitely NOT illegal.

    I did not say unpaid internships are illegal. I'm also pretty sure you know that. I said the practice is often abused by employers to obtain free labor, or to train or "test drive" potential employees; that is absolutely illegal, and essentially unenforced.

  • turbojunker

    Nov. 4, 2011 5:00 p.m. turbojunker HalfDork

    If anything, this thread makes me appreciate my job more. I got paid to travel 750 miles away to take an 8 week training course, then 4 months of on the job training. I also get a minimum of 40 hours training per year.

    They are going to have to chase me off with a stick.

  • SVreX

    Nov. 4, 2011 5:30 p.m. SVreX SuperDork

    4cylndrfury wrote:

    Your option 2 is all well and good if theres any kind of guarantee that the company WILL hire you after that interview process. What if the company doesnt?

    Federal law PROHIBITS a guarantee that the company will hire you. That would count as compensation.

    The perk is that if the company doesn't, you will be better trained, experienced for the next job interview, have plenty of contacts and inside information from the company, and a great referral from them to another company. That's a whole lot better than anything the unemployment line offers.

  • Jay

    Nov. 4, 2011 5:45 p.m. Jay SuperDork

    If a prospective employer ever demanded I prove my dedication by working for free, I would head for the nearest door as fast as I could. I wouldn't even stop to wee in all the plants in the lobby, because that would delay my trip out the front door. I'm just saying.

    Actually, more seriously, I've done a lot of work on short term/fixed term contracts, some of which included training, some of which was unpaid. I would consider it unprofessional of myself to volunteer my labour for free to what should be a paid undertaking, and unprofessional of the company to ask me to do so. Real training is a little different - when I drove school buses the three week, unpaid training period actually had a lot of value to me since it would have cost me quite a bit to get my bus licence on my own - but as soon as I'm asked to do actual, concrete work that would otherwise be part of a job description, I'm going to expect a paycheque.

    To me, the hiring process is about coming to a mutually beneficial agreement, my services for your money (or the other way around), not buttering people up, paying tributes, or trying to con someone into giving you a job you don't "deserve". That kind of thinking just makes the whole thing needlessly adversarial. I don't consider myself "unmotivated", but I don't do "hoop jumping" very well, and don't really see that as a failing. If you are evaluating me for a job and you do see that as a failing, well, I don't really want to work for you anyway.

    Note: yes, I did just mention my personal sense of professionalism and cracked a joke about weeing in the plants in the lobby in the same post. Deal with it.

    EDIT: I hope this didn't come off as a direct attack on you & your methods, Paul, that wasn't the intent. I have a lot of respect for you and I know you know the difference between a real internship (i.e. training/learning) and work (i.e. not training.) But a lot of shady employers don't respect that, and I've had friends who got stuck in exactly that situation, essentially used as slave labour because education which they themselves were paying for depended on them doing free gruntwork for a company that had no intention of ever hiring them. I think EVERYONE - employers, employees, contractors - would be better off if the massive mudcake of B.S. were stripped away from the top of the interview/hiring process.

    ((Also, I was very, VERY fuming, shouting-at-the-empty-room-and-kicking-furniture mad about something not employment related, but definitely hoop-jumping related, when I wrote up that post, so I was kind of venting. I may just resurrect the rant thread to rant about what was actually bugging me, if I get to the point where I can form a sentence about it without wanting to break things. I HATE JUMPING THROUGH HOOPS TO APPEASE IDIOTS.))

  • Nov. 4, 2011 6:43 p.m. fasted58 SuperDork

    I dunno how many people could actually afford to take an unpaid internship especially in this economy... college students on summer break or recent grads most likely. Working spouse to cover bills while you intern, maybe. Slush fund, maybe. I'm not dissin' it at all as there are benefits to be found. To intern for no pay provides practical knowledge of the field plus hands on environment and one foot in the door vs pay for credits at school w/ no hands on and no door or unload trucks at WM until you find a real job. I think it a rare instance where a debt owing individual and/ or family person could actually afford the unpaid time... but not bad if ya can do it.

    I'm not that bad off financially but I doubt I'd ever consider interning unless it was very, very specific to my needs and had some tight inside assurance to my being hired. I distrust the corporate world as much as anybody else and for good reason.

    And as I mentioned college students as probable interns, I've known a few engineering students who did paid co-ops and did get hired and went on to much greater things.

  • SVreX

    Nov. 5, 2011 9:40 p.m. SVreX SuperDork

    In reply to Jay:

    No harm, no foul. I'm not taking it personally.

    Please note that I never said anything about an employer demanding anyone prove their dedication by working for free. That would be illegal.

    I am recommending it as a proven technique for potential employees to get their foot in the door and get noticed. It works.

    I am not suggesting it as a proving ground or weeding out technique for employers. That's illegal and unethical.

    However a company that develops a viable and legitimate internship program will likely find it to be a great asset.

    If your reaction is pissing on the plants, be my guest. You probably wouldn't be the kind of employee who would fit into such a progressive and forward thinking work environment anyway. (No offense).

    I am. Got me an ownership stake. I'm just sharing.

  • HiTempguy

    Nov. 6, 2011 5:26 a.m. HiTempguy Dork

    SVreX wrote:

    In reply to Jay:

    No harm, no foul. I'm not taking it personally.

    Please note that I never said anything about an employer demanding anyone prove their dedication by working for free. That would be illegal.

    I am recommending it as a proven technique for potential employees to get their foot in the door and get noticed. It works.

    I am not suggesting it as a proving ground or weeding out technique for employers. That's illegal and unethical.

    However a company that develops a viable and legitimate internship program will likely find it to be a great asset.

    If your reaction is pissing on the plants, be my guest. You probably wouldn't be the kind of employee who would fit into such a progressive and forward thinking work environment anyway. (No offense).

    Just because you say something in a different way doesn't actually make what is happening different. You expect people to work for free, simple as that. How long should they work for you while not getting paid? One month? Three months? In one breathe, you suggest it isn't a proving ground or weeding out, but then in another you suggest it gets your foot in the door and gets you noticed... sounds like one in the same to me I could see being HIRED, or being told "complete this training (non-paid) and we'll hire you" but to spend a month (minimum) getting experience for a specific job that may or may not be usable/saleable somewhere else? Not to mention most employers are busy making money to go out of their way to train someone that they don't plan on hiring.

    I honestly know one person under the age of 25 that wouldn't be screwed by taking a one month non-paid whatever you want to call it. Your idea of progressive and forward thinking is at odds with what I would consider that lol.

  • Josh

    Nov. 6, 2011 6:18 p.m. Josh Dork

    In reply to SVreX:

    To put it another way, if a company has no ethical problems in accepting a person's labor without paying for it, that probably isn't a company I'd trust enough to want as my employer. Especially if that person is currently receiving unemployment benefits, because that's fraud. It wouldn't matter if they're not getting paid - if an employer is letting someone do work for him, and the state is paying the worker and the employer isn't, the employer is defrauding the state.

    If, on the other hand, you are suggesting that people voluntarily decline the unemployment benefits that are keeping them afloat, in order to take a chance that giving their labor away for free might eventually turn into paid employment, I think that's sort of ludicrous.

    It seems that your particular case involved a company that you had past history with, that you had an active interest/relationship with, and that you weren't just someone who blindly offered their services off the street. That's why I think it's wrong for you to imply that your experiences are necessarily applicable to anyone other than yourself.

  • SVreX

    Nov. 13, 2011 2:43 p.m. SVreX SuperDork

    I think you are mistaken. An internship is education, not employment. Are people required to refuse unemployment benefits when they go back to school? Many school programs (like teaching and nursing) REQUIRE internships to graduate.

    Here's a summary of the Federal requirements: Labor laws for internships

    I get it that nobody wants to work for free. But don't try to connect this with unethical hiring practices.

    Internships are legal, fair, and legitimate methods of getting and offering education, with a very long history and very clear guidelines in the Federal hiring laws.

    Companies PAY for this in reduced productivity of their staff, expenses, and support costs. Don't kid yourself- it NOT a freebie to a company, and NO ONE is very valuable to any company when they first start. (The company is not receiving that much).

    It is correct that this arrangement is sometimes abused, but completely false to suggest that it is illegal, or unethical. I am NOT suggesting an illegal dodge of the FLSA. I am suggesting a legitimate internship.

    Josh, you are correct that I had a previous relationship, so it is not a fair comparison. My wife is currently about to start an internship with NO previous relationship and 25 year out of the workplace. I am strongly encouraging her to do so. I expect it to be very beneficial to her, me, AND the company. I am confidant it is a better bet than an entry level position for her.

    I don't mind folks not liking the idea. I'm just suggesting it as a creative approach that gets noticed.

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