Time for body work...on the car, not me

I can build an engine, engineer a suspension, and design a complete driveline. When it comes to body work, I am a complete waste of space

Car in question is a 66 Pontiac Bonneville. I have contacted several blasters who work with sand, walnut shells, plastic beads, and baking soda. I have contacted a couple dip tank businesses, one who dips in a caustic paint remover and one who uses acid. I'm ready to take the next step. Sorta.

What I need to know is the products to choose for the next step. I know it needs a primer put on it immediately, but I don't know which way to go. I've been told it needs to be an etching primer or sealer primer since regular primer won't seal against moisture.

Can someone give me a rundown of some pros and cons of different paint types? Enamel, Urethane, Water-based... I don't even know what's out there. Are there ones that can be used with others? What base plays best with other types? I know that I should choose one line of paint and stick with it to avoid compatibility problems, but what type should I choose and why?

At this point I'm thinking I need to get a REALLY good primer on it because it will be getting the dents and holes fixed little by little as time and money become available. At this point I can't even guarantee indoor storage for it although it should be able to stay out of the elements. I'm 95% sure it can stay inside, but if my commissions take a dive or I get moved for work again... the future is uncertain.

I know the best thing to do is to blast, pound, bondo, prime, paint. But I may have to blast, prime, then pound, bondo, reprime, paint. I can't imagine having the time, space, or money to bite off the whole thing at once. I would love to hand it over to a body shop, but I can't bite that much off right now.

As much as I would love to learn all of this myself, it would mean excessively long learning curves with what I'm afraid will be mediocre results on a car that I really want to be super-nice, so any tips you can give me would be great.

In a nutshell... I want a flawless body and only spend $20 to do it. (just kidding) I'm just looking for a direction on the body work so I don't do something stupid along the way. I would hate to take my freshly blasted and primed shell to someone and have them say, "you should have used X primer if you wanted to patch weld these holes" or "the pearl effect you want won't work with water based finishes, you have to start over." That would suck.

Short version:
- what type of finishes and why? Final color will be VW mellow yellow with either a caddy pearl clear or gold pearl clear. It looks kinda like shimmery butter on the test panel.
- what are the drawbacks to blast, prime, then beat and bondo compared to sucking it up and do it "right" with blast, beat, bondo, prime?
- what steps (as a complete beginner) do you think I should step in and do myself? What's the hardest thing to berkeley up?

epoxy primer will seal it while you do the straightening. Then high build 2k primer to block it.

When I get to my computer I'll give you a great website that was invaluable to me.

Sweet. Thanks for the quick reply.

My personal opinion is that to do it right, you need to strip it down to bare metal...even under original paint that still looks good, there can be rust lurking that you can't see. You probably want to put an epoxy primer on it (something like PPG DP40), it's waterproof and can withstand the elements for quite a while before putting on the finish coat. However, it will depend on who you're going to have paint it - different shops use different brands of paints, and they'll want to stick with the same brand product for the whole paint system from primer all the way through. As far as that goes, many shops will be hesitant to work on a car that comes in partly finished, since there's no way they can guarantee what they put on top of it will stick. They're going to want do do the whole thing themselves.

What condition is it in? Those cars like to rust in the rear window channel, and behind the front wheels (they can rust everywhere, of course, but those were the problem spots in 1966.) There are several people in the Austin area who post over on the Performance Years Pontiac boards who are big into full size Pontiacs, they could probably give you some advice on working on the body and/or people who could do the work.

I've always liked 1966 Bonnevilles. My high school girlfriend drove a '66 Bonneville Safari wagon, it had just about every available option on it, including a 421 engine. That thing was a lot of fun.

lots of good info

I got a membership to a place called painters lane. It was designed for the diy crowd. It was a great place that opened up just as I was starting my bmw project. Basically my yearly dues got me unlimited amount of time in the shop to do bodywork and a limited amount of time in the brand new sdd paint booth. I could rent all the tools I needed from them hourly and also paid for booth time hourly. I learned a great deal just by going in and hanging out after work with all the guys. They held classes and had people from the industry come in and give demonstrations. Unfortunately the guy that started it sold out to another guy shortly after I finished my car and I believe it went out of business a year or so later.

If you take it all the way down and it is not possible to get to work right away on it a good epoxy primer will seal it for a long time. When I started work on my car another guy brought in a 70 chevelle, he had it blasted and then put it in epoxy primer. Shortly after that he was diagnosed with brain cancer and his car was put outside because inside space was at a premium. It sat out there until mine was finished about ten months later and I checked on it every time I was at the shop, showed no signs of trouble anywhere. Not the ideal situation but is the best option when you need some time to get to work on it. Not cheap if I remember correctly.

stuart in mn wrote: What condition is it in?

Somewhere between "not too bad" and "could use some patchwork."

Its a PA car with only 100k on it so its not terrible. There is a rust hole on each quarter panel just in front of the wheel opening. One side is about as big as my thumb and the other side is about as big as my pinky.

Rear window channel isn't too bad, windshield channel is pretty yucky. I posted some photos below. The car is currently completely naked. I had stripped it ready for the dip tank and then never got around to it. The car has been in storage for the last 5 years. Its been outside under a cover, so plenty of moisture but not terrible. Its totally steel, no rubber, glass, chrome, aluminum, pot metal, nothing but shell. The body mount bolts are off (except two for transport) so its literally ready to lift off the frame for blasting/dipping/whatever.

I was going to drill out the spot welds for the rocker panels but I see no damage there at all (surprisingly).

Current condition:

Windshield channel rust:

Rear glass channel rust:

Left quarter panel:

Right quarter panel:

Trunk floor (which will be replaced... should I cut before the blast or after?):

A quick clarification on your impression of the "right" way, which is a common misconception (used to be mine too)

Blast, pound, fill(bondo), prime....is NOT the right way.

Blast, prime, etc is the right way. A good primer should be the base for everything, including filler. Filler should not be used over bare metal as it does not seal the metal and can cause a vunerable point under the paint.

The best advice I can give you on what to use isnt so much a particular type or brand as to just pick a "system" and stick with it. Talk to your paint supplier and tell them what you are doing and get primer through clearcoat from the same manufacturer, same type to ensure there are no incompatability issues.

Overall your steps should look like Blast, prime, pound, fill, prime, base, clear. With alot of sanding thrown in throughout. Of course based on your desired effect base and clear can be multiple steps in themselves. You know the look you are going for with the paint so talk to the supplier and find out what you will need to do the job start to finish in one single "system" so its all compatable.

Oh and if you are on the fence I'd go with blasting over dipping. I've seen nightmares where the solution got trapped in crevices only to come out later and destroy paint jobs.

Of course you get blasting media in hidden spots too so either way you have to be careful.

Most places that dip a car right will neutralize it (well they should all neutralize it actually) and then go the extra step to "bake" the shell in a high temp booth to evaporate out anything remaining.

A couple thoughts: Is the trunk floor metal really thin from the rust? If not, it could be cleaned up and not replaced. Before you do anything else, you should repair the rusted areas. They need to be cut out and replaced with fresh metal. While you have those areas opened up you can see if there is any rust damage underneath. Dipping will probably give you the best results. I have more than 35 years full time experience in restoration and was a factory paint rep for Sherwin Williams. Feel free to ask me any qustions you may have as you go along.

Don49 wrote: A couple thoughts: Is the trunk floor metal really thin from the rust?

There are some pretty thin spots in the field, but where they meet the tire tubs is swiss chesse. I am also going to replace the transmission tunnel. Years ago I had fabricated a tunnel to fit a gear vendors OD and its a hack job. Replacing that tunnel will also give access to the insides of the floor braces.

I have more than 35 years full time experience in restoration and was a factory paint rep for Sherwin Williams. Feel free to ask me any qustions you may have as you go along.

Careful what you offer... I'm gonna take you up on that offer

Thanks

JThw8 wrote: A quick clarification on your impression of the "right" way, which is a common misconception (used to be mine too) Blast, pound, fill(bondo), prime....is NOT the right way. Blast, prime, etc is the right way. A good primer should be the base for everything, including filler. Filler should not be used over bare metal as it does not seal the metal and can cause a vunerable point under the paint. The best advice I can give you on what to use isnt so much a particular type or brand as to just pick a "system" and stick with it. Talk to your paint supplier and tell them what you are doing and get primer through clearcoat from the same manufacturer, same type to ensure there are no incompatability issues. Overall your steps should look like Blast, prime, pound, fill, prime, base, clear. With alot of sanding thrown in throughout. Of course based on your desired effect base and clear can be multiple steps in themselves. You know the look you are going for with the paint so talk to the supplier and find out what you will need to do the job start to finish in one single "system" so its all compatable.

Wow. Didn't know that. Why don't you pound before you prime though?

To be honest, unless you have a special attachment to that particular car I'd look for one in better condition to start with...the rust (particularly in the cowl) is going to be difficult to repair, and when you're done it will still be a four door. Unfortunately they just aren't worth much money these days.

Here's a couple possibilities: 1966 Grand Prix, supposedly rust free for $5k: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/cto/2138149992.html 1966 Bonneville 4 door, needs an oil pump but clean body for $4k: http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=652389

93EXCivic wrote:

JThw8 wrote: A quick clarification on your impression of the "right" way, which is a common misconception (used to be mine too) Blast, pound, fill(bondo), prime....is NOT the right way. Blast, prime, etc is the right way. A good primer should be the base for everything, including filler. Filler should not be used over bare metal as it does not seal the metal and can cause a vunerable point under the paint. The best advice I can give you on what to use isnt so much a particular type or brand as to just pick a "system" and stick with it. Talk to your paint supplier and tell them what you are doing and get primer through clearcoat from the same manufacturer, same type to ensure there are no incompatability issues. Overall your steps should look like Blast, prime, pound, fill, prime, base, clear. With alot of sanding thrown in throughout. Of course based on your desired effect base and clear can be multiple steps in themselves. You know the look you are going for with the paint so talk to the supplier and find out what you will need to do the job start to finish in one single "system" so its all compatable.

Wow. Didn't know that. Why don't you pound before you prime though?

If you are stripping to bare metal you want to prime immediately, bare metal will start rusting without hesitation. I suppose if this is your job and you can strip it and start metalshaping the same day and still get it in primer before you go home that night it might work but for most guys its, take it to the stripper, drag it home again (on an open trailer) metalshape it for a few days/weeks as time permits...etc. Ideally your metal stripper has the capability to prime it before it leaves so its protected for the trip home and beyond.

As was suggested by another poster you should really be doing the major pounding and cut weld before the stripping and then go back and patch all the stuff you thought was good until the paint came off. But I would usually start with the "rough" bodywork before stripping and get the major patches in place and "pounding" work done before stripping.

This thread has made me no longer excited to try doing the bodywork on the Escort.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: This thread has made me no longer excited to try doing the bodywork on the Escort.

Bodywork isnt all that bad, and remember we are talking a bare shell strip down here. I assume you dont plan to strip the escort to the bare metal. If the factory paint is adhered well it makes a great base for whatever you put on top.

Also alot of what we are talking about is the "right" way. I'll tell you a secret, I've done things the wrong way more times than I've done them the right way and they still work just fine ;) Take your time, do some research, ask questions and it will all work out in the end.

In reply to JThw8:

Gotcha I am going some bodywork on parts for my bike. I will keep that all in mind.

JThw8 wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: This thread has made me no longer excited to try doing the bodywork on the Escort.

Bodywork isnt all that bad, and remember we are talking a bare shell strip down here. I assume you dont plan to strip the escort to the bare metal. If the factory paint is adhered well it makes a great base for whatever you put on top. Also alot of what we are talking about is the "right" way. I'll tell you a secret, I've done things the wrong way more times than I've done them the right way and they still work just fine ;) Take your time, do some research, ask questions and it will all work out in the end.

Mine is just very minor rust over the rear quarters, and standard door ding stuff i think.

So how bad an idea is this? I have some of my bike parts with me at school (rear fender, fuel and oil tank) and I want to work on them here. But I don't have the necessary tools to do a full spray (that will have to wait until I get back home for spring break.) I want to do all the bondo and pounding work while I am in Huntsville. So could I spray them with just the rattle can primer, then Bondo that and strip the primer off when I get home and reprimer it with the correct primer?

stuart in mn wrote: To be honest, unless you have a special attachment to that particular car I'd look for one in better condition to start with...

I have a MASSIVE attachment to that car. It was my first car, given to me by my great uncle on his deathbed on my 16th birthday. That car was his pride and joy - it was the only car he ever bought or could afford being a farmer. As of 1965 he was still driving his tractor or riding his horse to town for necessities, the rest he traded with the local Amish or relied on someone from the church to bring it to him. Its not that I'm "doing this for Roy," but what it represents to me is huge. I will probably die still owning that car. (or die trying to fix it)

I don't have a problem buying a convertible or coupe body with a rusty frame or something, but the cost involved so far hasn't proven to be any better deal than just fixing. This will also be a driver, so the 4-doors don't bother me much on the Bonny. On a Nova or Malibu? they're ugly in 4-door versions but the Bonny is actually quite nice.

Not worried about resale value or I wouldn't have invested $15,000 in a 400 hp Duramax to put under the hood

curtis73 wrote: I have a MASSIVE attachment to that car. It was my first car, given to me by my great uncle on his deathbed on my 16th birthday.

That's as good a reason as any to restore it, then.

93EXCivic wrote: So how bad an idea is this? I have some of my bike parts with me at school (rear fender, fuel and oil tank) and I want to work on them here. But I don't have the necessary tools to do a full spray (that will have to wait until I get back home for spring break.) I want to do all the bondo and pounding work while I am in Huntsville. So could I spray them with just the rattle can primer, then Bondo that and strip the primer off when I get home and reprimer it with the correct primer?

Your basic rattle can primer is porus (so is most body filler) so it wont do much to protect it. However for bike parts I assume you are keeping them indoors so you aren't at as much of a risk for rust there. If they are just sitting you could even lightly oil them. If you are going to work them you want a good primer under it even if you are going to strip them back down, remember your filler is going over the primer so unless you are stripping the filler off too you want a good base under it. You should be able to get some good etching primer or epoxy primer in spray cans (not sure about the epoxy primer). If you cant find it at a goof FLAPS then you should be able to order it online.

PPG DP 40 is great. I've used it forever and it's tenacious and durable.

PPG materials catalog

You can find it in "primer / surfacers" in the "Deltron" section.

Thank you all, very edifying. Anybody know anything about naptha based paint-as sold at the tractor supply? Specifically, compatibility with primers?

motomoron wrote: PPG DP 40 is great. I've used it forever and it's tenacious and durable. PPG materials catalog You can find it in "primer / surfacers" in the "Deltron" section.

+1 Big fan of DP40

wheelsmithy wrote: Thank you all, very edifying. Anybody know anything about naptha based paint-as sold at the tractor supply? Specifically, compatibility with primers?

Its a crapshoot. I've used NAPA tractor paint...same basic stuff. Really just depends on the primer but to be honest most times it will react with existing paint and you need a sealer primer that is compatible with the paint to isolate the layers and prevent reaction.