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  • Appleseed

    Jan. 27, 2012 1:07 a.m. Appleseed SuperDork

    Well I've come to the conclusion that the dampers on the Murdercycle (CM200t Twinstar)are shot. With the winter down time, its now time to rebuilt/upgrade. I plan on using some lightly used Rebel shocks out back. Its the front end that'll give me pain.

    Lets assume that the forks of a Rebel are the same as the Twinstar.

    I most definitely need new fork seals and oil. While I'm in there, should I replace the 30 year old springs? Can I do that myself? And sites that walk you through it, or better yet, a YouTube vid that does?

    Any favorite bike recycler sites?

  • Grtechguy

    Jan. 27, 2012 7:07 a.m. Grtechguy SuperDork

    see if you can retrofit some USD forks on it for an update look.

  • 44Dwarf

    Jan. 27, 2012 7:09 a.m. 44Dwarf Dork

    If the seals are not leaking leave it be just do an oil change. There are spring company's for bikes forks such as progressive spring. Have you set the sag? Get the bike on flat ground sit on it use tape measure to go ground to referanace point if by your self one hand on bars the other crossed over the hold tape to bars. Looks on web see what others like for front sag on that bike. Then off the bike and remeasure. Put bike on center stand and jack under front of the motor forks fully extended and tire in air. Unscrew the top cap BE CARFULL the springs can have pre load and try to lunch the cap! Most bikes have no or very short steel tubes that go from cap underside to the springs theses are pre load adjusters. Grab some PVC pipe the proper size and cut some up and try adjusting the sag. Oil changes will help the dampening allot. use real fork oil from same MFG and try different weights. Note some mfg sell thing marked same weights but they dampen totally different so if your trying to find just the right weight keep MFG the same.

  • 914Driver

    Jan. 27, 2012 7:38 a.m. 914Driver SuperDork

    I rebuilt the forks on a GPz-1100 I owned. Hardest part was reaching the allen heads at the bottom of the tube. Allen wrench on a 3 ft. pole.

  • Appleseed

    Jan. 27, 2012 1:39 p.m. Appleseed SuperDork

    That's why I came here. Not a whole lot of info for a 33 year old 200cc "beginner" bike out there.

    I should have mentioned that the seals are blown. That's the main reason for the rebuild. I get a lot of dive under hard braking.

    Not my bike but exactly the same:

  • 44Dwarf

    Jan. 27, 2012 1:46 p.m. 44Dwarf Dork

    There not that hard to do look at the parts break down. http://www.cheapcycleparts.com/model_years/95-honda-1981-twinstar-cm200t/assemblie...

    Stick with what you got trying to put Upside down stuff on that bike would be...well a waste of time and $$.

    Pull the axle look up fromt the bottom un top of the axle when veiwed from below theres a Allen head bolt. 8mm i belive is the size, on a 3 inch extention. it's best if you have an impact gun as thet can spin it quick enought to deal with the slip of the inner section. Make sure to get the pistion ring and the gaskets for the lower bolts as well as the seals.

    You'll need large snap ring pliers too.

  • Curmudgeon

    Jan. 27, 2012 3:16 p.m. Curmudgeon SuperDork

    Plus one on the Allen bolt at the bottom of the fork leg. When I did the forks on my XS, rather than buy a megabux Snap On socket I cut off a Allen wrench, then used an air impact and a 6 point 8mm socket. You need thoroughly clean the head of the bolt, set the Allen wrench in it and then tap it in as far as it will go with a hammer. If it's not fully in and square it will booger up the head of the bolt. You do not want to know how I learned this. Then an air impact will zip the bolt right out. It will have a copper washer, don't lose it!

    But before you do all this, while the forks are still on the bike remove the top cap on each leg, this is much easier to do with the fork still on the bike. It holds the spring in place, as you loosen it when it gets to the end of the threads the spring's preload will try to throw the cap across the garage, so be ready. The cap will have very fine threads and when you put the forks back together you will have to push down against the spring and turn the cap at the same time. This means it will be very easy to cross thread on reassembly, so be very careful.

    Once the Allen bolt at the bottom of the leg is removed, the upper chrome leg will pull right out along with the damper rod. The damper rod (#8 in 44dwarf's picture) is what the Allen bolt screwed into. Turn the leg upside down and the damper rod will drop out.

    The seals are held in with snap rings (#14 in the picture). Remove the snap rings with either the snap ring pliers or, if it's the wire type snap rings as the picture shows, an o ring pick. Then remove the metal washer on top of the seal (not shown in the picture but I've seen them on about every fork I have ever disassembled), then use a real live seal puller to yank the seal out. It will save you much grief.

    Generally speaking, stock fork springs are way too soft. They will also 'sag' over time. Progressive Suspension makes good springs, don't waste your time on the 'progressively wound' or dual rate springs, go for a straight rate. Springs can be changed without disassembling the fork, so if your budget doesn't stretch to stiffer springs at the moment you can make spacers out of aluminum or steel tube that will add some preload. This won't make the forks any stiffer but it will ride higher in the stroke which can be a good thing.

    The damper rod will have holes drilled in its sides, these are oil passages. Make sure they are clear. In fact, sometimes it's a good thing to braze up the bottom holes, this will leave nice soft damping in the first couple of inches of the stroke but make it much stiffer toward the bottom which can help with fork dive under braking.

    As the Haynes manuals say, 'assembly is the reverse of disassembly'. I find it easiest to put the damper rods etc back in the tubes, put the springs in, then put the cap back on top first, but not all the way tight. This will hold the damper rod in place while you thread the bottom Allen bolt back in. An air impact will make this easier but don't go overboard. In fact I prefer a 3/8' 'butterfly' impact for this kind of work, it's less prone to over torque stuff.

    Once everything is back together, you need to add fork oil. On old bikes like this, I personally like thick oil such as a 30 wt. It gives a much more controlled feel. The newfangled 2 1/2 wt, 5 wt, etc are just too thin for the old damper rod style forks. It's important that you get the right amount and have it be equal in both forks. A plastic baby bottle is marked in oz, CC's and milliliters, makes it easy to do that right. If you add some extra (maybe 5-7cc per leg), it will also help with stiffening the damping at full compression which is a good thing.

  • alex

    Jan. 27, 2012 3:45 p.m. alex SuperDork

    Grtechguy wrote:

    see if you can retrofit some USD forks on it for an update look.

    This is hilarious overkill for a Twinstar.

  • Appleseed

    Jan. 28, 2012 1:50 a.m. Appleseed SuperDork

    You guys rule.

  • ddavidv

    Jan. 28, 2012 6:17 a.m. ddavidv SuperDork

    With a lot of reluctance I did them on my KLR. It really isn't that difficult if you follow the manual. Worst part for me was setting the oil height, because that controls the ride height somewhat. I just used a metal rod with a piece of tape at the proper depth, kept adding until I reached the magic mark.

    If there are 'dust wipers' replace those too. In the KLR community, the consensus is to only use OEM fork seals. The aftermarket ones promise all kinds of durability but most have found they don't last as long. I wouldn't worry about the springs. I actually wound up enjoying the rebuild and will happily do them again.

  • Curmudgeon

    Jan. 28, 2012 8:12 a.m. Curmudgeon SuperDork

    Fork oil height setting is always referred to with the fork fully compressed. On later cartridge type forks, too much oil will cause the forks to 'hydro lock' at full compression. This is not fun. Too little will lead to poor damping as air gets drawn into the various passages etc.

    Setting the fork oil height is easy if you use the following method: remove the springs and let the forks settle all the way gently. Don't push down! You will get a fountain of oil! If the forks are empty, dump oil in each leg, don't worry about the exact amount right now. In fact it's better to add a little too much, you will see why in a moment. Then put the cap back on and lift/lower the bike several times to pump oil into the various passages, cartridges, etc. then lower the bike to the full compressed position and remove the caps.

    Of course you need to find a way to support the bike with the forks fully compressed. 2x4's or similar work well, or a buddy can hold the bike. The bike needs to be level side to side.

    Once they are settled, use a piece of plastic tubing and a clothespin. Put the clothespin on the tubing at the height you want, we will use 6" for an example. If the tubing curls, a piece of stiff wire shrinkwrapped etc to the side will hold it straight. Stick this in the fork, using the clothespin as a stop.

    Connect a turkey baster to the other end of the tube, squeeze the bulb and let go. This will suction the extra oil out of the tube. Do this 2 or 3 times until you don't get any more oil, then repeat for the other leg. Each leg now has the correct oil level. Reinstall the springs and go riding.

  • Grtechguy

    Jan. 28, 2012 8:30 a.m. Grtechguy SuperDork

    alex wrote:

    Grtechguy wrote:

    see if you can retrofit some USD forks on it for an update look.

    This is hilarious overkill for a Twinstar.

    exactly

 
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