03Panther said:
In reply to aircooled :
* While outdoors in public spaces when maintaining a physical distance of six feet from persons who are not members of the same household or residence is not feasible.
I did not read all of CA's rules. But the sentience in the box, while written poorly, I think states that as long as I can maintain 6 feet distance I don't need a mask. I think my blue highlights are correct?
If I am reading that correctly, it supports my position that the actual mandates do not state what is being said and promoted, even on here.
Yes, you are correct I believe. I kind of supported my own point about the confusion by being confused myself, doh!
Didn't stop that old couple from trying to shame my after they approached me though...
I kind of supported my own point about the confusion by being confused myself, doh!
So easy to do , 'specially in the middle of all this! And my language skills (says mr obvious) ain't the best! 
My did did always call me a jail house lawyer, though
Didn't stop that old couple from trying to shame my after they approached me though.
That's the kinda stuff I try to discourage by trying for accuracy and understanding of what's right.
ProDarwin said:
I think the reason they are still mandated in these conditions is that the droplets linger in the air for quite a while in indoor environments, and it is quite common for others to pass through the air you just exhaled shortly after you were there. Plus, without a mask, when you exhale the droplets from your breath get on things that others touch.
You may be right in some instances, but most places are not mandated by regulation. Most are guidelines established by businesses to try to limit their liability exposure.
The Feds have failed to pass anything that would protect businesses from liability. Businesses are seeing this as a major hot mess coming down the pike, especially as it relates to OSHA and the OSH Act General Duty Clause.
The General Duty Clause says "Each employer shall furnish to each of his employees employment and a place of employment which are free from recognized hazards that are causing or are likely to cause death or serious physical harm to his employees.”
Since COVID is a "recognized hazard" and Feds have offered no guidelines or relief to this, businesses recognize that their liability could be huge. A single case of a person becoming infected could lead to thousands of claims that the employer failed to "provide a place of employment that was free from recognized hazards". This would be the death of almost any business.
So, businesses are enacting guidelines that at least look like they are making an effort (even if they have no actual guidelines, no medical knowledge, and no idea what works and what does not).
The purpose of the masks (and other measures) in many businesses is simply to provide an opportunity to document that they made an effort to protect workers. If they don't, they liability could destroy the business.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:
ProDarwin said:
I think the reason they are still mandated in these conditions is that the droplets linger in the air for quite a while in indoor environments, and it is quite common for others to pass through the air you just exhaled shortly after you were there. Plus, without a mask, when you exhale the droplets from your breath get on things that others touch.
The purpose of the masks (and other measures) in many businesses is simply to provide an opportunity to document that they made an effort to protect workers. If they don't, they liability could destroy their business.
I would hope that it also to prevent the spread and improve the potential market of their businesses.
https://www.goldmansachs.com/insights/pages/the-link-between-face-masks-and-gdp.html
bobzilla said:
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
Ohio is going to a mask in public spaces law effective tomorrow evening for some counties.
I read the twitter thread. Lotta snowflakes complaining and saying they are going to sue.
You're perfectly free to stay home, you know...
except those that have to go to work. And have been for months. Barn door folks. This attitude applies to those that are afraid of a ~.2-.4% chance of dying from it. I really got to say this attitude is REALLY pissing me off. So instead of shutting down the 99.6-99.8% of the population that wont die, why don't we shut down those at risk instead? Seems like it would do the economy and mental well being of our society a hell of a lot more good than the BS we're doing now.
I keep hearing this about protect those at risk in various places. But I have never seen any ideas on how to do this. When I brought up an idea, it lead to an arguement with another member. I'd love to hear ideas on how to deal with this.
In reply to 93EXCivic :
It's certainly a case-by-case issue. Is there a particular at-risk group you are asking about?
In reply to 93EXCivic :
Well for starters DON'T do what PA did and send the positive patients BACK into the nursing homes they came from.
In fact closing the door to non employees of nursing homes and long term care centers would probably have helped immensely across the country, except when there's a pandemic everyone who's been ignoring their locked up family members decides it's a perfect time to visit.
mtn (Forum Supporter) said:
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:
ProDarwin said:
I think the reason they are still mandated in these conditions is that the droplets linger in the air for quite a while in indoor environments, and it is quite common for others to pass through the air you just exhaled shortly after you were there. Plus, without a mask, when you exhale the droplets from your breath get on things that others touch.
The purpose of the masks (and other measures) in many businesses is simply to provide an opportunity to document that they made an effort to protect workers. If they don't, they liability could destroy their business.
I would hope that it also to prevent the spread and improve the potential market of their businesses.
https://www.goldmansachs.com/insights/pages/the-link-between-face-masks-and-gdp.html
if that was the case, we would have been mandated masks MONTHS ago when we were deemed "essential". Because it is only happening now with a mandate from the mayor tells me this is nothing more than CYA move to limit liability. Never mind they already sent many of us out to conferences to pick it up and bring it back in early march.
In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :
I agree that preventing spread is also good for business, but that is well beyond the capacity for most businesses.
The general thinking is about liability, and public perception.
Foe example... I was in a restaurant last week. Pizza and beer. They gave me plastic knives and forks. This made no sense to me... have they lost their ability to wash utensils? And why was my pizza served on a china plate, and my beer in a glass mug? Somehow I'm less likely to get infected from the mug than from the fork?
It was silly. But it was an easy thing the restaurant to do to try and sway public perception.
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
Agree completely. My company is bending over backwards to find that happy medium that allows for work to get done.
For better or worse, one could argue the Fed response is vague for exactly these reasons as well, "The OSHA guidelines are enough to tell you what you need to do."
mtn (Forum Supporter) said:
(In case you're still here)
Wearing masks help the economy, health of the nation, and gets us back to "normal" sooner. Why is the mandate/law of a mask unjust or something to get up in arms about?
I understand the "You're welcome to stay home" line upsets you. It upsets me too, from the other side. It applies to both arguments, which means, in my opinion, that it isn't worth typing/saying.
The timing on this was a little.... off. I'm sitting at my desk, surrounded by splash shields with the nearest person 15-20' BEHIND and to the left of me, blocked by 3 splah shields. I have my face covering up to the bottom of my nose so it doesn't fog my glasses so I can see the screens I'm working from and some mask nazi decides to make a big deal about me not having it over my nose.... After I have been in the same building with the same people for months with none of these things in place. After the same company sent many of us on conferences that were with international clients etc at the beginning of march and led to my sickness. They didn't give two E36 M3s then. But when the mayor decides to make a new mandate they decide to go mask nazi.
Look, I avoid people in public in general. I've already been there got hte tshirt and chest pains. I've been out in the world doing out in the world things because I have to. To now, on the downswing, enact silly E36 M3 like this makes me angry. To walk a thin line here.... the openings didn't cause a spike here but you know what did? Burning and destroying half of downtown and rioting for a week on end while screaming and shouting. But instead of addressing that we instead go backwards to restrict the things that DIDN'T cause the spike.
Seriously, berkeley people. berkeley these little power hunngry shiny happy people and lets get this berkeleying world back on it's feet. More and more data showing us this isn't as deadly as thought or even predicted. Lets move on and stop with the shaming and fear mongering.
This will be todays post. Maybe tomorrow I can try again.
In reply to 93EXCivic :
The second stimulus is going to be geared toward people making under $40k for one thing, which is good. I didn't "need" the portion of the stimulus I received.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to 93EXCivic :
It's certainly a case-by-case issue. Is there a particular at-risk group you are asking about?
Not a particular group but I'd think it would include people of the age to be at risk, people with pre-existing conditions that put them at risk and people with newborns.
z31maniac said:
In reply to 93EXCivic :
The second stimulus is going to be geared toward people making under $40k for one thing, which is good. I didn't "need" the portion of the stimulus I received.
Yeah me either. I ended up giving a decent portion of it to charities and putting the rest in savings
bobzilla said:
mtn (Forum Supporter) said:
(In case you're still here)
Wearing masks help the economy, health of the nation, and gets us back to "normal" sooner. Why is the mandate/law of a mask unjust or something to get up in arms about?
I understand the "You're welcome to stay home" line upsets you. It upsets me too, from the other side. It applies to both arguments, which means, in my opinion, that it isn't worth typing/saying.
The timing on this was a little.... off. I'm sitting at my desk, surrounded by splash shields with the nearest person 15-20' BEHIND and to the left of me, blocked by 3 splah shields. I have my face covering up to the bottom of my nose so it doesn't fog my glasses so I can see the screens I'm working from and some mask nazi decides to make a big deal about me not having it over my nose.... After I have been in the same building with the same people for months with none of these things in place. After the same company sent many of us on conferences that were with international clients etc at the beginning of march and led to my sickness. They didn't give two E36 M3s then. But when the mayor decides to make a new mandate they decide to go mask nazi.
Look, I avoid people in public in general. I've already been there got hte tshirt and chest pains. I've been out in the world doing out in the world things because I have to. To now, on the downswing, enact silly E36 M3 like this makes me angry. To walk a thin line here.... the openings didn't cause a spike here but you know what did? Burning and destroying half of downtown and rioting for a week on end while screaming and shouting. But instead of addressing that we instead go backwards to restrict the things that DIDN'T cause the spike.
Seriously, berkeley people. berkeley these little power hunngry shiny happy people and lets get this berkeleying world back on it's feet. More and more data showing us this isn't as deadly as thought or even predicted. Lets move on and stop with the shaming and fear mongering.
This will be todays post. Maybe tomorrow I can try again.
Bob,
I understand you're upset. I would be too. But can you please not take it out on those of us in this thread? I feel like you've escalated this in your response based on what is happening to you outside of this board. It makes rational conversation difficult.
Call me out if I am interpretting this incorrectly.
In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :
The only thing that makes me upset is the underhanded belittling of any non-conforming ideas that seep in here. The "you can just stay home" crowd, or the "snowflakes melting down" because they disagree with the over-reach from our little local dictators. That's not helpful, and it's not what this place is about.
To answer the issue with masks, I can't hear people. Period. I have severe tenitis and it's difficult at best for me to converse with others with background noise. Put their voice behind a mask and I might as well be deaf because I cant understand a berkeleying thing coming out of peoples mouths. I typically augment lip reading and facial expressions to help me understand the conversation. The mask inhibits all of that. So, I get to spend more time alone in my mind. Thats a place no person should ever be forced to be.
No one should ever be forced to be in bobzilla's mind. 
93EXCivic said:
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to 93EXCivic :
It's certainly a case-by-case issue. Is there a particular at-risk group you are asking about?
Not a particular group but I'd think it would include people of the age to be at risk, people with pre-existing conditions that put them at risk and people with newborns.
locally, 92% of our deaths are coming from 30% of the positive cases. That age range is greater than 60 and pre-existing conditions. If you sequester just the 70-up that is 80% of the fatalities. According to HERE if you sequestered the 70-up age group that would be about 22M people. So instead of restrictions on 330M people we're talking about restrictions on 6% of the population that account for 80% of the fatalities. Masks, special shopping hours for those age groups, even special checkout lanes or tables in restraunts that have extra cleaning/protection. Same things we do for Handicapped people now.
Doing that would allot the other 94% of the population to go back to work, and to a relatively normal life again. This would have a huge impact on the mental health of the nation as a whole. Trust me folks, this E36 M3 is berkeleying people up. IT's extremely hard to keep it together for a NORMAL person, think what its like for those with social issues, depression etc. IT's literally Hell. Not even hyperbole. I'd almost prefer hell to whatever this crap is.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:
No one should ever be forced to be in bobzilla's mind.
AMEN! Can someone get me OUT of here?
bobzilla said:
IT's extremely hard to keep it together for a NORMAL person, think what its like for those with social issues, depression etc. IT's literally Hell. Not even hyperbole. I'd almost prefer hell to whatever this crap is.
Yep. And it's only getting worse. I had my weekly one on one meeting, through Zoom of course, with my manager. Likely won't go back to the office until next year and it might even be as long as "An effective vaccine that everyone in the office has had" before we end up going back.
I'm very happy I have a pretty good job and all that, but not being able to go anywhere or do anything is really taking it's toll.
bobzilla said:
mtn (Forum Supporter) said:
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:
ProDarwin said:
I think the reason they are still mandated in these conditions is that the droplets linger in the air for quite a while in indoor environments, and it is quite common for others to pass through the air you just exhaled shortly after you were there. Plus, without a mask, when you exhale the droplets from your breath get on things that others touch.
The purpose of the masks (and other measures) in many businesses is simply to provide an opportunity to document that they made an effort to protect workers. If they don't, they liability could destroy their business.
I would hope that it also to prevent the spread and improve the potential market of their businesses.
https://www.goldmansachs.com/insights/pages/the-link-between-face-masks-and-gdp.html
if that was the case, we would have been mandated masks MONTHS ago when we were deemed "essential". Because it is only happening now with a mandate from the mayor tells me this is nothing more than CYA move to limit liability. Never mind they already sent many of us out to conferences to pick it up and bring it back in early march.
Why can't the state of the and information change? What we knew MONTHS ago is different than what we know now. Heck, MONTHS ago, nobody had any real data showing the effectiveness of masks, but most figured that the N95 masks were dearly needed by the health profession. Since then, there have been a number of studies on various material and their effectivness to block what goes out (>300nm) as well as what comes in (<300nm). To the point that you can go out to a fabric store and get good and effective materials you can make for yourself.
BTW, you have a fit problem that you should not. Those same studies show 50-80% rediuction in effectiveness if there are leaks- and since you are fogging up your glasses, you have leaks.
Same goes for your conferences- there was some news that it may not have been a good idea to go back in March, and the best information changed within 2 weeks.
As knowledge is found, situations change very quickly. Even now, one can see how effective hars social distancing is to stop the virus in it's tracks. And we had that opporunity, to have a minimal effect on the economy. Maybe we still do, except that more and more people are willing to sacrifice people for the sake of the economy.
In reply to z31maniac :
I'm torn on that... I can and have spent entire weekends without seeing or talking to anyone since I live alone. That said, having outdoor activities (mtn biking) allows me to see my friends from time to time, even if our close-contact is minimal. I was not particularly "happy" prior to all of this for other reasons and in some ways, not having to spend weeks on end away from home (or spending 1.5 hrs per day commuting to the office) has improved my state of mind.
In reply to alfadriver (Forum Supporter) :
and there it is again. The condescencsion that if you aren't willing to hunker down until its gone you're willing to kill people. berkeley it. You can have it. THe world. The site. Whatever. I'm tired of this polarized E36 M3. berkeley it.
Outdoor activities are great for health. Kinda sucks for me, because I took a work schedule specifically to allow me to get out during the week while most people are at work. Now everyone is home from work and going out to parks and trails during the week. You can't control, or plan for everything.
In reply to bobzilla :
I wash my hands every time after reading this thread. ...and I still feel contaminated. Just self-isolate and avoid all contact with it. Your day will be nicer.
