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Login to post Forums » Sprockets » Victory, Made In America, Design in Europe, Or Asia?

Oct. 27, 2011 6:27 p.m. PHeller Dork

I recently learned that Victory motorcycle produces bikes built here in the US, with more US parts than Harley. This is an impressive feat, but people buy Harley's because they look like their dad's old bike, or their grandfathers old bikes. Even the newest HD exudes a classic style, that love it or hate it, hasn't change.

I can't help but think that if Victory put more effort into make their bikes look more like a Honda Shadow 750, or a Sportster, or FLXT, that they'd have more success.

One limitation is the huge engine. It's aircooled. It's 1600cc. It looks fake.

Another is the raked out look and monoshock suspension. Sure these are advanced designed made to improve handling and performance, but they don't look classic, they look futuristic.

And there in is the problem. Victory tries on one hand to draw older customers who want a reliable alternative to a Harley, on the other hand their stuff is so futuristic looking that it appears to compete with Aprilia, or BMW, or Suzuki.
Oct. 27, 2011 7:44 p.m. MG_Bryan Reader

Victory doesn't produce anything that strikes me as an Aprilia or BMW rival. That said, I think Polaris could do better if they'd broaden Victory's range away from the cruisers. Victory builds some pretty ugly bikes in my opinion, but Polaris strikes me a company that would have more success with a volume American sport bike than we've seen in the past. I'm really just bitter that HD ousted Buell and as a result EBR is going to charge 40K for one of the 100 1190RSs they build.
Oct. 27, 2011 7:56 p.m. 44Dwarf Dork

We just have to wait and see what they do with the Indian brand name they bought this summer...
Oct. 28, 2011 12:11 a.m. MitchellC Dork

Do American motorcycle companies just not care about the younger crowd? I really don't understand why the Japanese are so much better at making sport bikes at affordable prices. It's not like manufacturing is cheap in Japan, or that the boat ride overseas is free.

American manufacturers are probably just following the money, which older people tend to have a lot more of. That's understandable. However, as the boomers get deeper into retirement, I'd have to guess that the bikes are the first on the chopping block as money gets tight and the hip gets fragile.
Oct. 28, 2011 7:42 a.m. MadScientistMatt SuperDork

MitchellC wrote:

Do American motorcycle companies just not care about the younger crowd? I really don't understand why the Japanese are so much better at making sport bikes at affordable prices. It's not like manufacturing is cheap in Japan, or that the boat ride overseas is free.

In Harley's case, it would probably be what in business-speak would be "focusing on our core competencies" - they were stuck with outdated designs in the '80s and decided they were going to deliberately build bikes to look old fashioned and make that an asset.

Erik Buell seems to have bought his designs back from Harley and started making them on his own, but it looks like he's designed to start with the expensive side and maybe work his way down to cheap later. Probably wants to show everyone what he could do if Harley's bean counters weren't holding him back. There's a couple other American niche companies trying to build high end sport bikes as well - MotoCzyk (sp?) comes to mind. Could be they wanted to go for a niche you don't have as much competition in.

Polaris may have decided to start with one type of bike and work their way up, as they've now come out with touring bikes as well. I suspect if any American manufacturer plans to take a stab at low priced sport bikes, they may be the ones to try it at some time. It may be too much to ask them to build the Tul-Aris though...
Oct. 28, 2011 7:56 a.m. PHeller Dork

Indian may be Victory's back door into the classic market, but only if they keep can production in the states. They need to market that as well. "Made In America" Produced in City, State", "get a tour at the plant and watch your bike being built"

These are all thing that makes Harley Davidson what it is.

Despite the 2012 lndian Lineup looking decent, I still cant get into those huge bars that disappear into fork you can't even see the top of when seat.
Oct. 28, 2011 9:02 a.m. 44Dwarf Dork

MadScientistMatt wrote:

In Harley's case, it would probably be what in business-speak would be "focusing on our core competencies" - they were stuck with outdated designs in the '80s and decided they were going to deliberately build bikes to look old fashioned and make that an asset.

Well thats partly right. If you look deep in to HD's history then you know they have always been slow to change. Why they want to be around to many other American company's changed with the wind and where are they now? Gone.

For instance look at my 1952 Harley Model K. It's been refereed to the bike of 1st for HD. 1st HD with front and rear suspension. 1st HD with integral transmission. 1st HD with foot shift (right foot for dirt tracking)

At that time it was Harley 1st all new model in 17 years! up even in the 50's they were deliberately slow to bring new to the market. Seems to have worked for them this long why change now?

Victory on the other hand is young in the bike world and needs to do something to bring in the masses. I for one would love to take another one for a spin last one i rode was there 1st or 2nd year and it was a POS clunky shifting top heavy turd.
Oct. 28, 2011 9:02 a.m. stuart in mn SuperDork

I think they bought Indian for the name only, the late model Indians I've seen in person are pretty terrible bikes. I'm not a cruiser bike guy, but I've been impressed with the quality of Victory motorcycles. Hopefully the combination will make the Indian into something worthwhile.

Polaris is on a buying binge recently, besides Indian they also bought GEMS (a manufacturer of electric vehicles, the little cars you see at resorts) and just yesterday they announced they bought a stake in Brammo electric motorcycles.
Oct. 28, 2011 9:40 a.m. Snowdoggie Dork

MitchellC wrote:

Do American motorcycle companies just not care about the younger crowd? I really don't understand why the Japanese are so much better at making sport bikes at affordable prices. It's not like manufacturing is cheap in Japan, or that the boat ride overseas is free.

American manufacturers are probably just following the money, which older people tend to have a lot more of. That's understandable. However, as the boomers get deeper into retirement, I'd have to guess that the bikes are the first on the chopping block as money gets tight and the hip gets fragile.

Actually some guys who get to that age make the decision to go from bikes to trikes when their sense of balance starts to go. That's why you see so many three wheeled Harleys and Gold Wings around.
Oct. 28, 2011 12:14 p.m. Rusnak_322 HalfDork

MG_Bryan wrote:

Victory doesn't produce anything that strikes me as an Aprilia or BMW rival. That said, I think Polaris could do better if they'd broaden Victory's range away from the cruisers. Victory builds some pretty ugly bikes in my opinion, but Polaris strikes me a company that would have more success with a volume American sport bike than we've seen in the past. I'm really just bitter that HD ousted Buell and as a result EBR is going to charge 40K for one of the 100 1190RSs they build.

What about these? I bet they get cross shopped.
Oct. 28, 2011 12:30 p.m. MG_Bryan Reader

In reply to Rusnak_322:

I'll buy that. On the face of it they seems to be going for different markets in my mind but I can see the comparison. I'm still completely lost on how you could cross shop an Victory with an Aprilia, though. Maybe I have tunnel vision though from my own shopping for an RSV
Oct. 28, 2011 10:46 p.m. MitchellC Dork

I prefer the design of the Victory to the BMW. It has much cleaner lines.
Oct. 29, 2011 6:46 a.m. ddavidv SuperDork

I've had a few downed bike claims with the local Victory/Polaris dealer, and we chat about the bike business. This is a dealer with a nice new showroom but in what I'd call a bad, barely visible location. He claims business is booming. And I do see a fair amount of Victorys on the road. What really blows my mind though is the people willing to spend good car (or Kei truck) money on those Gator style ATVs.
Oct. 29, 2011 9:15 a.m. Zomby woof SuperDork

I don't get that either. WTF do they do with them that represents that kind of value? My new truck didn't cost much more than some of the nicer ones.
Oct. 29, 2011 10:29 a.m. Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork

MitchellC wrote:

Do American motorcycle companies just not care about the younger crowd? I really don't understand why the Japanese are so much better at making sport bikes at affordable prices. It's not like manufacturing is cheap in Japan, or that the boat ride overseas is free.

American manufacturers are probably just following the money, which older people tend to have a lot more of. That's understandable. However, as the boomers get deeper into retirement, I'd have to guess that the bikes are the first on the chopping block as money gets tight and the hip gets fragile.

If you want to compete with the japanese or germans for the "younger crowd" (read: motorcyclists) you have to make an insanely stiff 450lb bike with 200hp that can be sold for well under $15k and in doing so, you end up killing half your repeat customers with your product ;).

A 45yr old dentist will pay $25k for parts bin assembled '60s technology and and another $5k on shiny assemblies or logo outfits. It makes great financial sense to cater to them.
Oct. 29, 2011 12:13 p.m. mtownneon New Reader

As to the Buell situation, I have a friend close to that situation, H-D shuttered Buell to concentrate on their "core business", heavy-weight cruisers. Erik has not been able to buy patents from H-D, as matter of fact, H-D has been making sure all Buell patents are tied up as H-D's for years to come. As far as BRP is concerned, it's been said that they tried very hard to buy Buell from H-D but H-D refused. The current CEO of H-D, Keith Wandell had a real dislike of Buell and Erik and was a leading voice in closing Buell and doing as much as possible to limit Erik's ability to continue to build bikes. The good thing is Erik is a very driven person and I think you'll see more great things from him now that he's out from under H-D's mis-management.
Oct. 29, 2011 3:41 p.m. stuart in mn SuperDork

Erik Buell is back in business, apparently in the same building (they're just leasing a smaller area.) There was an article in Cycle World a couple months ago, their latest bike looks pretty good: http://www.erikbuellracing.com/
Oct. 29, 2011 4:15 p.m. MG_Bryan Reader

stuart in mn wrote:

Erik Buell is back in business, apparently in the same building (they're just leasing a smaller area.) There was an article in Cycle World a couple months ago, their latest bike looks pretty good: http://www.erikbuellracing.com/

It looks great. $40,000 is an awful lot of money though.
Oct. 29, 2011 7:24 p.m. MitchellC Dork

Buells are so much more attractive without the jowl intakes.
Oct. 31, 2011 8:27 p.m. wlkelley3 Dork

Isn't Arlen Ness associated with Victory? I think he helped design some of Victory's bikes.
He started as a Harley builder.
Nov. 2, 2011 7:46 a.m. Curmudgeon SuperDork

The last Indian I saw had an S&S motor, it looked like a Big Dog with deep fenders. I wasn't impressed, but then I am not a cruiser bike fan.

It pains me to think that American motorcycle know how seems to be limited to 'potato potato'. If Buell is now using KTM motors, at least he is finally breaking out of the H-D mold and I like that.

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