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Argo1
Argo1 Dork
1/10/14 12:53 a.m.

I tested the vintage LeMans cars at Spa. The prototype cars were all set to 600pp and gearing matched to 200mph. They all ran times between 2:16 - 2:17. Very close. The cars were the Jag XJ13, Ford Mk IV, Ford GT40, Chaparral 2D, Ferrari P4.

I also tested the vintage LeMans GT cars, also at Spa. The GT cars all ran times between 2:30-2:31. They were all set to 522pp and gearing matched to 180mph. Again, close results. The GT cars were the Stingray Race Concept, E Type, Cobra Daytona Coupe, Shelby GT350R, Ferrari 250 GTO.

At some point this would make a fun team series with five teams:

Team Ferrari: Ferrari 330 P4/ Ferrari 250 GTO

Team Ford 5.7l: Ford GT40/ Shelby GT350R

Team Ford 7.2l: Ford GT Mk IV/ Cobra Daytona Coupe

Team Jaguar: Jaguar XJ13/ Jaguar E Type

Team Chevrolet: Chaparral 2D/ Stingray Race Concept

We could allow "independents" and alternate/ substitute team drivers. Maybe a four race series of one hour races with fuel and tire wear set to fast. Spa, La Sarthe, Nurburgring, Silverstone. Some of these cars cost $20M so we would need to wait until everyone had made some money (or they could run one of the cheaper cars). Rule: Spool and Derve cannot be on the same team.

dean1484
dean1484 PowerDork
1/10/14 7:15 a.m.

Can we do all our testing at Grand valley East? That way we can compare lap times and get a good idea how the different series stack up. I like this track for testing as it is relatively short and yet has a good mix of corners as well as a decent strait.

Testing of the Euro Trash cars started last nigh. All cars are per Airs rules at the top of the thread. All cars are 550 PP or less new and tuned to a max of 550 with no more 90 percent HP limiter. All cars are tested on sport soft.

I tested two BMW's (M3 CSL and M5)a Jag (XK v12 something) an old ferrie (250 gto???) and the RUF RGT. All except the RGT has full mods. The RGT has all mods except I used the stock suspension as for me it was actually faster. The Ferrari was only able to bring the PP up to 532 of so.

AND at the moment the RGT is at the top of the leader board with a 1.04. BMW's are in the 1.05-1.06 range. The Jag is 1.06 (I think) and the Ferrie was a 1.09

It is very interesting that the RGT is able to lap the track at about the same speed as the GTR in GT5.

I tested the M5 with low HP and low weight and High HP and high weight and found them to be about equal

This is all preliminary. I only spent about 3 hours on this last night as you have to tune each car and then test. Then tweak it as needed and test again. I could just not drive the Ferrari (250)it has way to much power for the weight. Snap over steer on corner exit. The M3 & M5 were the easiest to drive fast. The jag was fun and fast and I bet with some more tuning it would be with the BMW's. I am generating a "list" similar to the one I posted in the GT5 thread and will post a more comprehensive list with my comments on handling and tuning notes.

aircooled
aircooled UltimaDork
1/10/14 10:24 a.m.
Argo1 wrote: I tested the vintage LeMans cars at Spa....

This series does sound VERY interesting. There would be some great pics. As noted, the price of some of the cars is a clear issue. We will want to provide some good advanced notice on this one to allow some to build up the CR. Of course, there also the option to have the "big money people" go with the prototypes and the "commoners" go with the other cars (just like in real life!)

aircooled
aircooled UltimaDork
1/10/14 10:36 a.m.
dean1484 wrote: ...at the moment the RGT is at the top of the leader board..

You are not exactly doing a lot here to keep out of a RUF!

One aspect of the RUF you should consider is that you just ran a competitive race in one, so you likely have a bit more practice in that car.

In looking over the available cars, I am suspecting a lot of Ferrari's will be involved.

failboat
failboat SuperDork
1/10/14 11:03 a.m.

I tried the 88 Countach that I already had in my garage, threw some parts at it and a baseline tune just to see if it felt any good. What an understeering pig (225/335 tire stagger probably does NOT help)

Tried a 02 Lotus Esprit V8. Turns in well, but oversteery. I should be able to tune that out so its more balanced. I think it has potential. Seems fast but I have nothing to compare to other than the lambo.

I was only testing for feel with controller, Have yet to try and run laps on the wheel to really dial them in.

I built a bunch of other cars for testing. I have at least 5 or 6 muscle cars, a couple for each set of rules, an 89 miata, Rocket car. Still havent bought or tried the shifter kart yet.

aircooled
aircooled UltimaDork
1/10/14 11:59 a.m.

For the Countach, try putting custom rims on it. It should put slim wheels on the back.

My experience with the Countach though is that it was very capable of power oversteer. That was a general issue in GT5, which should be fixed in GT6. The only thing that did not make any of the super cars understeering pigs (I am looking at you McLaren) was the power oversteer. Of course, in GT5, when you put stickier tires on, the oversteer vanished and the "pig" was there to stay.

This Should be better in GT6. I have noticed the Muscle cars seem to keep some of the necessary power oversteer even with stickier tires.

Spoolpigeon
Spoolpigeon SuperDork
1/10/14 12:09 p.m.

I finally conquered the shifter kart races. They were honestly giving me fits. Turns out that my 200° steering mode on the wheel made them WAAAAAAAAY too touchy. Switched it back to 900° and it's much better. Still disasterous if you hit a bump or a curb, but much easier than before.

dean1484
dean1484 PowerDork
1/10/14 12:13 p.m.

@Air

Ya re the RUF. I like the car better in GT5 but it is not bad in GT6. the difference with the RUF and the BMW is that the RUF you feel out of control for the whole lap where as the BMW things are a lot calmer

dean1484
dean1484 PowerDork
1/10/14 12:21 p.m.

With the Euro series if we go with it we should do the same as we did in the GT300 series with respect t duplicate cars. If two people show up in the same car the person with the better finish in the first race gets to keep the car.

As for the points I agree with the bonus points issue and sandbagging to 3rd instead of going for the win.

I also think we should change the way the HC is delt with. and not penalize 2nd the same as first when you have a +1 HC. In other words if you have a +1 you get -1 for starting the race bringing you back to 0 and then if you finish 2nd you would then get the +1 for that bringing you back to +1.

I don't remember all the details but if that could be fixed it would be nice.

@ Failboat. Run some laps at GVE to compare to my times that is the track Air suggested we test at.

aircooled
aircooled UltimaDork
1/10/14 12:37 p.m.
dean1484 wrote: With the Euro series if we go with it we should do the same as we did in the GT300 series with respect t duplicate cars....

I like it. I forgot about that rule.

As for the points I agree with the bonus points issue and sandbagging to 3rd instead of going for the win.

I think we shall call it... the Derve Rule... and yes Derve, we all knew what you were doing...

I am thinking we should still keep the Shunting Award at 2 points though. The whole point of that is to make up for points lost because of the shunt and 2 points will generally make up for 2 places.

I also think we should change the way the HC is delt with...

I think the way Argo was talking about going about it was that 1st and 2nd have different HC's and you only keep it for the next race regardless. The one issue with that though is if you only have 1 step of HC (e.g. tires) 1st and second have to get the same HC (previously 1st would get it for at least 2 races). Not a tragedy though, just makes winning more valuable.

DaveEstey
DaveEstey UltraDork
1/10/14 2:35 p.m.
aircooled wrote: I think we shall call it... the Derve Rule... and yes Derve, we all knew what you were doing...

Worth it. I got my own rule!

Spoolpigeon
Spoolpigeon SuperDork
1/10/14 3:07 p.m.

In reply to DaveEstey:

It's a good feeling, ain't it?

Argo1
Argo1 Dork
1/10/14 3:33 p.m.

Now we're going to have to deal with Derve taking a dive like the NBA guys in order to get the shunt points...

kazoospec
kazoospec Dork
1/10/14 3:50 p.m.

In reply to Argo1: Wow, just had a Bill Laimbeer flashback. Most teams dealt with him with the "If I'm gonna get the foul call, I'm gonna get my money's worth" theory. Since I don't have time to run the whole series, I can show up occasionally to punt any "flagrant floppers" who become apparent.

DaveEstey
DaveEstey UltraDork
1/10/14 4:19 p.m.
Argo1 wrote: Now we're going to have to deal with Derve taking a dive like the NBA guys in order to get the shunt points...

I don't think I could out-shunt Avettey

aircooled
aircooled UltimaDork
1/10/14 5:16 p.m.

I can see it now: Derve is looking for a few bonus points, someone gets withing 5 feet of him and BAM!! he's in the wall!!!

Argo1
Argo1 Dork
1/11/14 12:14 a.m.

I tested all the muscle cars at GVE. 500pp and adjustable trans, no other mods. There is a wide variation. Here are the results:

The 1:12s:

Shelby GT350 (not R)

Charger 440

Camaro Z28

Camaro SS

Tempest GTO

The 1:13s:

AAR Cuda

Super Bee

Superbird

Nova SS

El Camino

Cougar

The turds:

Buick GNX

Cuda 440

Trans Am

Mustang Mach 1

Challenger R/T

Chevelle 454

Some have more "character" than others. These cars are all seriously in need of an LSD diff. Even though I lived through the 60's, I am not a fan of overpowered cars on skinny hard tires.

I believe that these cars with full mods, 500pp, and Sport Soft tires could be adjusted closer in performance.

Slalom
Slalom New Reader
1/11/14 1:03 a.m.

If you guys ever want to do some races with the lcc rocket, there is a group on gt planet that does a race on Sundays. During the week hasn't worked for me so well lately, so I missed out last couple gt5 races. I should be free this wed though. Here is the link for the lcc rocket races (which is a great car btw) http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/lcc-rocket-spot-race-series-stock-january-12th-10pm-gmt.292181/

failboat
failboat SuperDork
1/11/14 12:18 p.m.
dean1484 wrote: Can we do all our testing at Grand valley East? That way we can compare lap times and get a good idea how the different series stack up. I like this track for testing as it is relatively short and yet has a good mix of corners as well as a decent strait. Testing of the Euro Trash cars started last nigh. All cars are per Airs rules at the top of the thread. All cars are 550 PP or less new and tuned to a max of 550 with no more 90 percent HP limiter. All cars are tested on sport soft. I tested two BMW's (M3 CSL and M5)a Jag (XK v12 something) an old ferrie (250 gto???) and the RUF RGT. All except the RGT has full mods. The RGT has all mods except I used the stock suspension as for me it was actually faster. The Ferrari was only able to bring the PP up to 532 of so. AND at the moment the RGT is at the top of the leader board with a 1.04. BMW's are in the 1.05-1.06 range. The Jag is 1.06 (I think) and the Ferrie was a 1.09 It is very interesting that the RGT is able to lap the track at about the same speed as the GTR in GT5. I tested the M5 with low HP and low weight and High HP and high weight and found them to be about equal This is all preliminary. I only spent about 3 hours on this last night as you have to tune each car and then test. Then tweak it as needed and test again. I could just not drive the Ferrari (250)it has way to much power for the weight. Snap over steer on corner exit. The M3 & M5 were the easiest to drive fast. The jag was fun and fast and I bet with some more tuning it would be with the BMW's. I am generating a "list" similar to the one I posted in the GT5 thread and will post a more comprehensive list with my comments on handling and tuning notes.

Did a little more tuning to the Esprit, current best lap at GVE is a 1:05.249. Seems like it is right in the ballpark.

just some stats-1140kg, 498hp, 426 lbft, full weight reduction, fully upgraded with everything drivetrain wise, although still has stock transmission. Would benefit from race trans to be better geared for the corners, will be installing

Car has no adjustable front downforce available, rear only can be adjusted up to "20" This car would benefit big time from more downforce I think, but it looks like I will have to get it dialed in with suspension and differential tuning instead. Typical MR handling I would say, still needs more tuning to get it to calm down. it is pretty twitchy right now when the front end grips, yet plows like mad if you enter a corner too hot. Side note: Sounds fcking awesome!

Advan046
Advan046 Reader
1/11/14 2:08 p.m.
Spoolpigeon wrote: I finally conquered the shifter kart races. They were honestly giving me fits. Turns out that my 200° steering mode on the wheel made them WAAAAAAAAY too touchy. Switched it back to 900° and it's much better. Still disasterous if you hit a bump or a curb, but much easier than before.

You know it may have just been a lack of sleep. But I was certain that I noticed that the last half turn of my G27 wheel to lock either way made no difference to the graphical position of the kart front wheels. They seemed to reach end of travel in the game before my controller.

Argo1
Argo1 Dork
1/11/14 8:59 p.m.

Tested the track day cars at GVE. The GSXR/4 and the X-Bow are similar in times but no fun to drive. The Rocket and the Fireblade are lots of fun but they are not similar in speed. They both have to have adjustable transmissions to be used. The Rocket is by far the fastest. The Fireblade is by far the slowest.

All the track cars seem to be the most fun on SH tires. I would suggest a Spec Rocket series with only transmission change allowed. I also tried weight as a handicap to see what effect it would have. The Rocket only weighs 369kg so when you add a 200kg penalty it kills it. 6 second slower laps! We might want to consider 50/100kg as handicap.

aircooled
aircooled UltimaDork
1/11/14 9:20 p.m.
Argo1 wrote: ...Some have more "character" than others. These cars are all seriously in need of an LSD diff. Even though I lived through the 60's, I am not a fan of overpowered cars on skinny hard tires. I believe that these cars with full mods, 500pp, and Sport Soft tires could be adjusted closer in performance.

That is sort of my observation also. The course is a bit tight for these cars in stock form. They are a bit more reasonable on a larger course. They also make a crazy amount of tire noise, a full field would be a crazy cacophony of tire screeching.

I need to do some more testing on the full mod versions. It looks like we will probably end up going that way. That might make it a bit more difficult to HC though. Adding weight won't work. Maybe tires or simple PP.

aircooled
aircooled UltimaDork
1/11/14 9:28 p.m.
Argo1 wrote: All the track cars seem to be the most fun on SH tires. I would suggest a Spec Rocket series with only transmission change allowed. I also tried weight as a handicap to see what effect it would have. The Rocket only weighs 369kg so when you add a 200kg penalty it kills it. 6 second slower laps! We might want to consider 50/100kg as handicap.

I was suspicious that would be the conclusion. As suggested we might want to try a Next Race Only HC system to see how that works. It will tend to be less of a HC to the good drivers though.

Argo1
Argo1 Dork
1/12/14 12:17 a.m.

We might want to try the same handicap for first and second but the first place handicap lasts for two races. In the case of Rocket cars, maybe 50kg/ 50kg.

I'm glad that I'm not the only one driven nuts by all the tire noise with SH tires!

aircooled
aircooled UltimaDork
1/12/14 1:02 p.m.

That would be the same as we did last time. Another consideration:

What about the possibility of making 3rd place a zero or no change position, then change the points so that 1 and 2 are a 4 point spread (currently 2), 3rd is a 2 point spread and 1 for the rest (e.g. 24, 20, 16, 14, 13, 12...). This makes 3rd less of a Derve spot, but also rewards a bit more.

So, if you got first, you go to -2. The next race you would need to finish 4 or worse to loose your HC. Finishing 3rd you will keep you HC, but get a bit of points bonus. It's a bit more of a gradual HC progression, but also mean if only 5 show up only 2 will lose HC.

This would make 3rd less attractive to someone with a HC, but more attractive to someone without. Not sure this would help with Derving though. Might make it worse since a typical Derver tries not to carry a HC.

It's a bit confusing. Perhaps if we had a Derving expert around to comment...

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