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  • aircooled

    June 3, 2009 10:35 a.m. aircooled SuperDork

    http://www.greenbiz.com/blog/2009/06/01/how-will-new-gm-affect-plans-volt

    The Volt is slated to be assembled at the Detroit-Hamtramck assembly facility in Detroit, with a first production run of about 10,000 vehicles, although the company would not name an exact figure. In addition, the cars will retail at approximately $40,000, as a ballpark estimate. Different than traditional hybrid or plug-in hybrid vehicles, the Volt can go 40 miles on a single charge on the electric engine and then a smaller, gasoline-powered combustion engine generates electricity for the motor, acting as a range extender.

    They do mentions a potential $7500 tax break (it's government money, so that makes it free...)

    It's interesting that the $40,000 price is similar to what the EV-1 is suspected to have cost if put in full production. It was pretty clear that GM did not think a $40,000 grand 2-seat electric car would generate any profit. Will a $40,000 4-seat hybrid? When you can buy a Prius for under $25,000!?

  • mad_machine

    June 3, 2009 10:44 a.m. mad_machine UltraDork

    lot cheaper than the tesla

  • Adrian_Thompson

    June 3, 2009 10:44 a.m. Adrian_Thompson Reader

    I'll bet they can easily sell 10K units a year, there's a pent up demand. Lot's of people want a true plug either plug in hybrid or plain plug in. That's something that the Prius doesn't offer. The only other plug in right now is the Tesla and that's out of most peoples price range and practicality range. Also being a plug in hybrid means that you can be effectively 100% plug in for your daily commute, but rely on the hybrid part for longer trips. Many people will rarely put gas in one.

  • rebelgtp

    June 3, 2009 10:57 a.m. rebelgtp Dork

    Also the Prius looks like crap and the Volt actually looks decent. Not great mind you but miles better than the Prius.

  • aircooled

    June 3, 2009 11:13 a.m. aircooled SuperDork

    I guess it might come down to an old GM problem. If people are paying 40 grand for a car, I suspect they might be a bit disappointed in a "GM" interior / accessories.

    I would certainly consider buying an electric car, and I have never bought a new car, and I am likely to never buy one, but I might buy a new electric. There is no way I would put down $40,000 though. I think that says something.

    I would be more partial to something like an electric Smart, of course something like an electric Midget would be of even more interest.

  • Chris_V

    June 3, 2009 11:20 a.m. Chris_V SuperDork

    The Volt is still a lot of new tech, and new tech always costs more to start with. if people weren't early adopters and paid teh higher prices, my $800 dual-quad-core Dell XPS computer would cost a lot more than my $5000 486DX2-66 business machine did back in 1998.

    Somebody's got to pay for the tech development. Giving it away in low priced cars to start with would be as bad for the business bottom line as any other mismanagement that has happened to GM.

  • CivicSiRacer

    June 3, 2009 11:28 a.m. CivicSiRacer Reader

    For $40,000 no way. It would take so long to recup the money saved in gas.

    Now if it was $20,000 that would be awesome. $7500 tax rebate then I wouldn't even think twice.

  • John Brown

    June 3, 2009 11:29 a.m. John Brown MegaDork

    $40,000 for a Cruze?

    Obamaco wants there money back quick!

  • Chris_V

    June 3, 2009 11:33 a.m. Chris_V SuperDork

    John Brown wrote:

    $40,000 for a Cruze?

    Obamaco wants there money back quick!

    It was going to be $40k long before Obama bought the company.

  • Adrian_Thompson

    June 3, 2009 11:34 a.m. Adrian_Thompson Reader

    CivicSiRacer wrote:

    For $40,000 no way. It would take so long to recup the money saved in gas.

    Now if it was $20,000 that would be awesome. $7500 tax rebate then I wouldn't even think twice.

    If people used that logic the Prius would never have been the success it was in the pre $4/gal gas days.

    There are millions of people who like the idea of high gas mileage / electric / hybrid /plug in hybrid etc vehicles for the 'perceived' good they're doing for the environment.

    I say not only will they sell them, most will head out the door with a $5,000 'dealer adjustment' attached.

  • June 3, 2009 11:56 a.m. petegossett Dork

    Keep in mind that with a plug-in charging system there's also the potential that you could charge it off someone else's plug. IE: your employer.

    How many "free" recharges would it take to offset the price relatve to a normal hybrid?

  • aircooled

    June 3, 2009 12:00 p.m. aircooled SuperDork

    Adrian_Thompson wrote: There are millions of people who like the idea of high gas mileage / electric / hybrid /plug in hybrid etc vehicles for the 'perceived' good they're doing for the environment....

    I am guessing the number that are willing to shell out 40 grand will be wildly less then those that will shell out 25!

    Besides, Honda specifically designed their new Hybrid Civic to "look" like a hybrid (that is ugly) for the buyers. The Volt (so far) looks like a "normal" car. How will this inflate the ego of the drivers?! Perhaps they can stick huge ELECTRIC - HYBRID stickers on the side, that ought to do it.

    Chris_V wrote: It was going to be $40k long before Obama bought the company.

    Don't let the facts get in the way of a perfectly good story.

  • Grtechguy

    June 3, 2009 12:06 p.m. Grtechguy UltraDork

    IMO $40k is ridiculous. especially in this recession.

    make it the same or less the the Prius/whateverthehondais and they'll sell all day long

    I make $40K a year, my wife is pretty close to that as well. but with a mortgage/daycare/3kids there is no way I can afford a $400-600 a month payment. I also refuse to lease.

  • June 3, 2009 12:22 p.m. skruffy Dork

    I'll buy a year old one for $25k lol GM depreciation. And no, I wouldn't pay $40k for ANY new car. But since I only buy cars used I'm not really in the target market.

    Also, the EV1 would've been a very expensive car at $40k in the early 90's. Now you can get a malibu into the high 30s if you try hard enough.

  • foxtrapper

    June 3, 2009 12:23 p.m. foxtrapper SuperDork

    The Volt is a joke.

    40 mile range on batteries, then it kicks in the gas motor that can barely get it up to highway speeds.

  • poopshovel

    June 3, 2009 12:31 p.m. poopshovel SuperDork

    Put a berkeleying $150,000 price tag on it. Who the berkeley cares? Obviously, it's not like they need to actually build and sell cars to stay in business. Seriously.

  • slefain

    June 3, 2009 12:34 p.m. slefain Dork

    For $40k I'll buy an Eco-Boosted Flex or a Taurus SHO. Or I'll just not buy anything and pocket the savings of driving a cheap, paid for used car for several more years. Sure it only gets 23mpg but that's a whole lot cheaper than having a car payment in a lousy economy.

  • alfadriver

    June 3, 2009 12:53 p.m. alfadriver HalfDork

    slefain wrote:

    For $40k I'll buy an Eco-Boosted Flex or a Taurus SHO. Or I'll just not buy anything and pocket the savings of driving a cheap, paid for used car for several more years. Sure it only gets 23mpg but that's a whole lot cheaper than having a car payment in a lousy economy.

    I have been getting upwards of 27 driving home and back. But it does require a gentle foot for every day driving.

    As for the Volt, yes, people will buy it, not in huge droves, but probably at a high enough rate that will strain the battery maker.

    GM HAS to price the thing to make money. They can't continue to discount their products and just break even.

    E-

  • aircooled

    June 3, 2009 1:08 p.m. aircooled SuperDork

    skruffy wrote: Also, the EV1 would've been a very expensive car at $40k in the early 90's. Now you can get a malibu into the high 30s if you try hard enough.

    Make that late 90's, 96-99.

  • Tom_Spangler

    June 3, 2009 1:22 p.m. Tom_Spangler New Reader

    aircooled wrote:

    skruffy wrote: Also, the EV1 would've been a very expensive car at $40k in the early 90's. Now you can get a malibu into the high 30s if you try hard enough.

    Make that late 90's, 96-99.

    Either way, gas was a whole lot cheaper in those days than it is now, or has been in recent memory.

    Also, the Volt never runs on it's gas motor, the gas motor exists only to charge the batteries if needed. It's an electric vehicle with a supplemental charging system to extend the range. Everything I've read on it says that it drives completely like a normal car, which is exactly what it needs to do. I predict it'll sell well enough, but not be a huge hit.

  • Kramer

    June 3, 2009 1:34 p.m. Kramer Reader

    foxtrapper wrote:

    The Volt is a joke.

    40 mile range on batteries, then it kicks in the gas motor that can barely get it up to highway speeds.

    I don't think you understand how the Volt works. The gas motor will never power the wheels, no matter how low the battery charge gets. Electric motors always power the car, and they're not de-powered as the battery charge lessens.

  • John Brown

    June 3, 2009 1:39 p.m. John Brown MegaDork

    Kramer wrote:

    foxtrapper wrote:

    The Volt is a joke.

    40 mile range on batteries, then it kicks in the gas motor that can barely get it up to highway speeds.

    I don't think you understand how the Volt works. The gas motor will never power the wheels, no matter how low the battery charge gets. Electric motors always power the car, and they're not de-powered as the battery charge lessens.

    I don't think you understand how my pocketbook works. $40,000 for a Cobalt is more than my wife will allow me to embezzle from the Brownco books.

  • Tom_Spangler

    June 3, 2009 2:32 p.m. Tom_Spangler New Reader

    John Brown wrote:

    I don't think you understand how my pocketbook works. $40,000 for a Cobalt is more than my wife will allow me to embezzle from the Brownco books.

    Well, this is GRM, after all. How many of us are likely to drop $40k on any new car in the near future? I know I'm not. To me a $40k car might as well cost $100k, both are equally unattainable.

  • RX Reven'

    June 3, 2009 2:36 p.m. RX Reven' Reader

    CNNMoney - December 20, 2007:

    The CRX HF got an Environmental Protection Agency-estimated 57 mpg gallon in highway driving. Today, the most fuel-efficient non-hybrid Civic you can buy gets an EPA-estimated 34 mpg on the highway. Even today's Honda Civic Hybrid can't match it, achieving EPA-estimated highway mileage of just 45 mpg. The Toyota Prius, today's fuel mileage champ, gets 46 mpg on the highway.

    Why then, not now? One answer for the mileage drop is that the rating system has changed. Beginning with the 2008 model year, the EPA began using a more rigorous fuel economy test that means lower numbers for most cars. But that's only a small part of the answer.

    If the old CRX HF were tested using today's rules, its highway fuel economy would drop to 51 mpg, according to the EPA's calculations. That's still much better than any mass-market car sold today, including hybrid cars.

    Link to Article

    My stuff...

    We need to keep in mind that there’s a huge difference between absolute and relative values here. In other words, once you’re getting 51 mpg, the benefit to your fuel expenses and the environment will be negligible even if you double your mileage.

    For example, if you drive 15,000 miles per year, and you replace your 51 mpg car with a 102 mpg car, you’ll only save 147 gallons per year which at $3.00 per gallon would only be $441 per year…that’s only about 1 ½ monthly car payments.

    In terms of the environment, the 1987 CRX HF weighed 1,713 Lbs and there’s a rule of thumb which stipulates that a factor of four equivalent to the vehicle’s weight in gasoline is required to initially produce it. So, (1,713 X 4) / 6 = 1,142…1,142 / 147 = 7.8 year recovery period just break even with what was consumed to make the vehicle.

    Conclusion: Hybrids, plug-ins, etc are totally ghey!!!

    If the government can’t resist the temptation to regulate us to death, why not just set CAPA standards for BSFC (pounds of fuel burnt per hour per horse power)??? Right now, our best gasoline engines come in at around 0.42. OK, just tell the manufactures that they’ve got three years to have every engine in their fleet at or below 0.35.

    Consumer fuel costs, dependence of foreign oil, & GHG emissions would all be greatly reduced quickly and without compromise.

    Why is this even an issue???

  • John Brown

    June 3, 2009 2:54 p.m. John Brown MegaDork

    While You and I are not likely to buy a $40,000 car, lets take a look at the demographics again. A majority of the GRM readership IS financially able to purchase cars in the $35-60K range. The car is a viable product but the engineering is not being amortized over a million car run, they are treating it like a SSR.

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