when did you know that it was time to file?

what lesley and golfduke said.

Eventually, you end up numbing yourself emotionally to get by the day to day that you can't tell how sad and unhappy you really are.

I will say that if you are there and decide to pull the pin, try to be objective as possible. My ex is a good person but was a E36 M3ty girlfriend to me the last few years (of 6+). I wasn't perfect, either. It's a lot easier to move forward if you own your own faults and try not to think of your ex negatively. For a long time you chose to stay, and if you do, you'll choose to leave. Try to own that as a choice, not being a victim of your ex's actions, intentions or any circumstances.

I realized it once I finally sobered up how miserable I was. I was out of that house in an hour. When you wake up and realize that your stuff is getting sold to make money instead of saving it and not spending it on stupid owl dishes and such, thats when I knew. But not a one story will be the same as yours. Or as mine, or anyone elses. Truthfully only you can answer that question. As everyone else is saying, if you have to ask, and if you have to ask US...then I think you have your answer. There is no easy button. Theres no right answer. There is just, did you do everything you could? But thats just my $.02.

In reply to HiTempguy:

that sounds exactly like my situation, only she may be the one who loves and while I want her to be happy, wish her the best and don't find her to be a bad person at all, there's just no love between us.

I should have punched out six months into my marriage but I'm WAY too stubborn for my own good and kept doubling down on the relationship adding more and more stuff, kids, time to the mix until when things finally ended it was as bad and ugly as it was possible to be.

Now instead of having a kinds funny story about my failed six month marriage back in the '90s where I never ever have to hear from or see her ever again I have an ex and two kids I support for the next decade.

I've said before and I'll repeat now: if there are no kids involved, go your seperate ways and move on. If there are kids however, things should be settled with a duel. Closure that way.

One day, I actually felt the physical click of a switch in my brain as I approached the front door. "Ok, time to put on the fake personality that doesn't get you into trouble."

Gone 6 months later, after over 25 years.

For me it was when we were in the middle of a marriage counseling session and the therapist (a 60 something Swiss psychologist) paused for a moment to think and then calmly asked my then wife to leave the room.

Once she was gone he slowly pulled his chair right up to me, leaned in close, and while intensely starring through his super bushy and stark white eye brows slowly said….

Rarely…..rarely do I recommend divorce…..but in your case…..I am going to make an exception.

This was long before smartphones but if it wasn’t, I could have played that cartoon sound effect of bongo drums followed by a ricochet and he most certainly would have said “yes…..yes…..exactly”

Hehehehe

drummerfromdefleopard wrote: In reply to HiTempguy: that sounds exactly like my situation, only she may be the one who loves and while I want her to be happy, wish her the best and don't find her to be a bad person at all, there's just no love between us.

That doesn't make you a bad person. But if it is YOU that's fallen out of love with her, it IMO is your responsibility to bring it up and try and work on it (if you haven't). I tried working on things with my girlfriend for months upon months (I know right? Two years and months of it was dedicated to stuff like that?). But I believe that if I think I love a person, I need to do everything in my power to make the relationship work. If the person doesn't want to receive that? Then it is time to move on. And vice versa, you only hurt each other by keeping something together that one party has decided they don't want.

If you care to share, what has changed? If you say she loves you, then she must presumably be nice towards you at least? I'm coming from the angle that it's a special "thing" for two people to meet who treat each other with respect and care for years on end. I personally don't ask for much more from a relationship except for those two things (and sex, seriously, sex is important).

It might help to step back and write down what is good and bad about the relationship. If you are truly just bored, that sounds like a counselling thing more than a "f*&k this I give up thing".

In terms of sex, I learned something very important one time while listening to an AM talk show that was hosted by a psychologist (come on, no worse than getting marriage advice from a car forum).

Guy calls in and says he’s feeling incredibly guilty because he’s considering divorcing his wife solely because she has no libido. He goes on to say that they have children and that she’s a good person in every other way (honest, decent, productive, non-abusive, etc.). He finishes by apologizing for being so selfish and asks for guidance on coping with the lack of intimacy.

The psychologist asked him if he would marry his sister and he staunchly said of course not.

The psychologist then asked, isn’t your sister honest and decent and productive and non-abusive and the caller said with a confused voice, yes.

Psychologist - So why then wouldn’t you marry your sister.

Caller after a long pause- Because I wouldn’t have sex with her.

Psychologist – You’re married to your sister even though you never agreed to it. You have every right to be frustrated and do whatever is necessary to find happiness.

Hmmm

The day my (now ex-) mother-in-law told me, "Honestly, I don't know how you put up with her sh*t."

In reply to HiTempguy:

I'll give a complete proper response when I have more time to type it out.

RX Reven' wrote: For me it was when we were in the middle of a marriage counseling session and the therapist (a 60 something Swiss psychologist) paused for a moment to think and then calmly asked my then wife to leave the room. Once she was gone he slowly pulled his chair right up to me, leaned in close, and while intensely starring through his super bushy and stark white eye brows slowly said…. Rarely…..rarely do I recommend divorce…..but in your case…..I am going to make an exception. This was long before smartphones but if it wasn’t, I could have played that cartoon sound effect of bongo drums followed by a ricochet and he most certainly would have said “yes…..yes…..exactly” Hehehehe

Holy E36 M3!!! That's soooo un-professionnal! That guy just crossed to #1 rule when you are a counselor. If your ex-wife ever knew about this, she could very easily sue him. And I wouldn't even blame her...can't beleive I just wrote that.

To the OP, warning, here comes a lot a relationship theory.

The first step is to make sure you are correctly identifying your needs and how she relates to them. And I'm not just talking sex here. A lot of problems in a relationship come from people wanting their partners to guess their needs. And they feel frustrated when their partners keep not guessing the right thing. The language of love link that was posted before is an expression of this.

Once that's identified, make clear, precise demands. Not hints, but direct demands. And keep it to your needs and not what she isn't doing. For example you say: "I would like to try this new sex position with you" and not "You're not adventurous enough sexually"

Doing this can fix the vast majority of relationships, but it's a lot of work...like a lot. So you have to determine if it's worth it.

For me, I have three young kids with my ex-wife so I did all this. When she told me she really didn't give a E36 M3 about my needs, it was time to move on. Because when you take away all the emotional stuff, the un-romantic thruth is that we are in relationships because they fill some needs.

HiTempguy wrote: If you say she loves you, then she must presumably be nice towards you at least?

"I love you but I'm not in love with you."

When this happens you've basically got a roommate, not a marriage. There are typically two reasons for this: your spouse isn't attracted to you anymore and/or female hypergamy has kicked in.

It is a very difficult thing to accept that your wife doesn't find you attractive. It may not even be physical; she may just feel you are a follower, a weak man, a cuckold. If you've gained weight, become a couch potato, deferred decisions to her and failed to lead...well, you may have brought it upon yourself. Sadly, few of us realize this. The myth that people should "love you for who you are" is bull malarky. Just because someone once found you attractive and married you doesn't mean it will stay that way because of a ring on her finger.

A man's job is to be a leader. My favorite example is "I don't care" is not the name of a restaurant. You should always have an answer for such a question when she does not. You pick if she can't. If she doesn't like it, too bad, she had her shot. Try it; you'll be surprised at the results after a few of these situations.

Jesus dude. The 1950s are calling...

Well played Lesley.

Rad_Capz wrote: When she bought a 16 room Victorian mansion with my credit after I told her NO.

Really?

This thread delivers.

ddavidv wrote: "I love you but I'm not in love with you." When this happens you've basically got a roommate, not a marriage. There are typically two reasons for this: your spouse isn't attracted to you anymore and/or female hypergamy has kicked in. It is a very difficult thing to accept that your wife doesn't find you attractive. It may not even be physical; she may just feel you are a follower, a weak man, a cuckold. If you've gained weight, become a couch potato, deferred decisions to her and failed to lead...well, you may have brought it upon yourself. Sadly, few of us realize this. The myth that people should "love you for who you are" is bull malarky. Just because someone once found you attractive and married you doesn't mean it will stay that way because of a ring on her finger. A man's job is to be a leader. My favorite example is "I don't care" is not the name of a restaurant. You should always have an answer for such a question when she does not. You pick if she can't. If she doesn't like it, too bad, she had her shot. Try it; you'll be surprised at the results after a few of these situations.

You do realize that this sounds exactly like "I suddenly realized I could just do what I want and let the chips fall where they may"?

I mean, really... you could have always done that. So, assigning some 1950s "Man is the king of his domain" stuff to your new found personal freedom sounds like every ex-smoker or prison-born-again christian telling you stuff you have taken for granted your whole life. Do what you want. End up where you will. It's not a new thing.

As expected, you completely missed the bigger picture. You are attaching the emotional to my statements while ignoring the biological. There is a big difference between showing leadership (making decisions and taking the reins) and being a domineering arsehole (You will do this or else).

Human biology is engineered that men lead. Decades of feminism and "you go girl" have made inroads to try to disguise this fact (and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying equality in jobs and other things is a bad thing). The dumbing down of men in popular culture has been occurring unnoticed for years. When you begin to think about how Everybody Loves Raymond depicts all men as idiots and the women merely tolerant of their existence you have an excellent illustration of this trend.

Consider: what men do women tend to swoon over the most? Strong (and handsome) leaders and/or 'bad boys'. George Clooney. Johnny Depp. Brad Pitt. Matt Damon. Liam Neeson. Ray Romano? Oh, they find him funny but he doesn't give them tingles.

Which is how many of us wind up after umpteen years of marriage. We've become Ray Barones, not James Bonds. We often started out as sort-of James Bonds, wooing and courting our women, having outside interests, doing things that may appear dangerous (hunting, motorcycle riding) but after careers, kids and complacency we often let these things fade without realizing it. Suddenly we find ourselves in a sexless marriage (no attraction) and think we can appease her good nature to get the desire back (if I only do more around the house or buy her XYZ). Unfortunately, while they may SAY that's what they want it almost always doesn't increase attraction/affection.

I'm willing to have the debate about all this. Like I said earlier, I've spent the last nearly two years studying the phenomenon and have had to accept many of my perceptions of love and relationships were wrong. These concepts are difficult to sell to those unwilling to consider them, and if you're in a happy relationship you have no desire to alter your thinking. The reason I'm promoting such controversy in this thread is to awaken guys to the idea if your relationship is failing, you may be a big part of the problem and have more power than you think to fix it.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: You do realize that this sounds exactly like "I suddenly realized I could just do what I want and let the chips fall where they may"?

I'm picking this out because it's not my situation at all. I have no newfound freedom. I'm not single; I'm still married after 23 years and a recent period I started to wonder if we'd see year 25. It's not at all about freedom or even power/control. I have no interest in being a dictator or a parent to my spouse. What I have done is become Captain of the ship. I lead my First Officer where WE need to go. This simple dynamic has greatly changed how we interact and ultimately saved a troubled marriage.

Being single and employing a MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) way of thinking is something completely different. That's a life that I can sort-of understand but really have no desire to live. I like women and prefer to live with them. MGTOW guys are the opposite of radical feminists; they see no need for women in their lives. That thinking is sad to me.

My dad and I had several talks after my marriage exploded (no it didn't implode, it was nowhere near quiet). He'd been married and divorced twice; we were talking about when he and my mom came to the realization that it was over. He said something I'll never forget: that there comes a time in a situation like theirs when you suddenly realize that it's done, over, fini, choose your own word. He said his epiphany moment came when he was sitting in the line of traffic waiting to turn out of the neighborhood; with sudden clarity he knew his marriage of 23 years was done. I had had a similar incident but it was during an attempted discussion about our tax filings; I realized during that discussion that we were done. If you've had that kind of moment, I honestly don't see how you'd be able to come back from that.

About MGTOW: I also discovered that despite outward appearances many of my married friends were not happy in their marriages. That was a revelation in itself. It got me to wondering about the true value of such an institution if it's going to lead to so much misery.

Don't get me wrong, I also have friends whose marriages are still going strong after many years but I'm personally at the point that I don't want to risk it ever again. Period. It would probably be mostly my fault for not picking the right person; I seem to have a history of bad women decisions. No matter the real underlying reason, the last thing I want is to be stuck in a miserable relationship when I fall off the perch.

In reply to ddavidv:

Can we please not make this another "red pill" thread? There's already plenty of those on reddit and elsewhere. You've said your piece (multiple times), now let it lie. He'll either investigate more on his own, or go another way. A previous poster's "prison conversion" analogy was quite apt. It's great that you've found something that worked for you, but assuming it works for everyone is just as childish as any other one-size-fits-all solution.

Curmudgeon wrote: My dad and I had several talks after my marriage exploded (no it didn't implode, it was nowhere near quiet). He'd been married and divorced twice; we were talking about when he and my mom came to the realization that it was over. He said something I'll never forget: that there comes a time in a situation like theirs when you suddenly realize that it's done, over, fini, choose your own word. He said his epiphany moment came when he was sitting in the line of traffic waiting to turn out of the neighborhood; with sudden clarity he knew his marriage of 23 years was done. I had had a similar incident but it was during an attempted discussion about our tax filings; I realized during that discussion that we were done. If you've had that kind of moment, I honestly don't see how you'd be able to come back from that. About MGTOW: I also discovered that despite outward appearances many of my married friends were not happy in their marriages. That was a revelation in itself. It got me to wondering about the true value of such an institution if it's going to lead to so much misery. Don't get me wrong, I also have friends whose marriages are still going strong after many years but I'm personally at the point that I don't want to risk it ever again. Period. It would probably be mostly my fault for not picking the right person; I seem to have a history of bad women decisions. No matter the real underlying reason, the last thing I want is to be stuck in a miserable relationship when I fall off the perch.

I just turned 33 last month, and I can say I'll never get married again.

Although I never expected to get married in the first place since I'm pretty militant about not wanting children. So who knows.

At this point I'm just going to do what makes me happy............and doesn't get me in too much trouble.

A lot of problems in a relationship come from people wanting their partners to guess their needs. And they feel frustrated when their partners keep not guessing the right thing. The language of love link that was posted before is an expression of this.

I disagree, in a sense. I think that two people who want to be together should work on knowing what the other person wants. For instance:

My GFY moment in my relationship was after I had podium'd at a recent rally. Its been a hell of a 3 years to get to that point. After the champagne had been sprayed, everything packed up, it was late and I was heading home on a 4 hour drive.

So what do I do? Naturally, text the girlfriend to see if she is awake so we can chat as it'll be too late to see her that night.

The reply back I get is "can't chat, hanging out with friends".

I don't want to be in a relationship that I have to sit down and explain to someone every minute of the day how to act like a proper partner. I don't need to babysit the relationship. So berkeley that. If a person can't be expected to extend the slightest amount of effort to taking into account things their partner has asked for before, then again, I have no interest.

And that is why a lot of relationships fail: selfishness. Followed by ignorance.

I am a pretty expressive person, I let people know how I feel and what I want/need. I get really sick and tired of everyone always blaming the person who has problems in a relationship to " look in the mirror". Its the exact opposite stance taken to 99% of other situations and it gets old.

z31maniac wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote: My dad and I had several talks after my marriage exploded (no it didn't implode, it was nowhere near quiet). He'd been married and divorced twice; we were talking about when he and my mom came to the realization that it was over. He said something I'll never forget: that there comes a time in a situation like theirs when you suddenly realize that it's done, over, fini, choose your own word. He said his epiphany moment came when he was sitting in the line of traffic waiting to turn out of the neighborhood; with sudden clarity he knew his marriage of 23 years was done. I had had a similar incident but it was during an attempted discussion about our tax filings; I realized during that discussion that we were done. If you've had that kind of moment, I honestly don't see how you'd be able to come back from that. About MGTOW: I also discovered that despite outward appearances many of my married friends were not happy in their marriages. That was a revelation in itself. It got me to wondering about the true value of such an institution if it's going to lead to so much misery. Don't get me wrong, I also have friends whose marriages are still going strong after many years but I'm personally at the point that I don't want to risk it ever again. Period. It would probably be mostly my fault for not picking the right person; I seem to have a history of bad women decisions. No matter the real underlying reason, the last thing I want is to be stuck in a miserable relationship when I fall off the perch.

I just turned 33 last month, and I can say I'll never get married again. Although I never expected to get married in the first place since I'm pretty militant about not wanting children. So who knows. At this point I'm just going to do what makes me happy............and doesn't get me in too much trouble.

Neither my wife nor myself want children. We didn't want them 12 years ago either, when we first started dating. All I'm saying is don't dismiss having another relationship because of this....we made that decision and couldn't be happier. There are many positives to not having kids.

My ex didn't want them either, so that wasn't the issue.

Yes, living in a small house with good dual incomes and no kids was definitely a treat. It allowed lots of fun and travel.