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  • Chris_V

    May 26, 2008 12:41 p.m. Chris_V SuperDork

    I had some huge reply written up for another site, but I hate to type it all here. Oil prices have risen nearly 300% in the last two years.

    Demand worldwide has not been increasing 300% since oil was at $50 a barrel. In fact, demand in the largest market, the US, has dropped over the last year. Even China has reduced its oil imports recently. Demand and production worldwide have been essentially flat for the last 7 years: http://www.jodidata.org/

    In the U.S. alone, stockpiles of oil climbed by 11.9 million barrels in the month preceding the Energy Information Agency's (EIA) May 7 inventory report; they were up by nearly 33 million barrels since Jan. 1. At the same time, MasterCard's (MA) May 7 gasoline report showed that gas demand has fallen by 5.8%, while the government suggested that gasoline consumption might have fallen by slightly over 6%.

    The dollar also has not devalued 300% in the last two years. it has dropped, but not at anywhere near the rate oil has been increasing.

    Here's an interesting outlook from Businessweek magazine: Article here

    "ExxonMobil (XOM) Chief Executive Officer Rex Tillerson was quoted by Marketwatch as saying, "The record run in oil prices is related more to speculation and a weakening dollar than supply and demand in the market." He added, "In terms of fundamentals, fear of supply reliability is overblown."

    As for the speculators, in 2000 approximately $9 billion was invested in oil futures, while today that number has gone up to $250 billion. Now, if any publicly traded company had an additional $241 billion put into its stock in the same period, its stock would rise out of sight too—even if the company was not worth anywhere near that amount of market capitalization. "

    Another interesting article: Businessweek article

    ""Performance-chasing financial inflows to commodities cause prices to rise, thus delivering good performance, and attracting even more inflows," Lehman Brothers (LEH) analyst Edward Morse wrote in a May 16 report, Is It a Bubble?

    "The temporary self-sustaining nature of financial inflows means the bull run in commodities has potentially more to go," he added, saying crude could reach $150 or $200 before a correction. "

  • neon4891

    May 26, 2008 7:02 p.m. neon4891 Reader

    $150-200/barrel for crude:omg:. On the up side, thats not to far off.

  • mtn

    May 26, 2008 11:02 p.m. mtn Dork

    I didn't read most of the above. The below is my opinion.

    Oil will come down again. It will come down when we finally get the oil shale oil, and if we ever get oil from Alaska. But, when it does come down, it will bring prices from 6 dollars a gallon of regular to 4, so we think that its the greatest thing ever.

  • MitchellC

    May 26, 2008 11:52 p.m. MitchellC New Reader

    That'll put it right to where it is now. Yippee.

  • John Brown

    May 27, 2008 9:02 a.m. John Brown UltimaDork

    Chris_V wrote: I had some huge reply written up for another site, but I hate to type it all here. Oil prices have risen nearly 300% in the last two years.

    Demand worldwide has not been increasing 300% since oil was at $50 a barrel. In fact, demand in the largest market, the US, has dropped over the last year. Even China has reduced its oil imports recently. Demand and production worldwide have been essentially flat for the last 7 years: http://www.jodidata.org/

    In the U.S. alone, stockpiles of oil climbed by 11.9 million barrels in the month preceding the Energy Information Agency's (EIA) May 7 inventory report; they were up by nearly 33 million barrels since Jan. 1. At the same time, MasterCard's (MA) May 7 gasoline report showed that gas demand has fallen by 5.8%, while the government suggested that gasoline consumption might have fallen by slightly over 6%.

    The dollar also has not devalued 300% in the last two years. it has dropped, but not at anywhere near the rate oil has been increasing.

    Here's an interesting outlook from Businessweek magazine: Article here

    "ExxonMobil (XOM) Chief Executive Officer Rex Tillerson was quoted by Marketwatch as saying, "The record run in oil prices is related more to speculation and a weakening dollar than supply and demand in the market." He added, "In terms of fundamentals, fear of supply reliability is overblown."

    As for the speculators, in 2000 approximately $9 billion was invested in oil futures, while today that number has gone up to $250 billion. Now, if any publicly traded company had an additional $241 billion put into its stock in the same period, its stock would rise out of sight too—even if the company was not worth anywhere near that amount of market capitalization. "

    Another interesting article: Businessweek article

    ""Performance-chasing financial inflows to commodities cause prices to rise, thus delivering good performance, and attracting even more inflows," Lehman Brothers (LEH) analyst Edward Morse wrote in a May 16 report, Is It a Bubble?

    "The temporary self-sustaining nature of financial inflows means the bull run in commodities has potentially more to go," he added, saying crude could reach $150 or $200 before a correction. "

    Great quotes Chris, the press is greatly responsible for the fear mongering the same way that they drove Britney Spears nuts. Yes we WILL eventually run out of oil and Brit was a little goofy, but the press and Al Gore (or whomever you need to blame) have caused speculators to jump in with both feet and their AMEX.

    I suggested mini geothermal stations on every block large enough to create power for the block to reduce the gas/coal consumption there then add nuclear facilities to power the cities, creating more shale/coal derived diesel fuels for commuter consumption (1) and add switchgrass based biofuels (2) but not in the standard manners for either commuter fuels.

    (1) Create a petroleum-coal-bio hybrid using a mixture of the three products (2) Why is E85 the benchmark? is there a lower octane flex fuel ratio?

  • bastomatic

    May 27, 2008 9:23 a.m. bastomatic Dork

  • Xceler8x

    May 27, 2008 9:23 a.m. Xceler8x New Reader

    Snowdoggie wrote: It's just another part of our 'gambling casino' economy. Traders are actually borrowing money to speculate on oil futures, just like they borrowed money to speculate on houses a few years ago...

    ...I predict that when oil prices finally do crash a few more big investment banks will crash too and the cry will go out for the Federal Government to bail out the banks with borrowed money.

    I'm with you Snowdoggie. I was against the Fed helping JPMorgan Chase bailout Bear Stearns. Investors don't need tax money bailing them out for risks they never should've taken.

    Here is an interesting article I read today. The first 3 paragraphs are below:

    Peeved at Prices? Don't Blame the Dealer Awash in Profit, Exxon Fights for Pennies While Raising the Rent

    Every time Sohaila Rezazadeh rings up a sale at her Exxon station on Chain Bridge Road in Oakton, her cash register sends the information to Exxon Mobil's central computers. If she raises the price of gasoline a couple of pennies, chances are that Exxon will raise the wholesale price she pays by the same amount.

    Through a password-protected Web portal, Exxon notifies Rezazadeh of wholesale price changes daily. That way the oil giant, which is earning about $3.3 billion a month, fine-tunes the pump prices at the franchise Rezazadeh has owned for 12 years.

    Now, however, Rezazadeh says she cannot stay in business. Credit-card fees are eating her profit margins. Exxon, which owns the station land, last week handed Rezazadeh a new lease raising her rent about 30 percent over the next three years. She stuck a copy on the window of her station to show customers who are angry about soaring pump prices. Rezazadeh has told Exxon that she cannot make money with the rent that high. Her territory manager's reply, she said, was simple: When you go, leave us the keys.

    Now, queue the guys who argue passionately about how Exxon should be able to rape us for as long and as much as they want. All while those pro-Exxon guys are paying $4 at the pump with a predicted $7 in the nxt 6 mo's to two years. All while oil companies post the highest recorded profits of any industry in America's history. Makes you wonder who's side they're on.

  • Apexcarver

    May 27, 2008 11:07 a.m. Apexcarver New Reader

    This morning i flipped on the tv as I was getting ready to go out the door. BBC America was still on (from watching top gear last night) and the BBC world news was on.

    Truckers over in england were having a protest where they parked along the highways. Why? FUEL PRICES!

    It isn't just a problem for the US.

    India's govt pays out to keep fuel cheap there and they are loosing loads of money on it.

    The price increase is coming from somewhere (I'm looking at OPEC personally) and its supply and demand. We need gas and they can set the price. When it gets right down to it OPEC has a virtual monopoly on gas and they control the pricing of it. We need it and they want to make us pay dearly for it. If only we could do the equavilent of fileing a no-trust suit...

  • Chris_V

    May 27, 2008 11:19 a.m. Chris_V SuperDork

    Apexcarver wrote:

    The price increase is coming from somewhere (I'm looking at OPEC personally) and its supply and demand. We need gas and they can set the price. When it gets right down to it OPEC has a virtual monopoly on gas and they control the pricing of it. We need it and they want to make us pay dearly for it. If only we could do the equavilent of fileing a no-trust suit...

    Except that supply and demand has remained flat for 7 years. There has not been a 300 % increase in consumer demand over the last two years to account for it. hell, OPEC doesn' t even control the pricing on oil. The commodities market sets the price. And who's running the commodities market right now and has been for the last two years?

    We've been living with doom and gloom on the oil front since the '70s. Oil pricing has risen steadily in lockstep with world demand until just a couple years ago, and then rapidly in the last year. And yet in the last year, China's overall demand increased by only a couple percent, and is now dropping off. The US and UK demand has been dropping off. Looking at the worldwide demand charts, there hasn't been a spike in consumer demand worldwide. Supplies are at all time highs.

    The only "demand" increase has come from investment fund companies and it's been HUGE. But it's only on paper, as they still have to deliver the oil to the refineries, and the refineries will only deliver as much as consumers want.

    The investment bubble will burst, and it will have nothing to do with the upcoming election in the US.

  • JoeyM

    May 27, 2008 11:28 a.m. JoeyM New Reader

    Truckers over in england were having a protest where they parked along the highways. Why? FUEL PRICES!
    I heard on NPR[+] today that the price at the pump in the UK is more than 50% taxes. Right now we are paying $0.183/gallon in federal taxes.

    --

    [+] - I need to go. I think Dr. Hess and Co. are coming with pitchforks to run me out of town because I admitted to listening to NPR.

  • John Brown

    May 27, 2008 12:03 p.m. John Brown UltimaDork

    We listen to NPR, I love Wait wait don't tell me!

  • Xceler8x

    May 27, 2008 12:10 p.m. Xceler8x New Reader

    Apexcarver wrote: The investment bubble will burst, and it will have nothing to do with the upcoming election in the US.

    [hypnotized voice] Yes..nothing to do with the upcoming election...

    ..these are not the droids I'm looking for... [/hypnotized voice]

  • Chris_V

    May 27, 2008 12:37 p.m. Chris_V SuperDork

    Xceler8x wrote:
    Apexcarver wrote: The investment bubble will burst, and it will have nothing to do with the upcoming election in the US.

    [hypnotized voice] Yes..nothing to do with the upcoming election...

    ..these are not the droids I'm looking for... [/hypnotized voice]

    Neither party can regulate the commodities market that is trading OTC. Neither party can regulate the ICE. The investor bubble will be broken by something entirely different. And this is a global stage, not a national one.

  • aircooled

    May 27, 2008 12:47 p.m. aircooled Dork

    I am not sure I get the "cows going to be milked" cartoon. Its not like there are a huge number of choices here (especially for those who cannot access public transit easily). When winter comes along and the east has to buy heating oil, what are their options? Will a lot of "mooing" make a difference, I don't think so.

    As far as making money. I am sure the oil companies are making money, but no where near what the people that are selling the barrels are! And of course the stupid part is they don't set the price! I am sure they find it very amusing.

    It is starting to look like the Countrywide (/ Enron) mentality is in charge of the oil markets...

  • Xceler8x

    May 27, 2008 1:54 p.m. Xceler8x New Reader

    Interesting article on CNN today.

    As gas goes up, driving goes down

    (CNN) -- At a time when gas prices are at an all-time high, Americans have curtailed their driving at a historic rate. art.gas.pump.gi.jpg

    Americans are not driving as much as they did a year ago as gas prices skyrocket.

    The Department of Transportation said figures from March show the steepest decrease in driving ever recorded.

    Compared with March a year earlier, Americans drove an estimated 4.3 percent less -- that's 11 billion fewer miles, the DOT's Federal Highway Administration said Monday, calling it "the sharpest yearly drop for any month in FHWA history." Records have been kept since 1942.

  • Snowdoggie

    May 27, 2008 2:59 p.m. Snowdoggie New Reader

    Chris_V wrote:
    Apexcarver wrote:

    The price increase is coming from somewhere (I'm looking at OPEC personally) and its supply and demand. We need gas and they can set the price. When it gets right down to it OPEC has a virtual monopoly on gas and they control the pricing of it. We need it and they want to make us pay dearly for it. If only we could do the equavilent of fileing a no-trust suit...

    Except that supply and demand has remained flat for 7 years. There has not been a 300 % increase in consumer demand over the last two years to account for it. hell, OPEC doesn' t even control the pricing on oil. The commodities market sets the price. And who's running the commodities market right now and has been for the last two years?

    The President of Exxon Mobil is saying that prices are cyclical and will eventually go back down again. Every time Bush goes to talk to Saudi Arabia about increasing production they keep telling him that it isn't a supply and demand problem. OPEC isn't going to increase supply in response to a bubble. They remember very well what happened the last time they did that. Oil went below $20 a barrel. They aren't going to fall for that again.

    Oil will go back down if the demand isn't there. The only questions are when, and how much damage will be done to the Airlines, the Auto Industry and the Trucking Industry, not to mention the rest of the economy before prices go back down.

    The SOBs who are pushing this bubble don't give a damn about that as long as they keep making money. They are just like the guys who sold houses to people who couldn't afford them and then peddled the mortgage securities to people from other countries who didn't know the risk, not to mention the Enron traders who gamed the price of electricity and left the State of California holding a big debt that they are still suffering from.

    It is the same people and they just found yet another game.

    The only solution to this is more regulation on trading on an international basis. The current administration can take part of the blame for this mess too. They were the ones who pushed deregulation of everything in the name of free markets.

  • John Brown

    May 27, 2008 3:03 p.m. John Brown UltimaDork

    The speculators need to start speculating on things that NEED higher prices... like... umm... I got nothing.

  • Jensenman

    May 27, 2008 3:15 p.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

    Snowdoggie wrote:

    They were the ones who pushed deregulation of everything in the name of free markets.

    Um, Jimmy Carter pushed for and got the beginnings of the deregulation of the oil industry and as was typical of him it was a half assed effort. Reagan finished what Carter started. Carter also pushed the deregulation of the airlines.

  • Tim Baxter

    May 27, 2008 3:18 p.m. Tim Baxter Online Editor

    Jensenman wrote:
    Snowdoggie wrote:

    They were the ones who pushed deregulation of everything in the name of free markets.

    Um, Jimmy Carter pushed for and got the beginnings of the deregulation of the oil industry and as was typical of him it was a half assed effort. Reagan finished what Carter started. Carter also pushed the deregulation of the airlines.

    Yeah... the Republicans fully assed what Carter could only half ass. :nice:

  • Jensenman

    May 27, 2008 3:29 p.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

    Tim Baxter wrote:
    Jensenman wrote:
    Snowdoggie wrote:

    They were the ones who pushed deregulation of everything in the name of free markets.

    Um, Jimmy Carter pushed for and got the beginnings of the deregulation of the oil industry and as was typical of him it was a half assed effort. Reagan finished what Carter started. Carter also pushed the deregulation of the airlines.

    Yeah... the Republicans fully assed what Carter could only half ass. :nice:

    Yep. :grin: Anyway, the point I'm making is the current oil pricing has roots going way back when. People keep screeching for the gov't to step in and take over; that's never a good thing. The gov't control of oil and gas pricing and distribution that Carter and Reagan both saw problems with would absolutely strangle supplies if reinstated now. Prices might be pushed down artificially but exploration etc would virtually cease.

  • Chris_V

    May 27, 2008 3:42 p.m. Chris_V SuperDork

    It may have roots in way back when , but the recent ramp up in oil prices are not the result of supply and damand markers. Oil has gone up slightly over the years and followed more or less consistent cost/demand/supply values. But in the last two years, we've seen a 300% ramp up in prices, even though all data shows demand staying pretty much flat, even for emerging nations like China and India, production has been kept flat to stay with demand, supplies on hand have not gone down, the dollar has not fallen 300%, etc. the only thing tht's changed is large investment houses like Goldman Sachs stepping in with absolutely ludicrous amounts of money rapidly invested.

    We HAVE the regulations in place to stop profiteering and market manipulation that Enron so blatantly showed us was possible. So what did the Investment companies do? They went outside of US regulatory reach. And they'll stay there as long as they can.

  • May 27, 2008 4:27 p.m. twentyover New Reader

    Tim Baxter wrote:
    Jensenman wrote:
    Snowdoggie wrote:

    They were the ones who pushed deregulation of everything in the name of free markets.

    Um, Jimmy Carter pushed for and got the beginnings of the deregulation of the oil industry and as was typical of him it was a half assed effort. Reagan finished what Carter started. Carter also pushed the deregulation of the airlines.

    Yeah... the Republicans fully assed what Carter could only half ass. :nice:

    Made me laugh

  • Snowdoggie

    May 27, 2008 4:43 p.m. Snowdoggie New Reader

    twentyover wrote:
    Tim Baxter wrote:
    Jensenman wrote:
    Snowdoggie wrote:

    They were the ones who pushed deregulation of everything in the name of free markets.

    Um, Jimmy Carter pushed for and got the beginnings of the deregulation of the oil industry and as was typical of him it was a half assed effort. Reagan finished what Carter started. Carter also pushed the deregulation of the airlines.

    Yeah... the Republicans fully assed what Carter could only half ass. :nice:

    Made me laugh

    Shows you what asses politicians can be. :grin:

  • Snowdoggie

    May 27, 2008 4:48 p.m. Snowdoggie New Reader

    Jensenman wrote:
    Tim Baxter wrote:
    Jensenman wrote:
    Snowdoggie wrote:

    They were the ones who pushed deregulation of everything in the name of free markets.

    Um, Jimmy Carter pushed for and got the beginnings of the deregulation of the oil industry and as was typical of him it was a half assed effort. Reagan finished what Carter started. Carter also pushed the deregulation of the airlines.

    Yeah... the Republicans fully assed what Carter could only half ass. :nice:

    Yep. :grin: Anyway, the point I'm making is the current oil pricing has roots going way back when. People keep screeching for the gov't to step in and take over; that's never a good thing. The gov't control of oil and gas pricing and distribution that Carter and Reagan both saw problems with would absolutely strangle supplies if reinstated now. Prices might be pushed down artificially but exploration etc would virtually cease.

    The oil companies seem to be more interested in buying their stock back right now than in spending it on more exploration. More proof that this is more of a speculation bubble than an actual shortage of supply. I would be in favor of tax breaks for oil companies for profits re-invested in exploration. It would increase supply and create more jobs for everybody from geologists to oil rig workers.

  • aircooled

    May 27, 2008 6:21 p.m. aircooled Dork

    Perhaps a sign that reality is peaking through?:

    Oil Drops Below $129...

    "Oil prices dropped below $129 a barrel Tuesday, falling sharply on a growing sense that soaring gas and oil prices have cut demand for fuel during the normally busy summer driving season" .......... "Tuesday's oil price decline was notable in that it came in the face of news of supply problems in Mexico and Nigeria that could have driven oil prices higher."

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