vague dealer service question: Off-topic discussion forum: Grassroots Motorsports Magazine

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July 17, 2008 2:50 p.m. doitover New Reader

I have MINI that I've owned for nearly a year. It occasionally grinds on the first 1-2 shift. Most often when it's cold, accelerate briskly but not WOT, shift at 4K and GRIND. After about a mile or in warm weather it rarely grinds but I often fell the shifter bouncing off of something with teeth on the 1-2 shift. Besides this the clutch is what seems to me to be incredibly vague. Naturally the dealer sees none of this. I took their advice and waited to hit 3,000 miles. It still does it. They still can't duplicate it or feel anything is wrong with the clutch.

They are asking for a factory rep to have a look but I'm not too optimistic. I'm starting to think this is in my head but I absolutely hate the car and everyone else loves theirs so I can't believe they are all like this.

Hmmm, guess I'm not asking for advice, just ranting.

Someone here suggested switching oil in it, which the dealer aggreed sometimes fixes this problem that doesn't exist. But, if it failed later and they decided it was the trans lube it wouldn't be covered. So crap.
July 17, 2008 2:54 p.m. confuZion3 HalfDork

Clutch feels vague? Maybe it's not engaging fully when you depress the pedal. I can see how this would affect your first-to-second shift. Or, maybe the transmission is bad.

That said, both my BMW Z3 (97,000 miles) and my '94 Miata (240,000 miles) have a tendency to be a bit strange going into second. I double-clutch the Miata most of the time so I don't replicate it over and over (I think it's going to fail if I keep it up - it makes a real strange noise and kinda feels like you're describing). I just deal with the Z3. Maybe I'll sell the Z3 and get a real sports car (Corvette?) .

If my post doesn't make sense, so be it. Lol. I've edited it like 5 times. I'm done.
July 17, 2008 2:59 p.m. bludroptop Dork

Drive a different one and see if it is the same as yours?
July 17, 2008 3:17 p.m. doitover New Reader

Yes but I'm not willing to do it at the dealer. I've been down the path of the ride along where they tell you that what you see or feel isn't there. The last time was after getting a car back from an alignment with the steering wheel not centered. Went out with the alignment guy and with the wheel clearly off center turns to me with a straight face and says, see it's fine.

If this attempt doesn't work out I'll probably look up the local MINI club. If I had time for that sort of thing there's about 100 other things I'd need to do first.

ConfuZion3, your post makes sense. Doesn't make me feel any better to know I have the equivalent of cars with more than 97K miles though. :)

bludroptop wrote:

Drive a different one and see if it is the same as yours?
July 17, 2008 3:19 p.m. Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director

Dunno...MC or MCS? R53 or R56?

There are a few known issues with clutches/flywheels on the new cars (a groan while downshifting to second, occasionally). Frankly, many of the issues seem like people expecting utter perfection from a machine of man. Mine occasionally does the same thing. So? It's not hurting anything other than this occasionally odd sound.

Reminds me of the joke where the patient says, "It hurts when I do this." To which the doctor replies, "Then stop doing it."

Even Hondas have issues though...our 2002 Civic Si ground its third gear synchros nearly from day 1. It's got tons of track miles on it and still runs great. Who cares?
July 17, 2008 3:32 p.m. aircooled Dork

Per Schroeder wrote: ...our 2002 Civic Si ground its third gear synchros nearly from day 1. It's got tons of track miles on it and still runs great. Who cares?...

If you can guarantee that it will not kill the transmission at 75,000 then maybe. But even still, unless every car does that, it will still likely affect the resale value. I am not sure why you should accept a car that is substandard to all the other copies of that car when you paid the same price. Again if you can guarantee it is not a problem, that is one thing, but noise almost always indicated wear, who much wear, it is hard to know.
July 17, 2008 3:43 p.m. doitover New Reader

R56 MCS

It hurts my ego a ton when I pull out into traffic and grind the gears. Unlike most folks here I buy cars and keep them until they die but I've still owned 6 manual cars, driven others including hauling grain through muddy fields, and none of them have behaved this way.

If they all grind, then I could learn to live with that. The vague clutch feel makes it impossible for me to be smooth, or at least as smooth as I could be. It feels like a Corvette I owned with a leaking slave cylinder, except that on that I could pump the pedal and get the feel back.

I don't have the 3-2 problem but on the other hand I rarely downshift to brake.

Anyway, thanks for siding with the dealer. Want to buy another MINI? :) Seriously, I kid.

Per Schroeder wrote:

Dunno...MC or MCS? R53 or R56?

There are a few known issues with clutches/flywheels on the new cars (a groan while downshifting to second, occasionally). Frankly, many of the issues seem like people expecting utter perfection from a machine of man. Mine occasionally does the same thing. So? It's not hurting anything other than this occasionally odd sound.

Reminds me of the joke where the patient says, "It hurts when I do this." To which the doctor replies, "Then stop doing it."

Even Hondas have issues though...our 2002 Civic Si ground its third gear synchros nearly from day 1. It's got tons of track miles on it and still runs great. Who cares?
July 17, 2008 3:47 p.m. Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director

Yea, I probably would buy another MINI.

Have you tried changing the gear oil?
July 17, 2008 4:06 p.m. Dr. Hess SuperDork

Redline MTL. It's like New Syncros in a Bottle.
July 17, 2008 4:06 p.m. doitover New Reader

No, it would be up to their discretion to honor the warranty if I did. I thought I should exhaust all other options first. If they aren't able to do anything about it this time I'll probably take the chance.

By buy another MINI, I meant mine. :) I think it's a great little car as well, if it could be fixed. As it is, I might as well be driving a beater.

Per Schroeder wrote:

Yea, I probably would buy another MINI.

Have you tried changing the gear oil?
July 17, 2008 5:03 p.m. Jensenman SuperDork

If you have documented a tranny problem while it's under warranty, let them change the tranny oil (even at your expense) and use only genuine MINI lube. That way there is no question of 'did a different lube make it break' and you have documented proof (the RO copy) that you tried to address your concern through proper channels.

Get the service manager to ride with you, show him what it's doing (preferably before changing the lube) and get an RO copy showing dates and mileages.

If the problem manifests itself during the test drive, make sure that's reflected on the RO. Don't be nasty or smart ass (not saying that you would); that's the single best way to get them to not be on your side.

If they refuse to cooperate, contact MINI's customer assistance line and let them know of your concern. Caution: at the dealership this is viewed in a similar fashion as smacking a hornet nest with a stick and can sometimes make enemies. Do this as a last resort.

Remember honey vs. vinegar! In fact, I know a girl who had a Chevy with a water leak, her hubby was a real jerk. He couldn't get a thing done. She took the car in with a big ol' plate of homemade cookies, damn if it didn't get fixed.

I don't know about MINI, but many manufacturers require documentation that a problem has been duplicated before attempting any repairs. Repairs performed on a first visit where a damaged or defective part cannot be returned are subject to chargeback, which the dealership wants to avoid (it kills the bottom line).

FWIW, to me it sounds like a bent or worn shift fork.
July 17, 2008 6:38 p.m. yo vanilla New Reader

I think the next thing you should do is seek out a Mini forum and see who else is having this problem. Chances are you aren't the only one.
July 17, 2008 8:09 p.m. oldopelguy HalfDork

Check over at NAM, I remember a few folks having similar issues. My R56 made a wobbly/grindy noise in neutral and idling, like a bad throwout bearing not quite dis-engaged, but the dealership claimed they couldn't hear it either. They did change the fluid in the transmission, though, just to see if it would help. It never got worse in the 22k miles I had the car, but it didn't inspire confidence.

I considered myself lucky, though. Have you heard this: Cold start rattle

Watch the videos. Scary enough to make a guy (like me) sell the car outright.
July 18, 2008 8:28 a.m. doitover New Reader

Thanks all for the advice. I did check NAM when I first took the car in for this. I gave them a link to a thread where people talked about this issue. Two or three had their transmissions replaced for it. Even with that and the MINI reference number for the issue they still plead ignorance to anyone having this problem. It does seem to have affected very few cars, I've checked the forum occasionally since then and it hasn't seemed to have come up again.

I've been as patient as I can be with them although I didn't think about bringing cookies. :) Next time I'm over there I'll bring some.

I had read about the cold start rattle and feel pretty lucky to live where it seldom gets cold.

oldopelguy wrote:

Check over at NAM, I remember a few folks having similar issues. My R56 made a wobbly/grindy noise in neutral and idling, like a bad throwout bearing not quite dis-engaged, but the dealership claimed they couldn't hear it either. They did change the fluid in the transmission, though, just to see if it would help. It never got worse in the 22k miles I had the car, but it didn't inspire confidence.

I considered myself lucky, though. Have you heard this: Cold start rattle

Watch the videos. Scary enough to make a guy (like me) sell the car outright.
July 18, 2008 9:12 a.m. Jensenman SuperDork

You would think that, given the onward march of engine technology, that MINI would have figured out how to rapidly get oil to neccessary areas ASAP. The VANOS thing sounds very similar to Mazda's 'tumble valve' cold rattle on the Protege and Protege 5. That was a normal noise (it wasn't even internal engine) but it would scare the @*&% out of you on a real cold morning because it was LOUD.

When the 907 Lotus was first put into production, some road tests showed that the oil pressure would not begin to rise until the engine had been running for about a full minute. One magazine reported an average of 50 seconds. Lotus discovered that the oil pump's placement on the engine would allow the housing to drain completely overnight; when the engine was started the oil pressure could not build quickly due to the pump being full of air. Their fix was to drill a .050 hole through the oil pump housing into the side of the crankcase, that way when the engine was started the air would be forced through the hole and then the oil would seal the .050 hole.