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Nov. 6, 2009 9:40 a.m. carzan Reader

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091106/ap_on_re_us/us_recovered_van

In a nutshell, a '65 VW van was stolen in '74 and not recovered. The latest "possessor" was a restoration shop that went to the trouble of restoring it and was in the process of shipping it off to be sold when it was discovered to be stolen. Even the cops agree the shop was likely a victim of circumstance.

The vehicle now legally belongs to Allstate and a spokesperson says they plan to get the title and sell it at auction. A vehicle that was worth probably less than $1000 when stolen, is now estimated by police to be worth approaching $30,000.

I know the law is on Allstate's side, but from the article, one gets the impression that the restoration shop is getting royally screwed. Doesn't it seem like the shop should get some kind of compensation out of this windfall that Allstate stands to gain?
Nov. 6, 2009 9:45 a.m. Mental UberDork

It does. It would seem the restoration shop would have a claim against all the stuff they put in it.
Nov. 6, 2009 9:46 a.m. Giant Purple Snorklewacker Dork

If the shop were selling it and had no title - they should have run the VIN before trying to send it thru customs. If someone was paying them to restore it they should still get paid.
Nov. 6, 2009 9:46 a.m. Woody SuperDork

I can't root for an insurance company, but the part about the restoration shop planning to sell it overseas kind of throws up a red flag.
Nov. 6, 2009 10:04 a.m. sachilles Reader

Probably the most equitable thing to do is for the insurance company to recoup the money paid out on the claim, plus interest by selling it at the auction. The remainder should go to the restoration shop.
Nov. 6, 2009 10:13 a.m. pigeon HalfDork

I can't believe it but I'm going to defend the insurance company. If it was a private individual instead of an insurance company would it still be scummy? If your car got stolen 30 years ago and you still held title when it turned up recently restored would you feel bad for the restoration shop? Allstate paid the insurance claim and got title to the vehicle. They still own it. The restoration shop must have bought it without a title - if so they took the risk that it was stolen. Calling the cops before buying it and having the VIN run would have confirmed that. So, tough luck, don't traffic in potentially stolen goods.
Nov. 6, 2009 10:37 a.m. aircooled SuperDork

The restoration shop was pretty stupid. Certainly check the VIN. If they were a half way decent shop I am sure they could at least swap the VIN with another junk Van, I mean, how hard can that be on a 65 VW!?! A couple of rivits?!?
Nov. 6, 2009 10:46 a.m. foxtrapper UltraDork

Red flags go up all over my radar screen when I read the article.

A shop sinks that kind of money into a vehicle they don't have title to? They don't even bother to check it? So they're selling it overseas without a title. That's why it was found in a shipping container?

Sure, they're a victim to. Uh huh.
Nov. 6, 2009 10:50 a.m. sachilles Reader

Most states will not issue a title for a car over 15 years old. So not having a title is not out of line.
Nov. 6, 2009 10:52 a.m. Dr. Hess PowerDork

That couple of rivits is a felony, BTW. If the shop bought the thing to fix and sell, the shop should not have started the work without the title. I've bought cars and bikes before without a title. I didn't do anything to them but let them sit there until I had a real title in my hands. I knew they were not stolen, but if there was any problem at all, I didn't want any more money tied up in it.
Nov. 6, 2009 11:03 a.m. Gearheadotaku Reader

So in a state that doesn't issue titles, how do you prove ownership? Seems like a bill of sale would be easy to fake in a private party sale.
Nov. 6, 2009 11:11 a.m. sachilles Reader

vin gets searched at the time of registration. Likely if the shop had registered ownership prior to restoration, this would be a different story.
Nov. 6, 2009 11:23 a.m. wlkelley3 HalfDork

This doesn't mean that the resto shop didn't have a title for the vehicle, albeit not a completely legal one, it was probably legal as far as the PO are concerned. I've heard of several instances of this. Vehicle gets stolen, wait a while and apply for title in another distant state (that accepts bill of sales) that doesn't check stolen registry and they'll issue a "clean" title. Alabama's leniency with prior to 1975 vehicles is a haven for this activity. Most of the instances I've heard of the vehicle in question had an Alabama title sometime after it was stolen, always from another state. I think I've heard of maybe one instance that the title after stolen was from up north, I think Michigan or Minnisota (?) or someplace around there. My uncle told me that at a car show he went to in Missouri once someone found their old Corvette that was stolen several years before and the current owner had a clean title and bought the car from someone in Alabama. The car went back (fully restored) to the original owner it was stolen from as he still had the original sales documents and title. Current owner shafted and out his resto $$. This is probably more common now days with cars being sold overseas. Looks like customs is doing more now than just checking current documentation.
Nov. 6, 2009 11:29 a.m. carzan Reader

pigeon wrote:

I can't believe it but I'm going to defend the insurance company. If it was a private individual instead of an insurance company would it still be scummy? If your car got stolen 30 years ago and you still held title when it turned up recently restored would you feel bad for the restoration shop? Allstate paid the insurance claim and got title to the vehicle. They still own it. The restoration shop must have bought it without a title - if so they took the risk that it was stolen. Calling the cops before buying it and having the VIN run would have confirmed that. So, tough luck, don't traffic in potentially stolen goods.

If it was a private individual instead of an insurance company would it still be scummy? Yep. The person that the car was stolen from was compensated for the value of the car at the time it happened. In essence, the car was purchased from them by the insurance company. There is really no reason for the individual to have any claim to it.

If the car hadn't been insured, as far as I know, it still would belong to that individual and they would still be legally entitled to it. However, if the restoration shop bought it in good faith and all paperwork was done legally and appeared to check out, I think it would be scummy of that individual to take it back after 30 years without coming to some kind of settlement for all the work and material expense that brings the value of this vehicle to what it is. To me that would make you as much or more of a thief than the one who stole it to begin with. But, if you can live with that, enjoy the money. Karma's a bitch.

As far as tracking down that it was stolen, here cars built before 1981 don't have titles and other states don't title cars 15-25 years old or older. All you need is a bill of sale. There are plenty of cars that have been off the road long enough for there to be no record of them at the DMV. I suppose you could call all 50 states and see if there was record of theft. How many people have done that? Any takers? Maybe it was stolen in Germany? Should I call all countries, too? My point is that whenever I purchase a car and there is record of it being legally registered by the previous owner and all paperwork seems to be in order, I don't think it is unreasonable to believe that I don't need to search any deeper.
Nov. 6, 2009 11:50 a.m. carzan Reader

foxtrapper wrote:

Red flags go up all over my radar screen when I read the article.

A shop sinks that kind of money into a vehicle they don't have title to? They don't even bother to check it? So they're selling it overseas without a title. That's why it was found in a shipping container?

Sure, they're a victim to. Uh huh.

I see nothing in the article that says the restoration shop didn't have title or other legally binding documentation (due to its age). Since the police themselves are calling them a victim, they must have reason to believe the shop thought they had legal ownership.
Nov. 6, 2009 12:04 p.m. Supercoupe Reader

Wanna hear scummy, buy a car with a title all on the up and up, don't title the car for several years and inadvertantly misplace the title... Try to contact the previous owner to get a duplicate and they instead put in a claim of a stolen vehicle...with an anonymous tip as to where the car was last sighted...

I always go to the DMV and get a title issued to me as soon as I take ownership now...this way if I lose it ,I'm the last titled owner and can get a duplicate for a 10$ fee.
Nov. 6, 2009 12:23 p.m. benzbaron Reader

I think in california part of the deal is if you buy/sell a car you have to put the paperwork into the DMV 5 days from the day of the sale. If you don't hold the title how can you "own" the car? Kind of like a house or financing a car, you don't actually own the thing until you pay the bank off and they send you the title.
Nov. 6, 2009 1:49 p.m. TJ HalfDork

You don't really ever own your house even if you manage to pay off the mortgage. If you don't believe me stop paying ypour property taxes and see what happens. In effect we are allowed to rent our property from the government. It is theirs for the taking back at any time if we don't play by their rules. If you live in a state that assess proprty tax on vehicles same story.
Nov. 6, 2009 1:56 p.m. cwh SuperDork

About 8 years ago, I came across a "Yard Find", '72 240Z that had moved in a long time. I knocked on the door, after negotiations, I had a car and proper title. The car did NOT have a VIN tag. I told the seller I was concerned, he said it was totally legit. I (bravely) took the car to the local cop shop and had them run the VIN. Can be found in several places on those. They looked, checked the computer, said no problem. A month later I was working in a house where a slant nose Porsche was parked in the garage, so we started talking cars. I described my new find, he said he had had one just like it, but it was stolen years ago. Then he described a few things I had not mentioned. Yep, I had his car. I sold it. I hope Karma forgives me.
Nov. 6, 2009 2:04 p.m. pete240z Dork

Dr. Hess wrote:

That couple of rivits is a felony, BTW. If the shop bought the thing to fix and sell, the shop should not have started the work without the title. I've bought cars and bikes before without a title. I didn't do anything to them but let them sit there until I had a real title in my hands. I knew they were not stolen, but if there was any problem at all, I didn't want any more money tied up in it.

I just talked to a guy who has an older Japanese version, let's say MGB.

He has the 4 screw removeable information plate (that shows vin #, dashboard vin #, and matching State Title from "another" car, that will go with the sale of his car.

pass
Nov. 6, 2009 2:05 p.m. spitfirebill Dork

This is why I wouldn't touch cars often sold on ebay where the owner has never bothered to title the car in their name, or who say it would be "easy to get a title". In SC, you ain't doin nothin without a title. And boat is even worse. We have guys who have taken a day off work to go to the DNR office to title their boats.

If I buy something without a title, it is a parts car and I am only taking the parts off I need. The rest is going to the crusher.
Nov. 6, 2009 2:35 p.m. mad_machine PowerDork

odd that some states do not title cars that old. I know here in NJ I was able to title my Fiat and that was built in 77. It came with a title from PA that was dated back to 1980
Nov. 6, 2009 3:10 p.m. PHeller HalfDork

Steal car in 74'

Put into climate controlled container.

Ship to foreign country 35 years later.

I wanna see proof of the restoration.
Nov. 6, 2009 3:50 p.m. Dr. Hess PowerDork

TJ wrote:

You don't really ever own your house even if you manage to pay off the mortgage. If you don't believe me stop paying ypour property taxes and see what happens. In effect we are allowed to rent our property from the government. It is theirs for the taking back at any time if we don't play by their rules. If you live in a state that assess proprty tax on vehicles same story.

TJ, this has been my exact observation for decades. How are we different than a total communist country where "the government" owns our property and we rent it from them? We are not, really. Stop paying your taxes and see what happens to "your" house. The recent Supreme Court rulings completely eliminating all remaining semblance of private property rights just pushes it along.
Nov. 6, 2009 3:52 p.m. JetMech Reader

benzbaron wrote:

I think in california part of the deal is if you buy/sell a car you have to put the paperwork into the DMV 5 days from the day of the sale.

I think it's five days for the seller, ten for the buyer. It's been a while since I've bought a car.

spitfirebill wrote:

This is why I wouldn't touch cars often sold on ebay where the owner has never bothered to title the car in their name, or who say it would be "easy to get a title". In SC, you ain't doin nothin without a title. And boat is even worse. We have guys who have taken a day off work to go to the DNR office to title their boats.

If I buy something without a title, it is a parts car and I am only taking the parts off I need. The rest is going to the crusher.

In California, you might need to take a week off work when dealing with the DMV. I take same approach with no-title vehicles.

Here, I'm rooting for the guy (or gal) who had their Bus stolen back in '74. I really hope that the rightful owner is found and appreciates the Bus.

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