2019 Toyota 86 GT new car reviews

Does this one really need any explanation? Nope, not really. The reintroduction of the Toyota Supra might be dominating the latest news cycle, but we’re spending the week with an old favorite, the Toyota 86 GT. It’s the updated take of the Scion FR-S and near twin to the Subaru BRZ.

What’s new for ’19? Not much. It’s still powered by a 205-horsepower version of Subaru’s flat-four and contains all the goodness that have made it an autocross and track staple since its introduction.

Wait, the press materials do show an update for the year, the TRD Special Edition. Details from Toyota: “86 TRD Special Edition is North America’s highest performance 86 version thanks to some essential new parts: SACHS dampers, 12.8-/12.4-in. front/rear Brembo brakes, and exclusive 18 x 7.5-in. alloy wheels wrapped in Michelin Pilot Sport 4 tires (sized 215/40R18 85Y all around).” It’s basically what we saw on the BRZ Performance Package.

Our car, though, wasn’t so equipped, although it did showcase something else that’s new: Neptune has been added to the available colors.

Our car also had the Premium Audio w/Navigation and the GT package, bumping the total to $30,800. Shed all of the options, and the 86 starts at $26,445. Looking to spend less? MSRP on the BRZ starts at $25,795.

Other staff views

David S. Wallens David S. Wallens
Editorial Director

It’s still one of my favorite cars of the past decade. Call it today’s version of the NA Miata or the E30 BMW.

It needs more power? Yeah, we’ve heard that one before. Yes, Subaru could add more–from, say, a turbo–but with that would come more weight, more complexity, more heat and, yes, more expense. And for those who have cried for more, well, now those calls have been answered with the announcement of the Supra. (Personally, I think that the 86/BRZ looks way better.)

It had (sadly) been a couple of months since I had driven one of these, and two minutes behind the wheel reminded me why it’s a favorite. It’s the right size, the right shape, the right everything. Love the gauges, shifter, pedals and seat. It’s more analog than some of today’s other offerings. It’s even good on gas and looks great.

If you don’t hear from me again, it’s because we’ve made a run for it.

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NickD
NickD UberDork
2/18/19 10:29 a.m.

I'm really not a fan of the updated bumper. It just looks at odds with the rest of the car for some reason

mad_machine
mad_machine MegaDork
2/18/19 11:35 a.m.

if they had just added a turbo to those cars, it would have been the second coming to a lot of people

NOHOME
NOHOME UltimaDork
2/18/19 11:39 a.m.

Fangs?

Ironic in that a lack of fangs is what people dislike about this car.

I still like mine. Would not buy another because of the boxter engine. 

Coupefan
Coupefan Reader
2/18/19 2:11 p.m.
NickD said:

I'm really not a fan of the updated bumper. It just looks at odds with the rest of the car for some reason

Neither am I.  The back end got 'Civic'd'  Designers take exceptional liberty during refreshes and often produce some serious bastard children designs. 

Coupefan
Coupefan Reader
2/18/19 2:13 p.m.

Ah, the power issue...again.  If you want something with a big honkin engine that goes like hell in a straight line then purchase such a vehicle. Don't ruin the balance, weight or price point of this current product. 

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
2/18/19 2:21 p.m.

I have to say, the new special edition in BRG looks awesome:

Although appears to be JDM only right now. 

Joe Gearin
Joe Gearin Associate Publisher
2/18/19 3:00 p.m.

In reply to Coupefan :

For many, power isn't the issue, it's the way the power is delivered.  The "flat spot" at about 3,500 rpm is a real downer.....for me at least.  I wouldn't mind 200hp if it was delivered in a zingy-- rush to the redline sorta way.

Great cars--- with an uninspiring engine.  IMHO 

That BRG does look fantastic though! 

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt PowerDork
2/18/19 3:49 p.m.

What sort of color is "Neptune," anyway? I would have expected it to be blue and not black.

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
2/18/19 3:53 p.m.
Coupefan said:

Ah, the power issue...again.  If you want something with a big honkin engine that goes like hell in a straight line then purchase such a vehicle. Don't ruin the balance, weight or price point of this current product. 

I’d agree with you if not for the turbo in the Mustangs and Camaros that this car is priced against.

livinon2wheels
livinon2wheels New Reader
2/18/19 5:07 p.m.

Personally, if it had just a free revving cammed up 2.5 liter NA engine, that would fit in the car without extra heat or packaging problems, give a boatload more torque throughout the rpm range and make for a much more fun to drive package. 2.0 liters the way its set up just aint enough...but it is fuel efficient. The one I had would get high 30s on the highway which was pretty nice for road trips. 

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
2/18/19 7:28 p.m.

Derka, derka, derka, more power, derka, derka.

 

There, we got that out of the way.

Dave M
Dave M Reader
2/18/19 7:31 p.m.
nderwater said:
Coupefan said:

Ah, the power issue...again.  If you want something with a big honkin engine that goes like hell in a straight line then purchase such a vehicle. Don't ruin the balance, weight or price point of this current product. 

I’d agree with you if not for the turbo in the Mustangs and Camaros that this car is priced against.

Has anyone done an Ecotec swap? That would go, like, really fast.

MrChaos
MrChaos Dork
2/18/19 7:50 p.m.

In reply to Dave M :

LS swaps are the same $$ if not cheaper and have been done many many times.

The0retical
The0retical UberDork
2/18/19 7:51 p.m.
mad_machine said:

if they had just added a turbo to those cars, it would have been the second coming to a lot of people

Or at least offered it as a TRD option ala Scion TC (yes it was a supercharger.)

No offense to Toyota (I love that it exists) but we're headed the same way as the 370z. It's old production with a facelift. 

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
2/18/19 9:06 p.m.

Of course I'd love to have more power, but the reason to like the twins is the same reason to like the Miata.  I had an NA and it was great - small, fun, great tool to learn for the track and it was really affordable.  Granted the twins are not nearly as cheap, but it's got many of the same characteristics, with a fixed roof for better protection and more room to carry tires/tools.  For people who think the competitors are Camaro/Mustang I'm sorry but they're totally different cars with totally different goals in mind.  

It feels like the next step up with similar characteristics is a Cayman, and that's another league in terms of cost (both initial and maintenance).  Obviously significantly better performance as well... 

 

Captain Nemo
Captain Nemo New Reader
2/18/19 9:30 p.m.

I love these cars and have always been a fan of the flat four. A lot of potential imo. And they look great. Wish they got more press tho.

ae86andkp61
ae86andkp61 HalfDork
2/18/19 9:33 p.m.
Coupefan said

Neither am I.  The back end got 'Civic'd'  Designers take exceptional liberty during refreshes and often produce some serious bastard children designs. 

This. Some people think I’m crazy, but I think the first iteration of many models is often the best from a styling perspective. It is a cohesive whole, done by an individual (or team) with a vision (or at least a brief.) The facelifted version that comes later is often berkeleyed from the get-go because it can’t look the same as the old one, needs to look “newer” and “fresh,” regardless of how that newness meshes with the old original design...aaaand it can’t be too expensive (like new major stampings) so you are left with a older car with a new grille/bumpers/taillights, often done by someone with no connection to the original.

te72
te72 Reader
2/19/19 12:58 a.m.
Ian F said:

I have to say, the new special edition in BRG looks awesome:

Although appears to be JDM only right now. 

If I were gonna get one... it'd be this one. Looks great! Sadly, like so many cool things in the past, this one is a Japanese exclusive. Perhaps that'll change in the future.

 

I liked the FR-S I drove on a road trip. Had no trouble getting it to do whatever I wanted (apart from shutting off the traction control that's absolutely too complicated), was reasonably quick straight line if you know how to drive a car like that, and the handling was absolutely confidence inspiring.

 

For those that compare this to a modern pony car, yes, those have gotten quite good in the last couple generations. Only took them fifty years to figure out how to build a rear axle fit for a sports car, but that's a road we've been down before. My biggest gripe about the pony cars is still visibility, and the fact that a four cylinder car has no excuse for being over 3000 lbs...

te72
te72 Reader
2/19/19 1:00 a.m.
ae86andkp61 said:
Coupefan said

Neither am I.  The back end got 'Civic'd'  Designers take exceptional liberty during refreshes and often produce some serious bastard children designs. 

This. Some people think I’m crazy, but I think the first iteration of many models is often the best from a styling perspective.

Normally I'd agree with you, but after looking at your user name, I'm sure you'll agree that the later Mk2 and later Mk3 Supras both look better than the first versions of those cars. Having owned a few of each over the years, I can definitely say I'm more partial to the later cars of each generation...

 

ae86andkp61
ae86andkp61 HalfDork
2/19/19 1:08 a.m.

In reply to te72 :

Yup, agreed on the Supra, but the styling revisions were a bit beyond the typical facelift, FWIW.

 

The Lotus Esprit is another model that fared amazingly well through the facelifts. Exceptions to every rule I guess...

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE Reader
2/19/19 10:49 a.m.

Has anyone attempted to swap in the Subaru Flat-6 into one of these?

Robbie
Robbie UltimaDork
2/19/19 10:52 a.m.
GIRTHQUAKE said:

Has anyone attempted to swap in the Subaru Flat-6 into one of these?

No. If you own one you are satisfied with the power and you wouldn't want to add more to ruin the car's balance. 

devil

NickD
NickD UberDork
2/19/19 11:00 a.m.

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

One of the Subaru tuning houses, Ali Ashfar if I recall, put the old SVX EZ33 3.3L flat six in one

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
2/19/19 11:12 a.m.

Reading the comments, it's pretty clear why Toyota is going to stop selling this sooner than later.

Everyone wants a car like this, until presented with what they want.  Then they want someone else to buy it, so they can get one used.

Furious_E
Furious_E UltraDork
2/19/19 11:47 a.m.
Joe Gearin said:

In reply to Coupefan :

For many, power isn't the issue, it's the way the power is delivered.  The "flat spot" at about 3,500 rpm is a real downer.....for me at least.  I wouldn't mind 200hp if it was delivered in a zingy-- rush to the redline sorta way.

Great cars--- with an uninspiring engine.  IMHO 

That BRG does look fantastic though! 

I agree with this 100%. The engine just doesn't have any "character" to it - it's not torquey down low, nor does it really zing! up top, and it has the big stupid flat spot in the midrange. If they had made this thing with a K20 (just to use an example I'm familiar with that makes similar peak numbers), no one would bitch about lack of power. I also fail to see how a boxer is superior in any practical way to an I4.

In spite of all this, I still love mine. 

Furious_E
Furious_E UltraDork
2/19/19 11:52 a.m.
te72 said:
Ian F said:

I have to say, the new special edition in BRG looks awesome:

Although appears to be JDM only right now. 

 

I liked the FR-S I drove on a road trip. Had no trouble getting it to do whatever I wanted (apart from shutting off the traction control that's absolutely too complicated), was reasonably quick straight line if you know how to drive a car like that, and the handling was absolutely confidence inspiring.

 

The "pedal dance" isn't too hard once you get the hang of it. Engine fully warmed up, within 30s of starting up, pull once, twice, three times on the hand brake and hold, press once, twice, three times on the brakes and hold, pull three times and hold again on the hand brake, press twice on the brake pedal and you're done! Simple, right? cheeky

Seriously though, if you're going to put a button there to (sort of) disable traction and stability control, why not make it actually disable traction and stability control??

NickD
NickD UberDork
2/19/19 12:10 p.m.
alfadriver said:

Everyone wants a car like this, until presented with what they want. 

Kinda like how everyone complained that the modern pony cars are too big and heavy. So GM goes and downsizes the 6th-gen Camaro and makes them lighter and then sales fall to dead last, behind even the hefty, antiquated Challenger

Dave M
Dave M Reader
2/19/19 12:12 p.m.
alfadriver said:

Reading the comments, it's pretty clear why Toyota is going to stop selling this sooner than later.

Everyone wants a car like this, until presented with what they want.  Then they want someone else to buy it, so they can get one used.

So IMHO a Miata is better in most every way except for the roof or lack thereof. Add to that the "tuner" image of the twins and it's no wonder nobody buys them. Heck, even at the track it seems like the twins are up there with S2000s and VWs for the proportion of flat-brimmed, agro drivers.

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
2/19/19 12:27 p.m.
Robbie said:
GIRTHQUAKE said:

Has anyone attempted to swap in the Subaru Flat-6 into one of these?

No. If you own one you are satisfied with the power and you wouldn't want to add more to ruin the car's balance. 

devil

No, because...

cheeky

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
2/19/19 12:38 p.m.
Dave M said:

So IMHO a Miata is better in most every way except for the roof or lack thereof. Add to that the "tuner" image of the twins and it's no wonder nobody buys them. Heck, even at the track it seems like the twins are up there with S2000s and VWs for the proportion of flat-brimmed, agro drivers.

The sales of the twins are basically the same as the Miata... They're niche cars.  And I'm not sure your sample size, but based on my limited observations (~25 events) ego-driven drivers come from all walks of life.  There are no shortage of them regardless of make or model.  

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
2/19/19 12:57 p.m.
alfadriver said:

Reading the comments, it's pretty clear why Toyota is going to stop selling this sooner than later.

Everyone wants a car like this, until presented with what they want.  Then they want someone else to buy it, so they can get one used.

Hey, Appleseed, didn't you buy one?

Yep. Brand new. I'm the only owner. Only 3 other people have ever driven it. You cheap bastards can have it when I'm dead, because I'll never sell it.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/19/19 1:38 p.m.
Furious_E said:
te72 said:
Ian F said:

I have to say, the new special edition in BRG looks awesome:

Although appears to be JDM only right now. 

 

I liked the FR-S I drove on a road trip. Had no trouble getting it to do whatever I wanted (apart from shutting off the traction control that's absolutely too complicated), was reasonably quick straight line if you know how to drive a car like that, and the handling was absolutely confidence inspiring.

 

The "pedal dance" isn't too hard once you get the hang of it. Engine fully warmed up, within 30s of starting up, pull once, twice, three times on the hand brake and hold, press once, twice, three times on the brakes and hold, pull three times and hold again on the hand brake, press twice on the brake pedal and you're done! Simple, right? cheeky

Seriously though, if you're going to put a button there to (sort of) disable traction and stability control, why not make it actually disable traction and stability control??

Or you can buy a $100 box that plugs into the car and you just press one button after you start the car. 

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
2/19/19 1:43 p.m.
Appleseed said:
alfadriver said:

Reading the comments, it's pretty clear why Toyota is going to stop selling this sooner than later.

Everyone wants a car like this, until presented with what they want.  Then they want someone else to buy it, so they can get one used.

Hey, Appleseed, didn't you buy one?

Yep. Brand new. I'm the only owner. Only 3 other people have ever driven it. You cheap bastards can have it when I'm dead, because I'll never sell it.

smileyyes

But when you see the posts that crap all over the car, in spite of it being exactly what people said they wanted....  I really wonder how many have actually driven one.

As a side note, the ONLY car that I've ever actually bought brand new (I don't count lease cars) is my '99 Miata, which I am restoring.  It fit all of what I wanted, even if imperfect.  Love the car.

NickD
NickD UberDork
2/19/19 2:06 p.m.

I've driven one at an autocross and ridden in a few. I didn't think they were underpowered. But then again, I spent a good portion of my driving career behind the wheel of a 1.6L Miata with 90whp and a 1993 Subaru Loyale that had 85 crank horsepower when new (and I'm sure a lot of those ponies had left the stable) and a 3-speed automatic, so my power scale was skewed a little.

One of those FR-S I rode in had a cold-air intake, unequal length headers, catalytic converter delete, cat-back exhaust and one of those silly Afterfire tunes that turns it into an opposed-piston popcorn machine on decel and shoot the occasional small fireball. It sounded great and the power felt just right for that car. If I had one, I'd want it set up to pull like that thing

Wiscocrashtest
Wiscocrashtest New Reader
2/19/19 2:26 p.m.

A catless header and an off-the-shelf tune does wonders for the motor. Almost completely eliminates the flat spot and gives just enough of a power bump to feel "right."

I do agree the overall character of the motor isn't endearing. The ND is much better here. Not sure what can be done (cheaply) about that.

I need to look into the pedal-dance button thing - I hate going through that.

It's funny reading about all the complaints on the power of the 86. When I was in high school - I remember people going through all kinds of work to swap in a 200hp SR into an S13/S14, giving the same P/W that the 86 had. Yeah, some were tuned for more power but a lot of folks ran out of money at that point and were just running ~220bhp. That's in a 2800lb car, just like the 86. I didn't think my 155bhp stock S13 was particularly slow.

Another highschool-era champ was the ITR. 2600lbs and 200bhp - pretty close to a reflashed 86. It's the "just right" ratio for a sporty street car.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
2/19/19 2:30 p.m.

In reply to Wiscocrashtest :

That's not exactly a legal modification....  For multiple reasons.  Can run in a stock class with that mod, and I would not want to drive it more than a few min.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/19/19 2:31 p.m.

Catless header + E85 tune does a lot for the engine. 

I'm Gearin on this one. I owned one for just over 3 years. That torque dip in the middle of the powerband could make around town driving frustrating. Just E85 nearly eliminates that. 

Keep the motor above 5k and it moves fairly well. 

Flynlow
Flynlow HalfDork
2/19/19 2:34 p.m.
NickD said:
alfadriver said:

Everyone wants a car like this, until presented with what they want. 

Kinda like how everyone complained that the modern pony cars are too big and heavy. So GM goes and downsizes the 6th-gen Camaro and makes them lighter and then sales fall to dead last, behind even the hefty, antiquated Challenger

My complaint about the Camaro is you can't see out of it and the interior is tiny and cheap.   They have fixed none of those things. 

Four 200lb adults can take a dodge challenger to lunch.

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
2/19/19 2:36 p.m.

I've driven one, but not in any sort of anger - my boss let me drive his first year FRS a week or so after he picked it up.  It's his 3 season DD.  He hasn't complained about the power.  The power seemed fine to me, but the 200-ish HP in my R53 JCW seems more than adequate to me. Especially compared to my LBCs and my TDI wagon.  

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
2/19/19 2:52 p.m.

Honest question - for folks that dislike the car for power reasons, what are the alternatives if you want a fixed roof and usable trunk?  E46 330 or something?  

I'm sure we all want more power / lower weight / cheaper price, but you know, reality and all that... 

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
2/19/19 2:55 p.m.
z31maniac said:

Catless header + E85 tune does a lot for the engine. 

I'm Gearin on this one. I owned one for just over 3 years. That torque dip in the middle of the powerband could make around town driving frustrating. Just E85 nearly eliminates that. 

Keep the motor above 5k and it moves fairly well. 

Odd that the engine needs a pretty darned illegal modification to make it fun (the E85 part is less bad than taking the cats out, but not much- I'd rather not DD a catless car anymore).  Subaru didn't do their homework all that well, it seems.

OldGray320i
OldGray320i Dork
2/19/19 3:36 p.m.
alfadriver said:
z31maniac said:

Catless header + E85 tune does a lot for the engine. 

I'm Gearin on this one. I owned one for just over 3 years. That torque dip in the middle of the powerband could make around town driving frustrating. Just E85 nearly eliminates that. 

Keep the motor above 5k and it moves fairly well. 

Odd that the engine needs a pretty darned illegal modification to make it fun (the E85 part is less bad than taking the cats out, but not much- I'd rather not DD a catless car anymore).  Subaru didn't do their homework all that well, it seems.

Wouldn't improving the characteristics of the motor be a factory tune away?

Seems odd to me they couldn't easily change that a bit, so is the real culprit the compliance cost of re-certifty emissions?

Or is it a mileage thing where they think mpg would shrink to a point the "average user" would pass the car by (hard to believe for me given what the car is...)?

I drove a BRZ when they came out, loved the handling, but the feel of power delivery was a dream killer. 

I still think about one of these from time to time, but I'm not sure I could let go of the NB.

Wiscocrashtest
Wiscocrashtest New Reader
2/19/19 3:41 p.m.

There are two cats on these cars. The smaller one built into the stock exhaust manifold is for cold-start emissions. There is a larger, tradition cat immediately after the "header". Removing that doesn't free up much power and most people (me included) keep that main stock cat in place.

Wiscocrashtest
Wiscocrashtest New Reader
2/19/19 3:43 p.m.

r is it a mileage thing where they think mpg would shrink to a point the "average user" would pass the car by (hard to believe for me given what the car is...)?

With my tune I still see 32mpg on the highway and 28-30 combined. Running 93, not E85.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
2/19/19 4:06 p.m.
OldGray320i said:
alfadriver said:
z31maniac said:

Catless header + E85 tune does a lot for the engine. 

I'm Gearin on this one. I owned one for just over 3 years. That torque dip in the middle of the powerband could make around town driving frustrating. Just E85 nearly eliminates that. 

Keep the motor above 5k and it moves fairly well. 

Odd that the engine needs a pretty darned illegal modification to make it fun (the E85 part is less bad than taking the cats out, but not much- I'd rather not DD a catless car anymore).  Subaru didn't do their homework all that well, it seems.

Wouldn't improving the characteristics of the motor be a factory tune away?

Seems odd to me they couldn't easily change that a bit, so is the real culprit the compliance cost of re-certifty emissions?

Or is it a mileage thing where they think mpg would shrink to a point the "average user" would pass the car by (hard to believe for me given what the car is...)?

I drove a BRZ when they came out, loved the handling, but the feel of power delivery was a dream killer. 

I still think about one of these from time to time, but I'm not sure I could let go of the NB.

A "tune" shouldn't be needed.  That's kind of my point.

Add in the fact that they have to use restrictive catalysts- something seems odd to me.

If you want to do flex fuel- that should be a tune away, but not good power that is fun.  Something seems wrong to me, in terms of what Subaru is doing.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
2/19/19 4:09 p.m.
Wiscocrashtest said:

There are two cats on these cars. The smaller one built into the stock exhaust manifold is for cold-start emissions. There is a larger, tradition cat immediately after the "header". Removing that doesn't free up much power and most people (me included) keep that main stock cat in place.

Given the current state of the art, it's highly likely that the tiny, restrictive, catalysts are the main ones.  

Again, the fact that this set up is used, and it's pretty restrictive, suggests that Subaru didn't do their homework.  Toyota could have done a lot better.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
2/19/19 5:43 p.m.

How much do you think we'd see if you replaced those cats with a quality, high flow cat?

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
2/19/19 6:44 p.m.

In reply to Appleseed :

That, I really don't know.  

Do any of you know what is in the tune that unlocks the midrange?

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/19/19 7:06 p.m.
alfadriver said:

In reply to Appleseed :

That, I really don't know.  

Do any of you know what is in the tune that unlocks the midrange?

Ignition timing and cam timing.

 

You can actually download all the Open Flash Tablet tunes and look at STFT, LTFT, targets, etc.

 

The intake roar with the aftermarket tune is noticeable in the midrange. I suspect there is some use of reversion in the midrange with the cam timing.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
2/19/19 7:41 p.m.

I could ask a bunch of questions. But for this thread, I hope this new version solves those issues. 

Dave M
Dave M Reader
2/19/19 8:09 p.m.
bcp2011 said:

Honest question - for folks that dislike the car for power reasons, what are the alternatives if you want a fixed roof and usable trunk?  E46 330 or something?  

I'm sure we all want more power / lower weight / cheaper price, but you know, reality and all that... 

Boostang, even though it's not really a comparable car, it is a practical car...

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
2/19/19 9:50 p.m.
Dave M said:

Boostang, even though it's not really a comparable car, it is a practical car...

That's the thing, the FoST is an even more practical car, but FWD... so it just seems like a slippery slope until the essence of a simple sports car is no longer there.  

Just to be clear I'm not here to defend the car even though I own one.  I did some serious research on the 2.0T 1LE Camaro when it first came out but that thing is close to 3500lbs and I just can't get over that.  I just love light weight cars so much more than meaty ones.  Another one that came to mind is a 2 series - those are ~3100 lbs if ordered without the sunroof and with plain seats.  Not bad given the power, but certainly not a lightweight...  Ugh I wish there are more choices! 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/20/19 7:21 a.m.
bcp2011 said:
Dave M said:

Boostang, even though it's not really a comparable car, it is a practical car...

That's the thing, the FoST is an even more practical car, but FWD... so it just seems like a slippery slope until the essence of a simple sports car is no longer there.  

Just to be clear I'm not here to defend the car even though I own one.  I did some serious research on the 2.0T 1LE Camaro when it first came out but that thing is close to 3500lbs and I just can't get over that.  I just love light weight cars so much more than meaty ones.  Another one that came to mind is a 2 series - those are ~3100 lbs if ordered without the sunroof and with plain seats.  Not bad given the power, but certainly not a lightweight...  Ugh I wish there are more choices! 

BRZ + Edelbrock supercharger. 

Yes, you lose your 5/60k drivetrain warranty. But if installed by ASE tech, Edelbrock will still give you a 3/36k drivetrain warranty. So it would be best advised to start with a new one. The warranty lasts until 3/36k, not 3/36k after the Supercharger is installed.

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
2/20/19 8:46 a.m.
z31maniac said:

BRZ + Edelbrock supercharger. 

Yes, you lose your 5/60k drivetrain warranty. But if installed by ASE tech, Edelbrock will still give you a 3/36k drivetrain warranty. So it would be best advised to start with a new one. The warranty lasts until 3/36k, not 3/36k after the Supercharger is installed.

Good option, especially if warranty is needed.  It seems for maybe not much more an LS swap could be a candidate as well...  I have a 13 so either way it's no longer covered by anything.  :)

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/20/19 11:16 a.m.
bcp2011 said:
z31maniac said:

BRZ + Edelbrock supercharger. 

Yes, you lose your 5/60k drivetrain warranty. But if installed by ASE tech, Edelbrock will still give you a 3/36k drivetrain warranty. So it would be best advised to start with a new one. The warranty lasts until 3/36k, not 3/36k after the Supercharger is installed.

Good option, especially if warranty is needed.  It seems for maybe not much more an LS swap could be a candidate as well...  I have a 13 so either way it's no longer covered by anything.  :)

No warranty, install it yourself in an afternoon. 

A proper LS swap in a twin is going to be 3-6x the cost of the Edelbrock Supercharger depending on your ratio of new/used and buying/fabricating parts. 

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
2/20/19 11:30 a.m.
z31maniac said:

No warranty, install it yourself in an afternoon. 

A proper LS swap in a twin is going to be 3-6x the cost of the Edelbrock Supercharger depending on your ratio of new/used and buying/fabricating parts. 

Just looked up how much the SC is - holy smokes!  And if the LS swap is 3x that it's basically the cost of the car!  No thanks - probably just stick to nitrous.  

just kidding, not on nitrous.  :)

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
2/20/19 11:40 a.m.

In reply to bcp2011 :

As mentioned, it'll probably depend on the level of fabricating and parts sourcing you can do, but easily 3x or more, based on the pricing in the WGP swap kit.  Which ranges from $3200 to $11K, not including the engine and transmission. There may be cheaper kits, but that's what a quick bit of Google came up with, which seems roughly in line with FM's pricing on Miata kits.  Bearing in mind, it's not just the materials, but the time and research that has gone into making a kit that generally works every time.  

Dave M
Dave M Reader
2/20/19 2:18 p.m.
bcp2011 said:
Dave M said:

Boostang, even though it's not really a comparable car, it is a practical car...

That's the thing, the FoST is an even more practical car, but FWD... so it just seems like a slippery slope until the essence of a simple sports car is no longer there.  

Just to be clear I'm not here to defend the car even though I own one.  I did some serious research on the 2.0T 1LE Camaro when it first came out but that thing is close to 3500lbs and I just can't get over that.  I just love light weight cars so much more than meaty ones.  Another one that came to mind is a 2 series - those are ~3100 lbs if ordered without the sunroof and with plain seats.  Not bad given the power, but certainly not a lightweight...  Ugh I wish there are more choices! 

Well I guess there's always a Cayman, although that is twice the price and no longer a N/A 6.

The supercharger option is great, but once you get into modding and/or used cars I end up asking questions like, why not just throw this same money at a C5 Z06 and make something really fast? 

Wiscocrashtest
Wiscocrashtest New Reader
2/20/19 3:10 p.m.
bcp2011 said:
Dave M said:

Boostang, even though it's not really a comparable car, it is a practical car...

That's the thing, the FoST is an even more practical car, but FWD... so it just seems like a slippery slope until the essence of a simple sports car is no longer there.  

I own a BRZ and a FoST. I've also driven a few EB Mustangs. The Mustang feels like a different animal from the other two. Feels way bigger, way heavier. A really nice all-around car and a nice place to be in - but it's not a car the eggs you on like the Focus or 86.

The Focus and BRZ are also quite different. The number that tells the story is 120. That's how much more torque the FoST has. It just pulls. There's no point to winding it out, but above 2500rpm it just goes. It feels (to me) like a little too much motor for the chassis and you're sort of fighting it a lot when on the street. It works better on the track, and the factory handling is great. You really can get the car to dance around, something I've never experience before in FWD.

The BRZ is even better on the track. Its scalpel-precise and totally content to play around as much as you like. You feel more in control of what's going on instead of riding the bronco that is the FoST torque. The driving position and how low-low the car is feels more special. The shifter is better, steering is better, seats are better. The radio is garbage and there's a lot of road noise. But when you're really pressing on the BRZ really shines compared to the Focus. It's almost as good as my 986 was.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/20/19 4:48 p.m.
Dave M said:
bcp2011 said:
Dave M said:

Boostang, even though it's not really a comparable car, it is a practical car...

That's the thing, the FoST is an even more practical car, but FWD... so it just seems like a slippery slope until the essence of a simple sports car is no longer there.  

Just to be clear I'm not here to defend the car even though I own one.  I did some serious research on the 2.0T 1LE Camaro when it first came out but that thing is close to 3500lbs and I just can't get over that.  I just love light weight cars so much more than meaty ones.  Another one that came to mind is a 2 series - those are ~3100 lbs if ordered without the sunroof and with plain seats.  Not bad given the power, but certainly not a lightweight...  Ugh I wish there are more choices! 

Well I guess there's always a Cayman, although that is twice the price and no longer a N/A 6.

The supercharger option is great, but once you get into modding and/or used cars I end up asking questions like, why not just throw this same money at a C5 Z06 and make something really fast? 

Not everyone wants 90s styling with a garbage interior?

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
2/20/19 5:00 p.m.
Dave M said:

Well I guess there's always a Cayman, although that is twice the price and no longer a N/A 6.

The supercharger option is great, but once you get into modding and/or used cars I end up asking questions like, why not just throw this same money at a C5 Z06 and make something really fast? 

Hard to argue with C5 Z06 performance / price ratio...  Just don't think I'm good enough to take full advantage of it for a while!

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
2/20/19 5:04 p.m.

In reply to Wiscocrashtest :

Haven't driven those other cars mentioned but have had chances to ride in them on track.  They feel very different...  Still ready for a Cayman GT4 though!  wink

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
2/20/19 9:14 p.m.
z31maniac said:
Dave M said:
bcp2011 said:
Dave M said:

Boostang, even though it's not really a comparable car, it is a practical car...

That's the thing, the FoST is an even more practical car, but FWD... so it just seems like a slippery slope until the essence of a simple sports car is no longer there.  

Just to be clear I'm not here to defend the car even though I own one.  I did some serious research on the 2.0T 1LE Camaro when it first came out but that thing is close to 3500lbs and I just can't get over that.  I just love light weight cars so much more than meaty ones.  Another one that came to mind is a 2 series - those are ~3100 lbs if ordered without the sunroof and with plain seats.  Not bad given the power, but certainly not a lightweight...  Ugh I wish there are more choices! 

Well I guess there's always a Cayman, although that is twice the price and no longer a N/A 6.

The supercharger option is great, but once you get into modding and/or used cars I end up asking questions like, why not just throw this same money at a C5 Z06 and make something really fast? 

Not everyone wants 90s styling with a garbage interior?

Hard to get a C5 with a warranty these days, too.

Cotton
Cotton PowerDork
2/20/19 10:05 p.m.
z31maniac said:
Dave M said:
bcp2011 said:
Dave M said:

Boostang, even though it's not really a comparable car, it is a practical car...

That's the thing, the FoST is an even more practical car, but FWD... so it just seems like a slippery slope until the essence of a simple sports car is no longer there.  

Just to be clear I'm not here to defend the car even though I own one.  I did some serious research on the 2.0T 1LE Camaro when it first came out but that thing is close to 3500lbs and I just can't get over that.  I just love light weight cars so much more than meaty ones.  Another one that came to mind is a 2 series - those are ~3100 lbs if ordered without the sunroof and with plain seats.  Not bad given the power, but certainly not a lightweight...  Ugh I wish there are more choices! 

Well I guess there's always a Cayman, although that is twice the price and no longer a N/A 6.

The supercharger option is great, but once you get into modding and/or used cars I end up asking questions like, why not just throw this same money at a C5 Z06 and make something really fast? 

Not everyone wants 90s styling with a garbage interior?

The brz interior is nothing special.  

te72
te72 Reader
2/21/19 1:25 a.m.

In reply to Furious_E :

Bingo. If you're gonna put in a button to turn off a feature, make it, you know, functional. If the lawyers are worried about the results, perhaps disclaim warranty repairs if that button is active. Make the driver hold the button down or confirm with something like a push of a particular button on the dash. Easy enough...

te72
te72 Reader
2/21/19 1:49 a.m.

In reply to Cotton :

Seats in a C5 are awful in comparison to seats from the twins. I say this despite having a very longstanding love affair with the C5, but I will say that the interior brings the whole experience down, overall. The seats in the twins feel like a lot of Recaros I've sat in.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/21/19 7:15 a.m.
Cotton said:
z31maniac said:
Dave M said:
bcp2011 said:
Dave M said:

Boostang, even though it's not really a comparable car, it is a practical car...

That's the thing, the FoST is an even more practical car, but FWD... so it just seems like a slippery slope until the essence of a simple sports car is no longer there.  

Just to be clear I'm not here to defend the car even though I own one.  I did some serious research on the 2.0T 1LE Camaro when it first came out but that thing is close to 3500lbs and I just can't get over that.  I just love light weight cars so much more than meaty ones.  Another one that came to mind is a 2 series - those are ~3100 lbs if ordered without the sunroof and with plain seats.  Not bad given the power, but certainly not a lightweight...  Ugh I wish there are more choices! 

Well I guess there's always a Cayman, although that is twice the price and no longer a N/A 6.

The supercharger option is great, but once you get into modding and/or used cars I end up asking questions like, why not just throw this same money at a C5 Z06 and make something really fast? 

Not everyone wants 90s styling with a garbage interior?

The brz interior is nothing special.  

Sure, it's no BMW M car, but the Limited with the Alcantara is dramatically better than the C5. 

YMMV, different strokes for different folks, it's the internet so my opinion is always rights, and all that. 

OldGray320i
OldGray320i Dork
2/21/19 3:08 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

My question or comment was really more of a " this is a cheap easy fix for next year" and why wouldn't they?

Unless it's not that simple, and since you're engine management (or close),  I figured you'd know if it's as simple a "fix" as it seems.

The "why's" are up to the suits at SubToy.

barefootskater
barefootskater Dork
2/21/19 3:32 p.m.

Today I learned that I could get a brand new sexy mustang with 310hp and 6 gears for well, well under $30k. So thanks for that.

I work at the big T and I have never driven a twin. I think there are some things in my life I need to change.

Mr_Clutch42
Mr_Clutch42 SuperDork
2/21/19 8:58 p.m.

Now that I just bought an '06 Jetta TDI 5-speed last month, my next toy car needs to be a '14-'15 BRZ (after I fix my broken Miata cheeky)

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
2/21/19 9:22 p.m.
Mr_Clutch42 said:

Now that I just bought an '06 Jetta TDI 5-speed last month, my next toy car needs to be a '14-'15 BRZ (after I fix my broken Miata cheeky)

Go for a 15+ if possible.  Small issues have been solved by then (e.g., the ignition coils tend to go bad when taken on track and exposed to high temps for extended periods - I've changed two of them at the track and keep a couple of them on hand for just this issue).  

Mr_Clutch42
Mr_Clutch42 SuperDork
2/22/19 5:32 p.m.

In reply to bcp2011 :

For the 15+, did they figure out how to fix the engine oil overheating? I specifically remember that being an odd problem for a new sports car.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/24/19 8:16 p.m.
Mr_Clutch42 said:

In reply to bcp2011 :

For the 15+, did they figure out how to fix the engine oil overheating? I specifically remember that being an odd problem for a new sports car.

On track, no. They need an oil cooler. So do new Miata's, Camaros, Mustangs, Corvettes, etc.

I'm not sure why this seems odd.

te72
te72 Reader
2/24/19 10:18 p.m.
z31maniac said:
Mr_Clutch42 said:

In reply to bcp2011 :

For the 15+, did they figure out how to fix the engine oil overheating? I specifically remember that being an odd problem for a new sports car.

On track, no. They need an oil cooler. So do new Miata's, Camaros, Mustangs, Corvettes, etc.

I'm not sure why this seems odd.

I'm not sure why any car that has these sorts of intentions is sold without an oil cooler, honestly. Sure, it's an extra $100 or so, but surely that isn't gonna make or break enough sales that it is worth NOT setting the car up correctl from the factory?

 

I mean, the new car has a warranty. That warranty presumably covers engine damage due to oil that's pushed past its limits, I would think. I guess the easiest thing to do would be to recommend a particular oil for track use.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
2/25/19 4:24 a.m.

It another assembly to spring a leak. Another assembly to warranty.  I'd bet 95% never see a track. Why add it if only 5% are ever going to need it?

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/25/19 8:28 a.m.
te72 said:
z31maniac said:
Mr_Clutch42 said:

In reply to bcp2011 :

For the 15+, did they figure out how to fix the engine oil overheating? I specifically remember that being an odd problem for a new sports car.

On track, no. They need an oil cooler. So do new Miata's, Camaros, Mustangs, Corvettes, etc.

I'm not sure why this seems odd.

I'm not sure why any car that has these sorts of intentions is sold without an oil cooler, honestly. Sure, it's an extra $100 or so, but surely that isn't gonna make or break enough sales that it is worth NOT setting the car up correctl from the factory?

 

I mean, the new car has a warranty. That warranty presumably covers engine damage due to oil that's pushed past its limits, I would think. I guess the easiest thing to do would be to recommend a particular oil for track use.

Think of the early GT350s that didn't have the engine or trans cooler, why would Ford do that? 

Like Appleseed said, no point in adding cost and complexity when most don't need it. 

There is also the fact that synthetic is good to 300F, and most modern cars will put the car in limp mode to protect it when oil gets that hot.

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
2/25/19 10:42 a.m.

I do applaud Chevy for offering a track pack on their performance vehicles and going above and beyond on warranties as well.  Toyoburu knows that the car will be tracked, so why not make track components an option?  Obviously the same goes for all the other performance car manufacturers...

Having said that, probably not worth it to install an oil cooler on every car when only a few will even put it to good use... 

AlcantaraFTW
AlcantaraFTW New Reader
2/25/19 11:06 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

Ford did it because they offered two packages initally. A Tech package and a Track package. They operated under the (imo safe) assumption that the people who were going to track the car would buy the track package. If I remember right, the packages were mutually exclusive too, meaning one could not order both for the same car.

What happened was a bunch of people ordered the Tech package, then tracked the car, overheated it and bitched and moaned about Ford not putting enough cooling in. So Ford made the Track package standard, and upped the base price on the GT350s by $8k+.

AlcantaraFTW
AlcantaraFTW New Reader
2/25/19 11:09 a.m.
z31maniac said:
Mr_Clutch42 said:

In reply to bcp2011 :

For the 15+, did they figure out how to fix the engine oil overheating? I specifically remember that being an odd problem for a new sports car.

On track, no. They need an oil cooler. So do new Miata's, Camaros, Mustangs, Corvettes, etc.

I'm not sure why this seems odd.

I think the real issue here is that Subaru specs 0w20 oil, and does not support track use like GM would. GM has language in their manuals for "if you're going to the track, switch to X oil weight, otherwise use Y".

One of the first things people suggest for tracking the twins is using a non-resource conserving 5w30 oil to help manage heat better, then installing an oil cooler later once needed. You could probably overheat that 0w20 on the street pretty easily...

te72
te72 Reader
2/27/19 10:09 p.m.

Points well made on both sides guys. I'm personally of the opinion that I'd prefer a well engineered system from the factory, not because I can't do the work, but because the factory has the resources to spec out a proper sized cooler, and buy enough of them that it is economical. They have that advantage over me, a knucklehead with a lot of theory, and just enough tools and determination to give it a shot. Fortunately in my case it seems successful for my car.

 

That said, I've heard that an engineer wants to make the best car they can, both from a performance and packaging perspective (legitimately, despite how much I curse the engineer that designed THAT part to be put in THAT spot, grr!), and they're often shut down by the marketing department of a company that tells the execs that nobody will benefit from such a design, or that they won't be able to sell it. In my experience with a few different marketing departments over the years... sounds about right. Obviously exceptions to the rule (see GM, Porsche) and I'm sure there are folks in marketing that do a fantastic job by us enthusiasts (hey, the Miata is still getting made, after all...), but in my experience they are not the norm.

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
2/28/19 8:49 a.m.

In reply to te72 :

It's for sure not the norm given we are such a tiny part of the market.  Sports cars are already rare, and then on top of that maybe 1% of people that buy sports cars actually take it to a track?  Plus a lot of us are not buyers of these sports cars when new, so we have even less influence on the products being offered by the manufacturers.  Not defending the platform, but to me what they've done is the right business decision.  What GM is doing for their track pack in terms of engineering, design, etc. has to be a money loser.  

 

racerfink
racerfink UltraDork
2/28/19 12:26 p.m.

The 2019 Camaro 2.0t 1LE comes with an oil cooler already installed.  It also gets better fuel mileage and costs LESS than the 86 GT.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/camaro/2019/2019-chevrolet-camaro-turbo-1le-first-drive-review/

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
2/28/19 12:44 p.m.
racerfink said:

The 2019 Camaro 2.0t 1LE comes with an oil cooler already installed.  It also gets better fuel mileage and costs LESS than the 86 GT.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/camaro/2019/2019-chevrolet-camaro-turbo-1le-first-drive-review/

That car is fantastic... So tempted by it, and the only thing to complain about is the extra 500lbs.  

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/28/19 2:24 p.m.
bcp2011 said:
racerfink said:

The 2019 Camaro 2.0t 1LE comes with an oil cooler already installed.  It also gets better fuel mileage and costs LESS than the 86 GT.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/camaro/2019/2019-chevrolet-camaro-turbo-1le-first-drive-review/

That car is fantastic... So tempted by it, and the only thing to complain about is the extra 500lbs.  

I'm also tempted by this as well. Although I don't know if I could actually only a Pony car with a 4cyl. I know the SS 1LE is far above my skill level and another $14k or so MSRP. There's just something weird to me about buying the 4 banger when there is a V8 available. 

I wonder how much weight could be pulled out of the car without hurting it's DD qualities.

 

They mention the Recaro's and the BOSE stereo in the article, which would raise the price of the car tested to $32,990............more than an 86GT which starts @ $28,635 + $900 for nav.

Still a lot of car for the money.

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
2/28/19 5:50 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

I think these things come with massive discounts rather than MSRP so not sure if the delta still exist out the door.  

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
2/28/19 6:25 p.m.

The Camaro gets 20 city/30 highway. My FR-S get consistent 27 city/ 34 highway...so, no.

docwyte
docwyte UltraDork
2/28/19 7:26 p.m.

That turns into an insignificant amount of money extra to spend on fuel annually.  If you want a Camaro, don't let the mpg difference stop you.

te72
te72 Reader
2/28/19 11:13 p.m.

In reply to bcp2011 :

You make a lot of good points here. Unfortunately, we are not usually the new car buyer, as it's just not economical for most of us to buy a new car AND race it. One or the other, for most of the folks I know.

 

As for GM's track packs, they may lose a bit of money, but given that it's a fringe car (I bet the Camaro is outsold by the Equinox 20:1), I can't imagine it's a bad idea. The marketing image in doing so is fantastic, if nothing else. I may not buy a Camaro, but you know what? I'd certainly recommend one if the right person was asking for my input.

 

As for comparing the 6th gen Camaro to the 86, my biggest question would be in regards to the steering feel. The 86 had excellent feedback through the wheel. I can't speak to modern Camaro steering, but the 4th gen I had, it *had* a steering wheel, that's about the most polite thing I can say about it. I didn't mind it, it wasn't BAD, but it wasn't particularly good either.

te72
te72 Reader
2/28/19 11:16 p.m.
docwyte said:

That turns into an insignificant amount of money extra to spend on fuel annually.  If you want a Camaro, don't let the mpg difference stop you.

I had this same thought the other night, about daily driving a Supra again, versus the Miata I have now. Considering it's all in town driving, and not a whole lot of it at that, does 15mpg versus 23mpg really make all that much of a difference? In my particular case, it adds up to about $150 a year more to drive a Supra. Way more rewarding, at least for me, even though I love driving the Miata too.

racerfink
racerfink UltraDork
3/1/19 5:15 a.m.
Appleseed said:

The Camaro gets 20 city/30 highway. My FR-S get consistent 27 city/ 34 highway...so, no.

My V6 Camaro consistently gets 31 highway, with a 50 mile avg best of 36.4.  My dad’s 2.0t had a 50 mile avg. best of 42.2.  When I drove it from San Antonio to Victoria, Tx., I was getting 38.  So, much like your car does better than expected numbers, the Camaro does too.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
3/1/19 8:45 a.m.
bcp2011 said:

In reply to z31maniac :

I think these things come with massive discounts rather than MSRP so not sure if the delta still exist out the door.  

Possibly, I haven't shopped them. I did look around. It looks like even on 91 a tune is worth ~40hp. A few places offering E85 kits with just an ethanol sensor, some fuel tube and a tune............which I find interesting since the GM team said they needed a bigger in-tank fuel pump to push more than about E55 in the GRM article recently.

There is one company, with very bad reviews, offering a tune/E85/turbo upgrade for $2500 that is supposed to take the engine to nearly 400hp.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
3/1/19 8:46 a.m.
te72 said:

In reply to bcp2011 :

You make a lot of good points here. Unfortunately, we are not usually the new car buyer, as it's just not economical for most of us to buy a new car AND race it. One or the other, for most of the folks I know.

 

As for GM's track packs, they may lose a bit of money, but given that it's a fringe car (I bet the Camaro is outsold by the Equinox 20:1), I can't imagine it's a bad idea. The marketing image in doing so is fantastic, if nothing else. I may not buy a Camaro, but you know what? I'd certainly recommend one if the right person was asking for my input.

 

As for comparing the 6th gen Camaro to the 86, my biggest question would be in regards to the steering feel. The 86 had excellent feedback through the wheel. I can't speak to modern Camaro steering, but the 4th gen I had, it *had* a steering wheel, that's about the most polite thing I can say about it. I didn't mind it, it wasn't BAD, but it wasn't particularly good either.

I can't speak for the turbo 4, but I did test drive an SS 1LE a year ago, all the controls and cockpit feel amazing. Throttle and steering were great as were the brakes. 

(I drove my BRZ there to test drive it)

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
3/1/19 8:47 a.m.

In reply to te72 :

On the steering feel point - I'm not sure as I haven't driven one either.  But I used to have a NA that was down to ~2100lbs and with power steering stripped away, and compared to that thing my FRS doesn't feel as sharp even with poly bushings / steering rack lockdown / dampers & springs.  So based on conversations I've had with people in the paddock it seems like weight is inversely correlated with steering feel.  Now this could be because the FRS has an electrical PS rack, or a bunch of other things, but this is why I'm so sensitive to weight.  The world just seems to be a better place when I'm in a low weight car (all relative of course). Outside of Miata/Boxster/Cayman it's hard to get anything less than 3000lbs these days. 

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
3/1/19 8:50 a.m.
z31maniac said:

Possibly, I haven't shopped them. I did look around. It looks like even on 91 a tune is worth ~40hp. A few places offering E85 kits with just an ethanol sensor, some fuel tube and a tune............which I find interesting since the GM team said they needed a bigger in-tank fuel pump to push more than about E55 in the GRM article recently.

There is one company, with very bad reviews, offering a tune/E85/turbo upgrade for $2500 that is supposed to take the engine to nearly 400hp.

I'm sure with enough time there will be options to go to 600hp or more.  I remember reading magazines in the 90s of JDM Silvias pumping out more than that from the SR20s!

racerfink
racerfink UltraDork
3/1/19 9:05 a.m.
z31maniac said:
bcp2011 said:
racerfink said:

The 2019 Camaro 2.0t 1LE comes with an oil cooler already installed.  It also gets better fuel mileage and costs LESS than the 86 GT.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/camaro/2019/2019-chevrolet-camaro-turbo-1le-first-drive-review/

That car is fantastic... So tempted by it, and the only thing to complain about is the extra 500lbs.  

I'm also tempted by this as well. Although I don't know if I could actually only a Pony car with a 4cyl. I know the SS 1LE is far above my skill level and another $14k or so MSRP. There's just something weird to me about buying the 4 banger when there is a V8 available. 

I wonder how much weight could be pulled out of the car without hurting it's DD qualities.

 

They mention the Recaro's and the BOSE stereo in the article, which would raise the price of the car tested to $32,990............more than an 86GT which starts @ $28,635 + $900 for nav.

Still a lot of car for the money.

The TRD edition, with the track suspension and Brembo’s (which makes it a 1LE competitor) starts at $33k.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
3/1/19 9:47 a.m.

Yeah, but it's a competitor on price, not on actual features. Different dampers, exhaust, "Brembos," and interior. The Camaro has engine/trans/diff coolers, "Brembos," more rubber, etc. 

If you wanted to track a twin, get the base, an oil cooler, AP brakes (which shave like 20lbs off the nose), a real suspension (Ground Control/RCE/etc), wide wheels and sticky tires, for the same $33k. Then you'd have a twin you could actually use at the track without worrying about brake fade or high oil temps.

 

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
3/1/19 11:42 a.m.

If we're talking track-only car, personally, I want the light and nimble car over the point-and-shoot bruiser.  But 99% of us aren't buying a late-model Mustang, Camaro, Miata or 86 to build a track-only car, so how enjoyable the car is to drive on the street and to live with day to day is super important.

I haven't yet driven a newer Camaro -- does it come anywhere near the driving experience of the 86 or Miata at street speeds?  The Mustang sure doesn't.

Cotton
Cotton PowerDork
3/1/19 5:22 p.m.
nderwater said:

If we're talking track-only car, personally, I want the light and nimble car over the point-and-shoot bruiser.  But 99% of us aren't buying a late-model Mustang, Camaro, Miata or 86 to build a track-only car, so how enjoyable the car is to drive on the street and to live with day to day is super important.

I haven't yet driven a newer Camaro -- does it come anywhere near the driving experience of the 86 or Miata at street speeds?  The Mustang sure doesn't.

Totally subjective of course,  but for every day duty I preferred the Mustang GT,  then Camaro SS, then the RF Miata.  I have rented all of them in the last couple of years and spent 3-4 days each.  I never rented a BRZ,  but spent some time in one my buddy owned and would probably tie it with the Miata.  Had it had a smoother engine I would have ranked a little higher.  The Miata handled great and I really liked the targa,  but it was buzzy and cramped.

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