UAW Labor-Page 2: Off-topic discussion forum: Grassroots Motorsports Magazine

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Jan. 27, 2009 9:33 p.m. jamscal HalfDork

poopshovel wrote:

Tim's example is taking things to an extreme, but maybe it's time to expect the foreign companies to treat their workers the same as American workers.

Praise jeebus hallelujah amen. I've been screaming this for years. How the berkeley is US manufacturing EVER supposed to compete in the world market...or even our country, when we don't demand that the people we trade with have the same labor standards as the US!? If I had an army of Chinese political prisoners, chained up and welding away in my basement, I could get rich off of selling $100 turbo manifolds too!

I don't disagreee, but...

The counter to this is that Industrial America was built on basically the same poor conditions that exist now in the emerging nations.

America had decades of horrible working conditions, no child labor laws, and no pollution controls. We rose from that. They are rising too.

-James
Jan. 28, 2009 2:32 a.m. Wally UltraDork

aircooled wrote:

Clay wrote: ...At TMMK in Kentucky it wasn't uncommon for guys to work there during their Summer break from college and end up dropping out of college to work on the line as they could make more doing that than they would after they graduated college. Obviously not a great long term strategy, but it gives you an idea of how well they were compensated...

I think this is the basis of what the bad feelings for the auto unions are. You might say, yes sure, some are jealous that they can't get the same "pot of gold". But at a higher level it's just sad. Do you really want to encourage people to become line workers rather than educated scientists? Shouldn't what you make have some other basis other then what your union can squeeze out. A union that is effectively backed by the government I might add.

If it makes you feel better you can float here in a raft, throw a ball a few nights a week over the summer and make $12 million. There are a lot of people who went into science knowing what it paid. One could look at this and wonder why white collar workers sell themselves so short. If you think you are worth so much more than someone else why aren't you holding out for it.
Jan. 28, 2009 8:13 a.m. Clay Reader

My example was actually to show how well Toyota employees are payed WITHOUT having a union there to squeeze the company. There have always been 2 ways to make lots of money, work hard and work smart. I don't get down on people in the trades who earn good money and work hard. That's something to be admired. The Toyota line workers could make more than an entry level engineer, but they worked 60 hours or more with overtime to do it. And the long term increases in pay for the college grad engineers was a lot higher. The same guys on the line who had dropped out of college to work there soon realized how they had limited themselves in the long run and regretted the move. Still, Toyota paid well for hard work. The good pay also helps retain employees and keeps the employees from wanting to bring in a union.
Jan. 28, 2009 10:16 a.m. spitfirebill HalfDork

Tim Baxter wrote:

Actually, my example (and remember, devil's advocate) used the textile industry.

Yeah about 80-100 years ago.
Jan. 28, 2009 10:33 a.m. aircooled Dork

Wally wrote: ...If it makes you feel better you can float here in a raft, throw a ball a few nights a week over the summer and make $12 million....

That would be a more relevant point if being a top notch professional baseball pitcher was something the majority of the populace could do, rather than an incredibly rare talent (like maybe on in 50,000 million). Just being a pro player at all takes some very rare skill. There is NO way you can say that about a auto line worker.

Baseball salaries are also based on free market bargaining. Yes there is a union and yes they have agents, but the salary negotiation are not based on all the players striking but rather what teams are willing to pay to get that one player. The only way the union would come into play would likely be the base pay players.

Baseball is also not currently being subsidized by the federal government.
Jan. 28, 2009 11:37 a.m. mad_machine SuperDork

ok.. how about this example for how a union protects you?

I work in multiple casinos here in Atlantic City as a stage Electrician and an A/V tech (depending on what casino)

My full time gig is an A/V tech at harrahs Atlantic City.

Our department, which was already stretched thin, went from 12 to 9 people. I was one of the three laid off.

to get the work done.. they have to work SPLIT shifts. 4 in the morning, 4 in the evening. Being a non-union house.. their choices were.. do it or quit.

Some of the guys live an hour from work.

In a Union house, that would never fly. They would have somebody to complain to and file a grievence. In a non-union house, you are SOL.
Jan. 28, 2009 12:31 p.m. Strizzo Dork

well that gives them plenty of time to look for a new job in the middle of the day
Jan. 28, 2009 12:48 p.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

And in the union house it would eventually wind up being like the UAW: all kinds of bloated benefits helping strangle the industry.

Face facts, people: the economy is cyclical. In many cases the only way for a company to survive is to cut back on staff. No one likes it, it's an ugly fact of life.

FWIW, my dime ownin' brother in law is a very talented brick mason and does construction (mostly intricate stuff like custom pattern fireplaces) with a small company down here. The owner of the company had a helluva downturn in business because the housing finance pinch cut off the refinance money that was the source of most of his revenue. He took out a personal loan and used it to pay his guys to do work on his own house, then continued to pay them even when they had no work, trying to keep the business alive and money in his employees' pockets. He has now had to slim the thing down to 3 people (one is my b-i-l) and they are part time only. No telling what will happen next but it don't look good.

We placed an ad for a parts manager and parts counterperson, for those two spots we received almost 200 applications from people who have been laid off from dealerships around the area. The thing is, the people who have been laid off were mostly commissioned employees. That's rough when you lay off commissioned employees. The local Suzuki dealership abruptly closed both of their stores. That's not good.

We are sitting tight, we expect to see a bump in the service business as the word gets around that the other shops are running short staffed and people elect to come here.
Jan. 28, 2009 1:17 p.m. oldopelguy HalfDork

poopshovel wrote:

Tim's example is taking things to an extreme, but maybe it's time to expect the foreign companies to treat their workers the same as American workers.

Praise jeebus hallelujah amen. I've been screaming this for years. How the berkeley is US manufacturing EVER supposed to compete in the world market...or even our country, when we don't demand that the people we trade with have the same labor standards as the US!? If I had an army of Chinese political prisoners, chained up and welding away in my basement, I could get rich off of selling $100 turbo manifolds too!

See, from the other side of the coin, maybe it's time Americans stop having such unrealistic expectations for their standard of living. I have a good life now, and I can afford toys and property, but I don't think of it as an entitlement.
My grandparents got by with a garden for a large portion of their food, hardly ever eating out, and thrift as a way of life. They also didn't have huge TVs, new cars, and cel phones, and they turned out just fine. They also usually lived with their extended family to save $ and help raise the kids. Why do we as young Americans think we are etitled to a better way of life with less work on our part?

Is it because those people worked so hard so we wouldn't have to, and since we didn't have to do the work to survive we now choose not to? That's fine, but human history proves that people who are unwilling to sacrifice and work hard are doomed to failure. I'm not wishing it on anyone, not trying to stir anything up, it's just the way the world has always worked.